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Subject: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Liam Graham
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Date Posted: 11:10:05 05/25/04 Tue

Hello, everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. Some of you may recognize me from Datu Worden's forum, as I often post there. I've just joined the WRCMA, and am very much looking forward to the upcoming conference and video courses. I'm also very excited at the chance to learn about Shihan Annesi's Aiki Ju-jutsu. I currently train in Aikido (among other things), and do that precisely because there is no Ju-jutsu dojo that is near my work or home. I've contacted Corey Sensei to arrange to come over periodically for some private lessons study Aiki Jujutsu, and also to help me transition what I learn from Aikido into Jujutsu.

Anyway, that's it for my intro, I guess. I'd love to see anything Aiki-related posted here for us all to share and discuss.

Respectfully,
Liam

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Corey Minatani
[Edit]

Date Posted: 23:58:07 05/25/04 Tue

ok, I start off. What do you guys think about aiki? What do you know about it, or not know about it? What kind of styles are considered aiki?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Liam Graham
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:20:53 05/26/04 Wed

Hi, Sensei,

With my current involvement in Aikido, and my desire to train in Aiki jujutsu, I get the feeling that aiki means different things in those two realms. At least, it has become something different in Aikido, regardless of how it was first envisioned by the founder, O-Sensei Ueshiba (who probably changed it himself as time went by, and he leaned more to the religious and pacifist side of things). In Aikido today, it seems to have a lot to do with blending and harmonization of energy, or ki. You blend with your attacker, and seek a harmonious end to the dispute, whether this is a street fight or an argument. I get the sense that , for example, a Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu sense of aiki would be more along the lines of sensing and nullifying your opponent's ki and attacks, rather than blending ... or maybe nullifying it 'through' blending ... but without the requirement that the end be 'harmonious' in the Aikido way. That's totally conjecture on my part, as I admit that my only experience currently is through Aikido. I'll throw in a paraphrase of a quote from a Daito Ryu master that I read somewhere online recently: "If I throw you and you smile, that's Aikido; if I throw you and you scream, that's Daito Ryu."

One thing I am very curious about is what constitutes the difference between simply 'Jujutsu' and 'Aiki Jujutsu'. The addition of aiki, obviously, but what does that really mean? Was Daito Ryu Jujutsu simply the range of physical techniques that Takeda Sensei taught before he added aiki concepts into the mix?

As far as arts considered aiki, all I know are Aikido and Aiki Jujutsu in their various forms ... but my knowledge is limited. I do know that various schools of Aikido differ dramatically, from some Ki Society dojos that simply meditate on the mats while wearing their gis, without any of the physical art, to harder sub-styles, such as Nihon Goshin Aikido, which is much closer to the Aiki Jujutsu roots.

As far as what I think about aiki, I want to understand, feel and experience it in as wide a range as possible. I think there are situations in which the Aikido approach is superior, and situations in which a harder, Aiki Jujutsu approach would be superior. I was fortunate enough to be Dan McConnell's uke for his session at Water & Steel last year, and he showed a very cool progression. He started with Iriminage in a gentle Aikido sense, then progressed through a Jujutsu approach, finally connecting Modern Arnis knife techniques, but all flowing from the same movement. He described it sort of as an escalation, starting with uke as 'My Good Friend', then moving on to 'My Drunken Uncle', who needs some firmer convincing to behave, then on into true criminals attacking, requiring deadly force.

Anyway, I've probably rambled on for long enough. That's my beginner's take on things, and I look forward to learning more!

Respectfully,
Liam

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[> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Eric
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:38:09 10/28/04 Thu

I think aiki is a great martial art. I think it is kind of like tie chi. I know that most aiki is soft.

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[> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Corey Minatani
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:26:37 05/31/04 Mon

The argument deciding the differences between jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aikido are all semantical. Meaning, the name is the only problem, not the technique. This is a fairly involved answer, and I will try to explain.

