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Date Posted: 23/05/07 10:29:06pm
Author: Madam K
Subject: Re: Menstruation... yes I'm talking about blood from the womb!
In reply to: Dragonbird 's message, "Re: Menstruation... yes I'm talking about blood from the womb!" on 22/05/07 4:28:22pm



Mark I am delighted that you have chosen to respond to my post. I’m genuinely excited to see that someone is presenting an alternative viewpoint to launch a discussion regarding this topic. I have given a lot of thought in response to your post, as you will see by the length and somewhat depth I go into to further this discussion in what I hope will be a productive manner. As it is a rather length post I have taken the liberty of placing three asterixis to denote the end of what I consider to be a theme in the discussion to aid in the ease of reading my post.

First of all I would like to take this opportunity to say I honour the passion you exhibited in your response. I would also like to speak in defence of my post as well as further the discussion that has been generated regarding men and women’s business, menstruation, semen and the relative topics.

To quote your first statement “Well !! You may not intend to rant against men as you put it, but that is exactly what you have done…”. The first point I will agree upon. It was not the intention of my post to rant against men or women. I did not set out to alienate or put down men or women. If the execution of my post failed to support my intention I apologise.

I guess the statement I made that I did not intend to rant against men was not enough to put pause to any thoughts I may have been ranting against men as I intrinsically do not believe it is the fault of men in general that has led to our present views on menstruation but that it is a multitude of different situations, teachings and beliefs that parts of humankind, in the Western world particularly, that have led to today’s negative perceptions regarding menstruation.

I am not an expert on writing and am still learning to express my thoughts in a way that clearly communicates my ideas to everyone. It’s a feat few have accomplished, as everything is open to interpretation, but I will continue to improve the way I communicate. I appreciate the opportunity for self examination and improvement and would welcome any exact examples in my post you could provide which can be perceived as being a rant against men and a short explanation as to how it is that the text may be misinterpreted as a rant against men and women.

I can see that my example of comparing Bill Clinton with a hypothetical but generalised female situation could be perceived in this way. However as I am presently unable to see exactly where I can be seen as ranting I would appreciate any quotes of my post you can provide. Perhaps my passion at the time of writing came across as ire and not enthusiasm.

If I wasn’t clear regarding the intention of my post I will state it now. I hoped to provide an opportunity for people to take a moment to review their own perceptions on menstruation and offer an alternative point of view from which they could pursue further examination of the subject if they so chose to.

***

“,& more. You also raved against women, unwittingly perhaps, but what else is one to expect? Women will always feel badly about their own bodies & menstruation, as long as there are people like yourself who insist upon keeping it only as 'womens' business'!”

Again my intention was not to rave against women. If this is what other people perceive then I have done so unwittingly as you have clearly pointed out. To anyone who was offended by my post I can only apologise for my lack of expertise in communication as I did not intentionally seek to rant against women, I will attempt to be clearer in my communication from now on and strive to gain a deeper understanding of the alternative view points this discussion raises in order to better my own understanding and journey of knowledge.

Mark, women’s business is not something that is usually linked with the degradation of women in their perception of body and their menstrual cycle. I very much doubt and can find no evidence where this would be the case. If you can perhaps expand on this concept then please do so as I would like the opportunity to refine my own views.

If I may be a little presumptuous, what I can gather your concern seems to stem from the exclusion of genders from one another’s “business”. A lot of the ancient and indigenous cultures teach that there is a time and a place for men’s and women’s business and then there is a time and a place to share the wisdom gained in the times of the latter. Some cultures have taboos and laws prohibiting this exchange of gender business, but perhaps in this day and age the sharing of this wisdom is what’s needed to produce a more cohesive existence.

From what I understand, Women’s Business and Men’s Business is not about trying to pit one sex against the other to see who is the better and who should wield power over the other. It is simply a term that refers to the exploration and celebration of the wisdom carried within each gender by those of the corresponding genders. What part of this wisdom that can be conveyed can then be gifted to the other gender in the hopes of bettering humans as a whole. Much compassion and patience is necessary during these processes as there is a lot of healing and obstacles in communication to overcome.

