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Subject: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Rick Tincani
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Date Posted: 20:53:35 05/12/03 Mon

Hey fellow martial artists, I have a dilema. You see I believe that I have lost my way on the way to the dinner table and I really do have an enormous "appetite for destruction."
So my question to all of you obviously is what do you consider important for self-defense/streetfighting/urban survival or whatever in todays day and age? What styles directly deal with these issues? Krav maga? TKD? Kenpo? Aikia? Hoo fang doo flying green dragon style, ha ha ha whatever? Or is the style really unimportant as long as the person has the skills and attributes gained from practice?
But also please keep in mind that the one thing that matters most, I think; is that it doesn't matter what you know if you don't have enough "gas in the tank" to accomplish your goals. So what would be some ways to condition yourself or the class to the demands of a physical attack?

Let me know please...
Rick Tincani

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[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Corey Minatani
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Date Posted: 08:42:48 05/13/03 Tue

Hey Rick, Good Question,

BTW, Rick is one of our instructors here at Freewind Dojo and is seeking information to formulate a training regimine to present towards second degree black belt, with his theme on reality self-defense.

Just a note, Rick, Big Bob, one of Kelly Worden's top students, has posted a real good topic on the WMAC forum, called scenarios. Apparently, he just got hired on as a corrections officer! So he can really tell you the ins and outs of a particular category of self-defense...maybe he could elaborate here on WRCMA?

Last night, I taught at the Freewind HQ, and talked in some detail about deconstruction theory as it relates to martial arts. To clarify, construction theory would be something like, the more techniques the better. A system that comes to mind is American Kenpo (e.g. Ed Parker Kenpo) insofar as they have around 100 some self-defense techniques to reach black belt, maybe more, depending on the instructor. The theory with construction theory is that the more techniques one has at their disposal, the more one can draw from the "database" when they are needed in a fighting scenario. Unfortunately, people's brain do not work exactly like databases, nor harddrives. The brain tend to blend things together in the inverted pyramid of knowledge and confusion and hesitation occur with the sheer amount of knowledge. Other styles outside of Kenpo, such as Shotokan and TKD, are constructionist styles as well. One may have say 12 forms to reach black belt, and another 4 to reach second degree, and another 4 to reach third degree, and so on. The question is, are the students "learning" more or just training to learn patterns until muscle memory takes over? I would argue it would be the latter, but everyone's idea of learning is different. I'm learning a new kata, but are they really?

I made the argument in class, that one could take simply a "h" form pattern (or for you arnis guys, empty hand anyo isa) and break it down in such a way that you could develop all your self defense needs within the ONE form!! How can one do this? Especially with a TKD form or another simplistic punch or block form? Well, you have to think outside the box and not be restricted to what an instructor might relate karate skills to beginners. I've heard the idea that it is a good idea to have a Beginner's mind, but you have to stop thinking like a beginner as well at some point. Get beyond the spoon feeding and the bib wearing and start using your noggin.

Now, how to break down a form to fit all your needs...well first off, lets call this deconstruction theory, next, get over the idea of freeing yourself from forms completely. In order to gain any skill, you have to repeat a particular motion, that means walking, talking, lifting, or shifting. I know Bruce Lee liked to talk about using no forms, but that was from a certain point of view, but also, he argued one should chip away the inessensals. But, not everyone is skilled as Bruce was, nor are they philosophically inclined to understand the free from forms idea, that idea was couched upon the base that his students needed as base, e.g. he didn't take anyone who wasn't already a black belt! The black meant they had to have had form before formlessness. Hence, my argument one cannot begin to get away from forms. In anycase, each style is bracketed into a particular sphere of operation or range. For example, wrestings and groundfighting operate in the grappling range, sticks and knife work operate in the weapons range, boxing operates in the punching range, TKD's kicks operate in the kicking range. Thus, you have 5 ranges: Punching, kicking, trapping, grappling, and weapons. One method of deconstruction is to get a simple technique, lets say a low block, step and punch, and see how we can reinterpret the movement into say trapping, grappling, and weapon ranges. By taking the concept of our technique out of the box in the punching and kicking ranges, we develop a new understanding and conceptual base by using our ranges as templates that superimpose themselves upon the technique to change them without having to add to the bulk of the number of techniques learned. Another way is to use our technique, lowblock, step and punch, against a myriad of attacks such as front choke, wrist grab, bear hug, takedown, etc. Some may work, many will not. The point is, exploration into what one already knows is the key, not to blindly add more technique with shallow knowledge of the movements. By deconstructing, one develops a deep and thourough knowledge of martial arts. Remember, many say, all karate moves suck because they are inefficient. I would argue that that person has not done their homework and really analyzed their material. Although martial arts is a physical skill, it is also a mental one, even things out on your training.....
[> [> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Le' Haggard
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Date Posted: 16:01:52 05/16/03 Fri

Hey Corey and Rick!

