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Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu Author: Corey Minatani [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 12:50:47 05/31/04 Mon In reply to: Corey Minatani 's message, "Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu" on 12:26:37 05/31/04 Mon Now to continue, certain aiki-systems such as aikijujutsu will hold off on the more aiki techniques to save as Okuden (or secret teachings) for the advanced students. Additionally, aiki techniques are easier to learn, but harder to apply in some cases. Which is why some jujutsu systems didn't put a lot of faith into them, but the techniques were advances in the art itself, so it was kept alive through the curriculum. Some aiki techniques required massive amounts of timing and confidence, this can be seen by the majority of Aikido practitioners, whent he technique doesn't quite jive, they force or slam the adversary (hence, they go back to the jujutsu base). Which is ok, but it seves as a point that aiki all the time aint the way to go. Now, about the topic of pain determining aikijujutsu is nonsense. Aikido uses shiho nage, kote gaeshi, sankyo, yonkyo, nikyo and ikkyo, all of which could make men cry, do we then suggest that they are suddenly doing now aikijujutsu? Or conversely, hard jujutsu stylist who wear hakama doing aiki due to their clothing? Seems silly, but people do carry these kinds of sterotypes. From my research I've surmized the following: Jujutsu is a base form of fighting that gives base to karate, aikido, judo, and aikijujutsu. Aikijujutsu is a field combat art, derived from jujutsu, emphasizing a great catalog of techniques that has a conjunction or infusion of kenjutsu (Sokaku Takeda, the founder of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu has first and foremost, a kenjutsu man). He kept the techniques more military style in teaching, letting the student make the choice of how they used it. Saying so, various other arts stemmed from Takeda-ha Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Hakkoryu Jujutsu (who emphasizes less pain that does aikido), Daiyoshin-ryu Aikijujutsu/jujutsu, Aikido (the world's most popular form of aiki), Yanagi-ryu Aikijujutsu (most subtle), Roppokai Daito-Ryu aikijujutsu (softest and less painfull), Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Kodo-Kai (These guys are into the pain, maybe where you got the quote), Kamishin-ryu Aikijujutsu (Shihan Church's sub-style), and Takeshin Aikijujutsu (a reformulation of Kamishin-ryu aikijujutsu with an infusion of principles from Don Angier and Tony Annesi). Aikido: A branch of aikijujutsu that emphasized circular lines and fluidity (some say from Uyeshiba's spear training) against Sokaku Takeda's Kenjutsu training. For example, some would argue that Uyeshiba was not a good kenjutsu stylist, but with a spear he was a madman. Very few aikidoists will research back to aikijutsu lines that stem from kenjutsu lines. For example, Gakky Homma is the only one I know of that has books describing how aikido movements also correlate with traditional kenjutsu lines. Ok, hope this helps Liam, sorry for the wait. Let me know if I forgot anything, or something is not clear. Corey Minatani [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu Author: Liam Graham [Edit] Date Posted: 01:00:43 06/01/04 Tue Hi, Corey Sensei, Thanks for the detailed replies! I still don't get a sense of what led to Takeda Sensei adding 'aiki' to the name of his art. You said: "So to your question that aiki slapped in front describes the methodology is slightly misleading. " I don't quite get what you're saying here: you're saying my question was misleading? I may not have worded my inquiry very well: I'm just wondering what were the factors that led Takeda to change the name of his family art ... did the name change parallel an evolution in the art? And what were the differences between the art 'before' and 'after'? Or, alternately, did he always practice aiki, but just chose at some point to add aiki to the title of the art? Thanks for the points about Takeda's Kenjutsu versus Ueshiba's spear! Very cool, and I plan on doing some follow-up research on that. Speaking of weapons, I do know that Shihonage finally made sense to me when Sensei demonstrated it as sword cuts ... seems that a lot of the art can be referenced via weapons ... Regarding the quote, and the issue of pain determining whether something is aikido or aiki jujutsu: that was not my intended point. It's not pain, but the concern for the well-being of the attacker. Aikido can definitely hurt! Obviously, in a training situation, we as nage do not want to excessively abuse our uke, but in real life, aikido maintains that the well-being of a truly criminal attacker is a central concern. From what I understand, that is a difference when compared to styles such as Daito Ryu, which would not have the same 'harmonious concern' for the attacker. Is this on the right track, or have I missed the boat? Thank you very much for the information about the various Jujutsu styles and their characteristics. It helps me place them in context, after seeing the names but not really understanding the subtleties of their differences. Finally, thanks very much for the following synopsis, as it describes exactly what I have hoped for in Aiki Jujutsu: "Aikijutsu teaches the techniques as a whole, the individual, not the style, will dictate when and what technique to use at a particular time." That ties things in nicely for me, and really brings it into the Natural Spirit realm. I love the thought of having access to the whole of the techniques, and being able to develop as an individual, capable of and responsible for choosing a path. Thank you very much for the dialog! Respectfully, Liam [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu Author: Gan Uesli Starling [Edit] Date Posted: 14:07:08 07/18/04 Sun Here in Kalamazoo a long time ago I had used to take Hakko Ryu Jujutsu under Sensei Hrenovich. Sadly I had to give it up after little more than a year due both wrists being sprained all the time such that I could not lift a cup of coffee except two-handed, and that was distractingly painful. In short, it interfered with my livelihood. Several years passed. Then I took Moo Duk Kwan for again just over a year until a couple of ribs got broken, likewise interfering with work just at the time when I was making a change-of-career. Several years more did pass. Happily, now for a year I have been taking Seibukan Jujutsu at the West Michigan Budokan. But classes were only once a week. Not enough to satisfy. So in addition I only just recently started studying Ninjutsu in tandem at this same academy. The classes are back-to-back on Saturdays with extra days for Ninjutsu during the week. Seibukan, alas, has failed to attract very many students. Therefor Shidoshi Robert Bessler now is steering our curriculum toward "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-Jutsu". So this latter and Ninjutsu are my current persuits. All this I give by way of personal introduction so that you may plumb the depths of my ignorance and not reply above my level of foreknowledge and understanding. My question is: Can anyone please address the subject of "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-Jutsu" and how it relates historically, metaphysically, et cetera to the other arts? With all due respect to my own sensei, I often find it illuminating to gather sources from far and wide. If nothing else it helps me to better know which questions I had ought to ask. And among the very, very few sites which GOOGLE turned up under the keyword 'aiki no jutsu', this site looked to be the most serious and informative. I thank you. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Aiki Ju-jutsu Author: Gan Uesli Starling [Edit] Date Posted: 19:03:58 12/31/06 Sun I never was able to validate any references to this "Takeda-ha Enshin Ryu Aiki-no-jutsu" by means of the Internet or any other source. Those few sources who saw fit to comment on my inquiry about its legitimacy expressed strong incredulity, however. Although the cirricula seemed genuine enough while I was taking it, Mr. Bessler's extreme animosity to my also taking Tae Kwon Do (a continuing interest of mine since 1973) plus a few other factors about his teaching style combined to persuaded me to give it up. I would still be interested to learn of this, apparently otherwise un-heard of style "Takeda-ha Aiki-no-jutsu" or of its GM "Kenshinsai Machida". Feel free to contact me via email with any info. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]