As I will not know what it is to be a man in this life, so too will you never know what it is to be a woman in this life, to feel the shame a western culture generally associates with my bleeding, of the deep embarrassment I’ve felt at times when I’ve bled onto an office chair at work or through my school uniform as a teenager or through my jeans in the shopping centre, the frustration at having to scrub the stains from my sheets only to have a “ghost” of it remain there for what seems like ages reminding me of how messy and disgraceful I am, the worry I’ve gone through as I’ve suffered irregular periods due to polycystic ovarian syndrome or thought I may have been pregnant, the utter agony I’ve experienced at some times with period cramps, the depression I suffered in relation to my perception of having a dysfunctional uterus and ovaries, the absent mindedness that has affected my work performance at times and ability to function in normal daily activities, the awkward way in which my mother has tried to educate and support me throughout the years, the wonderment of hearing the girl who first got her period at school talk about her experience and the resulting jealousy, and the joy I felt reclaiming my female cycle in recent times after a long period of hating my menstrual cycle as it represented everything that was potentially wrong with my ability to conceive. I presume these are experiences a man will not be able to experience first hand, however I know there are things I will never experience first hand as a woman that most men will undergo.

My experience is unique and different to what every other woman has gone through. However, we have things in common regarding this aspect of womanhood, which can only stem from the experiences we’ve had. There is a deep bond and a deep wisdom that flows through these experiences that is extremely empowering and is something I can imagine would be difficult to share in it’s entirety with a man, not through an unwillingness to be shared, but just from the simple fact we are different in some ways biologically and the felt instinct of wisdom that is difficult if not downright impossible to put into words, that will always present an obstacle to doing this.

The best I can do with regards to what can be regarded as Men’s business is show compassion for men and a willingness to learn what I can from the wisdom they have discovered in their own shared experience throughout their life’s journey as a man and a human being. Of course this can only be achieved if we open communication between the men and women’s wisdom that has been reclaimed and show patience while we try to communicate a lot of wisdom that is felt and not necessarily processed mentally.

I would never consciously promote the perception within a woman that her body and menstrual cycle is something she should feel badly about. At present I do not believe there is harm in the perception I currently hold of women’s and men’s business, but my understanding may change as I continue on my knowledge-gathering journey in life. I am always excited to pin point changes in my knowledge and see the evolution of my understanding as is grows and deepens. Sometimes my ego gets bruised in the process, but I’m learning to deal with my ego and it’s need to always be right by trying to show a little humility and a willingness to comprehend different points of view.

***

How can semen be only mens business, when both genders need & use it to procreate & continue the species? I will endeavour to answer this question using what limited knowledge I have on men’s and women’s business, I cannot profess to be an expert in any way and would welcome anyone else’s input regarding this.

Of course Semen is not strictly men’s business. It is neither the exception to nor the whole of men’s business either, and it’s relevance to the physical act of procreation is of course as important to women as it is to the whole of human kind.

To place my comment into context, the idea was raised briefly in conversation during a break at the workshop. We presumed Semen to be the male equivalent to menstruation, the Semen workshop was merely an idea on what form of vehicle men may choose to use if they chose to create a similar workshop to the one we were then attending on menstruation.

Our reasoning that Semen is the male equivalent to Menstruation can possibly come down to some similarities between these two entities and could possibly be explained as follows:

A girl is usually considered to have left childhood when she menstruates, similarly a boy is considered having left childhood after his first ejaculation…. But this of course is open to discussion.

Menstruation and Ejaculation both generally denote the individual as having the ability to procreate.

Menstruation leaves the female sexual organ as the semen also leaves the male sexual organ.