I can't answer from the MA point of view. But...Corey and I have been having this on-again-off-again discussion about potential differences in the self-defense needs and methods for women vs. men. I personally want self-defense training that addresses situations women primarily find themselves in where they would need self-defense. It isn't politically correct necessarily, but I still think there is a difference and that those should be addressed. If you are only talking about male self-defense or "general" self-defense, just ignore the rest of this. :-D

I am going to make some broad generalizations, however some of the things *I* think should be considered are:

1) Body Structure Differences – Ex: I may not be strong enough to thrash some guy, but I am flexible enough that I can move and bend in ways which guys perhaps can't. It's a "weapon in my arsenal" that I want to make the best use of. What other weapons do women have that men don't? Guys use strength and size.

2) Some Differences in "Purpose" and location of attack – Guys *generally* get beaten up in what I would consider more "social" situations...bar fights, street fights, another angry guy (or more) out for you. People are more likely to be around even if just passing on the street. Women *generally* deal with rape, domestic violence, sexual assault, and things that happen in the dark corners when no one else is around but the attacker(s). Women usually get attacked in relative "privacy" by comparison to men, in my opinion. Of course, both kinds of attack can happen to both genders and it all can escalate to getting murdered. The initial "purpose" of the attack may be different though, *generally* speaking. I would think there would be different dangers and different approaches because of the differences. There are also the ones that are irrespective of gender: muggings, car jackings, gang bangers, total nutcases, etc.

3) Different clothing issues? I still want to try and do some of these skills in heels and maybe a skirt or dress someday...I may need them on a date after all. It would be nice if I could learn how to use some of the accessories as a weapon.

Those are just three. I'm sure you can come up with plenty more. :) This is just my "two bits" from a woman trying to start into MAs for self-defense specifically.

Good Luck Rick! I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Le'
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Corey Minatani
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Date Posted: 22:51:11 05/19/03 Mon

Hey Everyone:

To comment on Le's last topic on clothes for self-defense, I've got to bring up a special topic in the use of "flexible weapons." I am thinking of this because this weekend I have to travel to Texas for a philosophy conference. Now, airports limit the use and concealment of many of my favorite implements to inflict serious damage. In short, clothing and canes (e.g. walking canes), and possibly a new version of the DTL wrench (mine is the one of the first prototypes, and it definately looks like a fist load to me) are the only weapons I can think to bring. On the clothing side, a good weapon would be the hankerchief. Master James Keating has thoroughly convinced me that a hanky with a knot (or rock, better bullet) at the end creates one hell of a snap (like the snapping of a towel) to pop out eyes, tag the throat, or crack the jimmy. It also makes a good garrote to choke individuals out. Also, Master Jeff Bray has educated me on locks and throws that can be used with dish towels! Hankys also do wonders on knife disarms and the like...the point is, I don't seriously think anyone would identify the hanky to be a weapon, especially with some green snot on it!
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Cale
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Date Posted: 02:19:39 05/26/03 Mon