All (-do) arts (e.g. aiki-do, ju-do, and karate-do) are modern variants of older warrior arts. The (-do) represents a more peaceful or philosophical way which could be self-defense, but could also mean, character building, self-improvement, harmony between various people, etc. From as early as the late 1800s to 1945 (end of WWII) you see many schools (ryu) switching over to -do methodology rather than a jutsu (technique based) methodology. In the -do methodology one might see an ethics, philosophical, or in the case of aikido, a religious bent to it rather than a jutsu methodology soley for use in combat situations.

Hence, field combat jujutsu is totally useless for urban situations because we don't go against katanas, halberds, attacks on horseback, etc. Likewise, urban self defense is useless in ancient field combat due to opponents wearing armor and such. So, there is one distinction.

Ok, now, Judo, aikido, and aikijujutsu are all derivitives of jujutsu in some way or another. Scholars use the term jujutsu as striking, kicking, throwing, locking, and blocking art. But jujutsu by itself means yeilding technique, but again, the term is so generic, it isn't helpful. Also, there are about 10 or so Japanese equivilent words comparable to the term, jujutsu. (We will cover this in great detail in the aiki online class!) So unless it says something like "x"-ryu jujutsu, you're not going to get anything out of it besides the idea its some sort of martial art. Now, some karate styles derive from jujutsu as well, as did aikijujutsu, judo, and aikido. So to your question that aiki slapped in front describes the methodology is slightly misleading.

Now, each ryu will emphasize and de-emphasize particular techniques and methodologies, as does any martial art today. Judo is a collection of the most common jujutsu systems around during the time, and many of the jujutsu ryu came together to form judo (which became a sport and a -do to for a better use in society than a field combat use). Judo is a relatively safe sport, but before the gathering of systems, jujutsu was on its way out as a form of combat. No one wanted to take massive damage such as broken limbs and such during times of peace.

A side bar is that many of the aikijujutsu schools did not join this conversion into judo for some unknown reason. Probably because aikijujutsu systems in general were more selective in choosing students, and more secretive in teaching the techniques as per Clan tradition. For example, many clans back in the day, fought against each other, and by developing and keeping various techniques secret, the clan could hold an advantage on the battlefield or in the castle for defense.

For aikido was known only as aikido sometime after WWII. Students before WWII were given certificates on Uyeshiba's art as Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, Aikijujutsu, and some got Daito-ryu jujutsu, and some got Uyeshiba jujutsu and aikijutsu. So, typically, there are accounts that the names don't matter too much. But the shift of Uyeshiba emphasizing more fluidity, more circular lines, and less aggressiveness would be more to his liking to emphasize such over the more combat related aikijutsu. Notice I did not say "harder." What ever aiki system one studies, the aiki is always in there, but some schools will teach it at various levels, for instance, aikijujutsu will start with a more combative structure geared to break and popthings out of joint, include striking, etc. But that is the base. All judo and aikido have this base, but depending on the use of the system, will empasize other things. Judo a sport (breaking is bad news when you put a lot of $$ into athletes) and aikido emphasizes less harmful techniques (this is good, because the society doesn't want vigillantes running around, and people can get sued over the use of aggressive force). Aikijutsu teaches the techniques as a whole, the individual, not the style, will dictate when and what technique to use at a particular time.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Corey Minatani
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:50:47 05/31/04 Mon

Now to continue, certain aiki-systems such as aikijujutsu will hold off on the more aiki techniques to save as Okuden (or secret teachings) for the advanced students. Additionally, aiki techniques are easier to learn, but harder to apply in some cases. Which is why some jujutsu systems didn't put a lot of faith into them, but the techniques were advances in the art itself, so it was kept alive through the curriculum. Some aiki techniques required massive amounts of timing and confidence, this can be seen by the majority of Aikido practitioners, whent he technique doesn't quite jive, they force or slam the adversary (hence, they go back to the jujutsu base). Which is ok, but it seves as a point that aiki all the time aint the way to go.