Menstrual blood usually carries an egg that holds half of the necessary ingredients to creating life. Semen also usually carries the sperm which hold half of the necessary ingredients to creating life.

There is shame and disgust at menstrual blood marking anything, there is also a similar reaction to semen marking anything.

The one marked difference I can see is that menstrual blood isn’t as easily linked with a sexual act as semen is, but from what I’ve heard semen can sometimes be produced without an intentional sexual act.

However if you have a differing view perhaps you would be willing to share what your view is here in the forum.

As we were women, we felt we were not qualified to dictate exactly what men may or may not choose to use if any man chose to pursue this course of action in anyway and saw this discussion as mere conjecture at any rate. I believe it would be rather patronising to attempt to council men on how they should go about reclaiming their wisdom, indeed how can we even presume that they may even have the need to reclaim any wisdom at all.. perhaps it is something only a few handful of women in the world long for and this kind of thing is irrelevant to men. How can women truly understand the issues men face, we would have to presume a lot, and probably miss all the important yet less obvious issues men face. I’ve only had a glimpse of men’s issues from an outside perspective and while I have compassion for them, I cannot presume to offer the way in which the wisdom in men is reclaimed, but I can support and be willing to learn from the wisdom men have reclaimed if I am given the opportunity to share in it.

***

( in simpler terms for simpler minds... fuck & breed kids.) The merest suggestion of a Semen workshop displays your ignorance concerning men. In case you hadn't noticed,(& even some men haven't) there is a lot more to being a man than producing Semen or getting together in a mens group to have a group wank & 'Celebrate' the fact that we are men, the producers of the life force that fertilizes the females egg.

Of course I am ignorant concerning the majority of men and men’s business. I am a woman and have not had the opportunity or time to glean anything more than a glimpse of men’s wisdom that is there to be shared.

Your presumption of my beliefs gained from one mere paragraph is rather far fetched. It would be rather nonsensical to believe that there wasn’t more to men than semen production as it would be nonsensical to presume there was nothing more to women than menstruation. These are a physical and biological function. I believe we were referring to the deeper spiritual side of men and their wisdom and issues, whether semen is a metaphor or tool used in this reclamation is something for men to decide. As I’ve stated before I as a woman can only show compassion and support whilst men do this if they choose to.

Whilst some women were menstruating in our workshop, we didn’t share the actual blood as such…so the thought of men actually ejaculating in their own workshop didn’t really cross my mind. I cannot presume to know whether or not this kind of activity would be beneficial to the men involved in any kind of semen workshop so I leave it in the realm of men’s business.

Without the egg, semen would be just a wank, & without the semen, the egg would be cast out waste in menstrual blood each month. I beg to differ. I’d like to present an alternative scientific view on the reason behind menstruation as produced by Margie Profet known quite simply as Profet’s theory. Profet presents the idea that menstruation is an integral part of the female body that occurs to cleanse the uterus and vagina of any bacteria and other unnatural objects to maintain optimum health. As each ovum which contains the oocyte, or “egg” is fundamental in triggering the hormones that cause menstruation then the egg is more than a vehicle for carrying genetic information in the creation of new generations, it is also the controlling factor in a part of female health and well being.

I also recall a lecture during my nursing degree where a lecturer presented the idea that semen is also fundamental to keeping the inside parts of the male sexual organs in good health by flushing “pipes’ so to speak. Semen is in a continuous cycle of being created and expelled. The current medical reasoning behind this is still in the process of being refined, so as the human body is in large still a mystery to science then I doubt I can present without being open to correction, the points which I have just raised here.

On a deeper level the egg and the sperm have more to offer in the spiritual and emotional sense. As this post is already quite long I leave it to anyone who is interested in this side of things to pursue their interest beyond this post.