Hey Guys......
Corey offers so damn much I don't know what I could offer that would be thought provoking Rick. I personally think that any style can be an effective style, as long as they are willing/able to look beyond the simplicity of the base it provides. Meaning.....every style will give you a foundation, or a point of reference to work from, but not every style has searched introspectly enough to see whether it's own self-defense regiment will transend, of translate into other areas. For example.....3 days ago I talked to a gal who is a nidan in TKD. During the discussion, I brought up the issue of flowing from a punching range to a trapping range and then into a grappling range, to which she responded...."well I never took the time to learn that stuff, I've always thought I would be easier to step back and kick them in the head." She couldn't believe all of that is in Chon-Gi. This is a perfect example of why many TKD systems tend to be less combat effective because they stifle themselves and limit themselves to a set of techniques that they believe will be sufficient to deal with all ranges without exploring if they really will or not, then modifying other techniques, or incorporating other movements to adaquately deal with the ranges the other techniques couldn't. I know that sounds confusing...but it's a reiterraion of what Sensei Minatani said. Most styles have elements of all 5 ranges in their curriculum, but don't think deeply enough to see where the connections lie. Some styles see a low block as just a low block, others see it as a block, a throw, a strike, a leg sweep, an arm bar, a joint lock, Katate Osai, cogi, a knee break, a single leg takedown, or a precursor for many other circular movements......and many, many more. The truth is almost all of this can be found inside any martial art's basic regiment/curriculum......but it isn't until you've gone and seen other things outside of that art that incorporate those lines, that you can go back to that rudamentary art and so.....Wow......look at all this stuff that is in here....I never saw that before....I didn't know I already knew that.

So form and drills train the muscles of the body to feel and be ready to execute movements that the mind has finally recognized, uncovered or made a connection with, and is now ready to implament. Knowledge is nothing without implamentation or application......so many styles today are so caught up with strick traditionalism.....that they focus only to perpetuate a cookie-cutter image of all their practitioners. They have so much knowledge to offer....but will never apply the infinate material provided that would be enough to build a fortress upon their foundation.

Short answer: You must start with a base....like TKD....then see what else is out there......Aiki, Arnis, JuJitsu, Kung Fu, GoJu, Isshin Ryu, Grappling.....then take what those things have to offer, see where those things connect and blend with your principle art, then modify your stuff to accomodate what you've learned. Make your art your own.....make it Modern to you and how you are now. Or, abandon it and say you like the other stuff you've seen better....either way you need a base first, then you can grow.

There will come a point where you will construct and construct til you can see where all the connections are and then you reach a point where you can start deconstructing, because simple things hold almost infinite meanings, so you start a path of less is more, and are on a journey or path that can eventually lead you to formlessness.

But Corey basically said all this anyway....so sorry to waste space.....I've been up for 2 days and am pretty incoherent......have a good night......Cale
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Rick
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Date Posted: 21:15:46 05/28/03 Wed

Thanks Cale, you have a few key points, I feel although; it sounds as if you are trying to be Mr. Philosophy or something.
It is good to have a base or something to compare what you learn with and to go with the more functional technique given your body type and all other external demands that may come into play. But as for the deconstruction and construction theories incorporating the concept of 5 ranges of combat it has already been given the name of Jeet Kune Do by perhaps one of the best and most visionary martial artist ever, the late Mr. Bruce Lee.

Remember the harder you train the less you may bleed
Rick
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Cale
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Date Posted: 23:38:56 05/28/03 Wed

You're right Rick, Bruce did say it best....that doesn't mean people really understand it or apply it. And don't forget, even JKD players can stagnate if they're not willing to keep seeing where the things they practice transend into other things. The minute anyone stops wanting to learn or stops trying to see new things within the art they practice....they deny themselves the fulness of one of Brucw Lee's greatest teachings.......Life Long Learning.

Earlier you mentioned something about how do you keep going when there isn't a lot of gas left in the tank.....well for me....I know before I moved to Spokane....I was running out of gas....but through my studies of GoJu Ryu.....I find I've been revitalized as I see things I've already learned equated or presented in a new context. So my answer is, as we begin to look at other arts, we can find new and fulfilling experiences learning or seeing other things come alive in our old art. So, for me GoJu has helped me see new things in Aiki, Arnis, and the freewind curriculums......and it's got the old spark going again. Maybe that's what you were after or not....I don't know....

Oh....by the way.....Corey is Mr. Philosophy.....I'm Mr. Social Worker.........hee hee......Cale
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Corey Minatani
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Date Posted: 07:27:09 05/29/03 Thu

Hey Rick:

Being "Mr. Philosophy" is the bomb. FYI, Rick, Bruce Lee was a philosophy major, most of the crap he does spout, comes from the stuff I read....I would argue that you're more philosopher, too, Rick. Your philosopher would be Hobbes, nothing but eye for eye, if I want what you have and I'm strong enough to take it, i can do so...
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Geo Hoover
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Date Posted: 13:58:44 05/30/03 Fri

Hi there Li',

It is good to see you active on these various forums,You have many good points on womens self defense, remember once you are trained you will have a stealth! Add that to your list above. This is a great subject for it own thread, I have quite a few comments to add to your thoughts if you want to start a thread on womens defense. Remember me from the "Gathering" at CWU?
[> [> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Le' Haggard
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Date Posted: 19:58:55 05/30/03 Fri

Hey Grandpa George!