Now, about the topic of pain determining aikijujutsu is nonsense. Aikido uses shiho nage, kote gaeshi, sankyo, yonkyo, nikyo and ikkyo, all of which could make men cry, do we then suggest that they are suddenly doing now aikijujutsu? Or conversely, hard jujutsu stylist who wear hakama doing aiki due to their clothing? Seems silly, but people do carry these kinds of sterotypes.

From my research I've surmized the following:

Jujutsu is a base form of fighting that gives base to karate, aikido, judo, and aikijujutsu.

Aikijujutsu is a field combat art, derived from jujutsu, emphasizing a great catalog of techniques that has a conjunction or infusion of kenjutsu (Sokaku Takeda, the founder of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu has first and foremost, a kenjutsu man). He kept the techniques more military style in teaching, letting the student make the choice of how they used it. Saying so, various other arts stemmed from Takeda-ha Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Hakkoryu Jujutsu (who emphasizes less pain that does aikido), Daiyoshin-ryu Aikijujutsu/jujutsu, Aikido (the world's most popular form of aiki), Yanagi-ryu Aikijujutsu (most subtle), Roppokai Daito-Ryu aikijujutsu (softest and less painfull), Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Kodo-Kai (These guys are into the pain, maybe where you got the quote), Kamishin-ryu Aikijujutsu (Shihan Church's sub-style), and Takeshin Aikijujutsu (a reformulation of Kamishin-ryu aikijujutsu with an infusion of principles from Don Angier and Tony Annesi).

Aikido: A branch of aikijujutsu that emphasized circular lines and fluidity (some say from Uyeshiba's spear training) against Sokaku Takeda's Kenjutsu training. For example, some would argue that Uyeshiba was not a good kenjutsu stylist, but with a spear he was a madman. Very few aikidoists will research back to aikijutsu lines that stem from kenjutsu lines. For example, Gakky Homma is the only one I know of that has books describing how aikido movements also correlate with traditional kenjutsu lines.

Ok, hope this helps Liam, sorry for the wait. Let me know if I forgot anything, or something is not clear.

Corey Minatani

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Liam Graham
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:00:43 06/01/04 Tue

Hi, Corey Sensei,

Thanks for the detailed replies!

I still don't get a sense of what led to Takeda Sensei adding 'aiki' to the name of his art. You said: "So to your question that aiki slapped in front describes the methodology is slightly misleading. " I don't quite get what you're saying here: you're saying my question was misleading? I may not have worded my inquiry very well: I'm just wondering what were the factors that led Takeda to change the name of his family art ... did the name change parallel an evolution in the art? And what were the differences between the art 'before' and 'after'? Or, alternately, did he always practice aiki, but just chose at some point to add aiki to the title of the art?

Thanks for the points about Takeda's Kenjutsu versus Ueshiba's spear! Very cool, and I plan on doing some follow-up research on that. Speaking of weapons, I do know that Shihonage finally made sense to me when Sensei demonstrated it as sword cuts ... seems that a lot of the art can be referenced via weapons ...

Regarding the quote, and the issue of pain determining whether something is aikido or aiki jujutsu: that was not my intended point. It's not pain, but the concern for the well-being of the attacker. Aikido can definitely hurt! Obviously, in a training situation, we as nage do not want to excessively abuse our uke, but in real life, aikido maintains that the well-being of a truly criminal attacker is a central concern. From what I understand, that is a difference when compared to styles such as Daito Ryu, which would not have the same 'harmonious concern' for the attacker. Is this on the right track, or have I missed the boat?

Thank you very much for the information about the various Jujutsu styles and their characteristics. It helps me place them in context, after seeing the names but not really understanding the subtleties of their differences.

Finally, thanks very much for the following synopsis, as it describes exactly what I have hoped for in Aiki Jujutsu: "Aikijutsu teaches the techniques as a whole, the individual, not the style, will dictate when and what technique to use at a particular time." That ties things in nicely for me, and really brings it into the Natural Spirit realm. I love the thought of having access to the whole of the techniques, and being able to develop as an individual, capable of and responsible for choosing a path.

Thank you very much for the dialog!

Respectfully,
Liam

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Gan Uesli Starling
[Edit]

Date Posted: 14:07:08 07/18/04 Sun

Here in Kalamazoo a long time ago I had used to take Hakko Ryu Jujutsu under Sensei Hrenovich. Sadly I had to give it up after little more than a year due both wrists being sprained all the time such that I could not lift a cup of coffee except two-handed, and that was distractingly painful. In short, it interfered with my livelihood.

Several years passed. Then I took Moo Duk Kwan for again just over a year until a couple of ribs got broken, likewise interfering with work just at the time when I was making a change-of-career.

Several years more did pass. Happily, now for a year I have been taking Seibukan Jujutsu at the West Michigan Budokan. But classes were only once a week. Not enough to satisfy. So in addition I only just recently started studying Ninjutsu in tandem at this same academy. The classes are back-to-back on Saturdays with extra days for Ninjutsu during the week.

Seibukan, alas, has failed to attract very many students. Therefor Shidoshi Robert Bessler now is steering our curriculum toward "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-Jutsu". So this latter and Ninjutsu are my current persuits. All this I give by way of personal introduction so that you may plumb the depths of my ignorance and not reply above my level of foreknowledge and understanding.

My question is: Can anyone please address the subject of "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-Jutsu" and how it relates historically, metaphysically, et cetera to the other arts?

With all due respect to my own sensei, I often find it illuminating to gather sources from far and wide. If nothing else it helps me to better know which questions I had ought to ask. And among the very, very few sites which GOOGLE turned up under the keyword 'aiki no jutsu', this site looked to be the most serious and informative. I thank you.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Gan Uesli Starling
[Edit]

Date Posted: 19:03:58 12/31/06 Sun

I never was able to validate any references to this "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-jutsu" by means of the Internet or any other source. Those few sources who saw fit to comment on my inquiry about its legitimacy expressed strong incredulity, however.

Although the cirricula seemed genuine enough while I was taking it, Mr. Bessler's extreme animosity to my also taking Tae Kwon Do (a continuing interest of mine since 1973) plus a few other factors about his teaching style combined to persuaded me to give it up. I would still be interested to learn of this, apparently otherwise un-heard of style "Takeda-ha Aiki-no-jutsu" or of its GM "Kenshinsai Machida". Feel free to contact me via email with any info.

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[> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Corey Minatani
[Edit]

Date Posted: 00:00:44 06/10/04 Thu

Liam:

Sorry for missing the response.

You were not correct, per se, but most individuals tend to use aiki too commonly. If we were to take the romanji translations aikijujutsu and aikido, as far as techniques would go, would be the same. If you go back to what I was saying about -do arts, they are a more modern version of a -jutsu system. The modern versions add ethics, aesthetics, and tie into modern law. This is in contrast to -jutsu systems that did not take that stuff into consideration, because most -jutsu systems are considered tools for war, back then, no Geneva convention rules of engagement. Coursely, one could equate Aiki-jujutsu and aikido to the likes of hand-to-hand combat in the ARMY and hand-t0-hand made for the civillian sector. For the latter, you have to incorporate societal functions into the equation where restraint and compassion might come into play. So the guy who attacks the civilian might be wanting to kick ass, kill you, rob you, rape you, might be a relative, or any combination of such. On the battlefield, and of battlefield arts, the guy is trying to kill you, so the variables are simpler and more direct. This is not to suggest that aikido is not as good as aikijujutsu or vice versa. It just means they were designed with different parameters in mind. Kinda like tools, a hammer is good for one thing, and wrench is good for something else. We, as scholars, shouldn't compare apples to oranges, but understanding the context of each art is very helpful.