Of course I remember you! Congratulations by the way on the new grandbaby I have heard about. I love discussing the woman's point of view about self-defense. I figure its the way to allow multiple people to learn from the negative experiences of one person. Hope that makes sense.

As far as starting a separate thread...I will if you think that best. However, I tend to think that part of the problem is that men aren't aware that there are differences...or at least don't think about the fact that there are. I suppose I feel like making men aware of the differences helps to build an appreciation for them..and possibly allows men to better recognize an attack against a woman when they may have missed it otherwise.

Sometimes I wonder if separating women's Self-Defense issues out into separate threads just allows them to be swept under the rug more easily. That is why I brought them up here. If you think it is best though, I will of course separate it out. : - )

By the way, I'm going to be over there tomorrow (May 31) looking for a place to live. Just a month left before I am there for years of gradschool. LOL Now just to find a home and job! I look forward to seeing you all again soon! I had a wonderful time at the Symposium here and the Seminar in Wenatchee with Datu. I'm ready to learn how to be a stealth weapon in high heels, silk, and black leather! :::big grin:::

COREY: Yeah! And he went to UW Philosophy dept! Heeheee.

Good Stuff Folks!

Le'
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Rick
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Date Posted: 19:27:33 06/03/03 Tue

Ok everybody thanks for all the posts. I was reading my first post and I think that in order to be effective in self defense or anything else you must have strength. The strength or will as some may call it to pick yourself up and endure, to adapt, to win at all costs, to get up in the morning, hehe; to keep coming back despite poor conditions or a bad enviroment. Get the idea?
Now as Li' pointed out from a womans point of view women are generally not as physically strong as men but have stealth "secrets" to employ. I agree with the stealthy point but do not forget that to survive a confrontation you do not need to look like a pro - wrestler when everyone has simple skills and gifts that can always be improved. Such as the gift of gab, I believe that many physical confrontations may be diffused verbally where everyone walks away a winner; or as was mentioned, flexibility, since it is hard to control an opponent who might be wiggling out of an attacker's best efforts to control them; or if all else fails a simple slap that the youngest or oldest of people have no doubt perfected in preschool which would be extremely effective if properly positioned, say for instance to the throat region which would stop somebody in their tracks and yet do no real physical damage.
As for my statement, "that you may know all the martial arts in the world but would be helpless unless you had "the gas in the tank"" I was referring to physical training and conditioning, which supringly is somewhat essential for a meaningful and enjoyable life; that allows you to evade and/or escape, to withstand physical strikes and to hit back if you choose.
So I am sorry to the readers of this forum for failing to provide the above mentioned opinions but I guess I answered my own question in a way. Thanks for maKing me think.
Rick
[> Subject: Re: what skills are needed for effective self defense?


Author:
Corey Minatani
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Date Posted: 20:00:03 06/03/03 Tue

Hey Rick:

Good post, I think many times our own reflections sometimes help us answer the questions we most desire to know. Some religions meditate to get to the level of no-mind, implying that the mind sometimes has too much to process at one time through the various media we are are exposed to each day.

About the power to pick yourself up, Jack used to call this Indomitable Will. I've seen this many times when he has been beaten down, or having an asthma attack, only to lift himself from his own bootstraps to wail on one of the students. As far as I know, this is a TKD tenent. But in some respects, Datu Worden through his domestication discussion via Renegade JKD tape and Bruce Lee I think would agree this indomitable will is what gets us through the real deal. The idea being if there is 30 guys attacking you, you have the mindset to break and destroy every last one of the bastards. In a sense, this creates that no-mind to use in battle situations. Keeping your mind off the pain to follow through the objective.

Rick your post about strength in regards to Le' is right on target. Bruce Lee would state, efficiency is anything that scores. You take their eyes or balls, its a valid technique, misses are the only mistakes.


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