Corey Minatani

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[> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Corey Minatani
[Edit]

Date Posted: 00:15:46 06/10/04 Thu

Liam:

The harmonious concern is central to aikido, that is because it is a -do art, not a -jutsu. -do arts add in harmonious concern. Aikijujutsu can have that, its just up to the defender, aikijujutsu makes no claims nor does it demand the level of force to be used, it understands each person is different and will use their aiki in whatever way or the situation presents itself. In short, aikido's concern is for both nage (defender, or tori (in aikijujutsu)) and uke (receiver, or uke (in aikijujutsu)). The uke thing for aikijujutsu was a joke...

Aikijujutsu's main concern is for the defender only. IF the aikijujutsuka decides to show mercy, that is up to her. But in either case, the aiki- prefix should denote the way the technique is executed, in that sense, both arts will use the path of least resistance and highest efficiency in that regard. I would argue that aiki- prefix is sometimes confused due to so many translations of aiki into harmonious, blend might be better. We get the same thing in jujutsu, the ju- prefix sometimes translated as soft, which might be better off called pliable or flexible, but flexible in the sense that they can respond to almost anything, not the description of the technique. If you watch jujutsu guys, they break stuff and slam people, hardly soft or pliable techniques!!

As to the question of why Daito changed from aikijujutsu, aikijutsu, or jujutsu is probably just on a whim. Some Daito people classify techniques as aiki no jutsu, aikijujutsu, and jujutsu type of techniques. Jujutsu being basic, but easily learned and aiki no jutsu being very esoteric and having few real applications, but containing really cool ideas, and aikijutsu in the middle working a bit of both. Many jujutsu historians note that aikijutsu is just another jujutsu style, nothing more. They may have tacked on aiki, to differentiate themselves from the Jigoro Kano monopoly on jujutsu systems being absorbed into forming judo. No one knows, and Sokaku never told anyone. If we had time to cross reference many of the surviving jujutsu systems, I bet we would find many of the techniques in Daito, based in other ryu of jujutsu styles.

Corey Minatani

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[> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu


Author:
Tony Annesi
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:41:17 06/10/04 Thu

Hi Corey & Liam,
I normally don't post to a lot of sites (too much to do and too little of interest) but Liam's aiki-ju-jutsu question caught my eye.
There were two strains of ju-jutsu in old Japan: an indigenous strain (that developed into aiki arts) and a younger strain that had two origins, one of which was China, the other Japan. The latter strain merged and developed numerous ju-jutsu styles. The former strain, although probably influenced by other styles as most styles are, developed separately among the upper classes. This strain was known at various times by various names: Oshiki-uchi, for example.
Its putative orgins were in the royal court aorund 800 AD but that can't be completely verified. Its later development was in the "Great Eastern" style (Daito-ryu) of the Takeda family.
Sokaku TAKEDA taught various techniques to various students in various parts of Japan. That is why we now have numerous styles of aiki-ju-jutsu. One of his students was Kotaro YOSHIDA who introduced Morihei UESHIBA to TAKEDA.
UESHIBA studied for a condensed time under TAKEDA and then went on to found Ueshiba-ha Aiki-ju-jutsu, later changed to Ueshiba Aikidbudo, later changed to Aikido. Aikido is therefore a cousin art to various styles of Aiki-ju-jutsu.
The term "aiki" was used, in passing, in a technical document (I assume from the Daito-ryu) and, I suppose, because it was unique, became identified with the Daito-ryu strain.
Nowadays Daito divides its techniques into Ju-jutsu, Aiki-ju-jutsu and Aiki-no-jutsu.
Daito is a ju-jutsu but from a totally different strain than the Kito-ryu and Tenshin Shin'yo ryu ju-jutsu that spawned Judo.
Hope that helps.

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