***

Girls, as far as menstruation is concerned, you have Nothing to 'Celebrate',(unless you're a wanker.) If you are capable of reading, may I suggest that you read a few history books. You will learn to your surprise & disgust that Women were as much to blame as were men for the way menstruation was looked upon centuries ago. Women themselves veiwed it as filthy, even evil. Of course men capitalized on that!! Only a fool would not. Please, Do NOT Believe me, Research it for yourselves! Oh, by the way, I am not having a rave or rant against women here! Sound familiar?

You contradict yourself in this paragraph. You claim you are not having a rant against women yet you judge some women who choose to celebrate their menstruation as wankers. This can quite clearly be taken as a rant against women.

Your entire post seems aimed at pointing out my inability to promote a positive body image and perception of menstruation in other women, yet you promote the same feeling by choosing to use the term “Girls” in a manner which can be perceived as derogatory, calling women who choose to celebrate their menstruation “wankers” and presuming that women are so naïve as not to have noticed that other women also view their menstruation as disgusting.

This view is not only relegated to the past. I live with it every day. At work I am perpetually hearing other women moaning about their period and looking at me like I’m a freak because I don’t agree with their negative perception. They might not be throwing tampons at me and chanting “plug it up” as in Steven King’s Carrie, but when I suggest alternative ideas such as reusable pads or just being gentle with oneself when they are bleeding I am still met with some unspoken hostility and judgement. I don’t think disgust or surprise is a word I would use to describe my reaction to this. Sadness, patience and hope are better ways to describe the feelings I hold in relation to this matter.

Further, cultures still exist where menstruation is still regarded as a positive part of womanhood. Most Hindu cultures are a prime example where beautiful rites of passage into womanhood are still celebrated for girls who have reached menarche. Some women in western cultures are also reinventing the way they perceive menstruation. This was quite clearly demonstrated duringt he workshop I attended and the amount of websites dedicated to this type of reclamation work on the internet.

So humans on the whole do not completely regard menstruation as a negative matter. But it must be said several of the world major religions do still have doctrine that demonises a woman’s menstruation such as the Bible which present menstruation and pain in child birth as the curse with which God afflicted woman kind for Eve’s sin in succumbing to the temptation of the snake. I have heard that some orthodox Jewish beliefs and some Islamic beliefs also perpetuate this type of view. However in modern western culture the demystifying, scientific medicalisation of the menstrual cycle is just as bad. Plug it up and medicate the “problems” of menstruating tend to cause just as much harm and disharmony as the demonisation of it.

As there are a lot of history books and quite a number, which I’m sure, bear no relevance to menstruation and women’s perception on the issue. Would you kindly direct me to a few titles or authors that you have read so I can gain a better understanding. As for my ability to read, as I’ve been posting on this website now for a few years, I think it went without saying that I am literate to a certain degree and can indeed read.

At no stage in my initial post did I go out of my way to cast judgement on men. I highlighted the unethical practice of some corporations which if you mistakenly perceived as men then I cannot be held accountable for as I clearly labelled these companies as entities and not men. These corporations, run by men and women alike, capitalise on propaganda and fear to sell their menstrual products. As women are the ones who menstruate then this propaganda is directed at them but in turn it affects men as their perception of the female body is also shaped by this propaganda.

I don’t believe all men capitalise/d on the fear of women. Most men I know are quite ethical loving human beings who wouldn’t necessarily choose to profit from a woman’s nor any human’s fear and I personally do not regard this as foolish. Some human’s do, and that is their choice. However it is not a gender thing. It is every individual’s choice whether they choose to support the perception of fear and negativity regarding menstruation or refute it and choose another way of perceiving it.

Whether someone chooses to celebrate menstruation or not should be respected. I was not demanding every woman suddenly throw out their pads and tampons, dance about in celebration of their monthly blood and choose the non corporate alternatives. However, as the corporations have a lot more money to put into marketing and producing propaganda, I thought it was only fair to present an alternative point of view from which anyone could choose to explore the issue further or disregard it if they did not feel it relevant to them.

I look forward to the responses that may be generated in this discussion and hope we have both learn something from each other Mark, as I do not believe you are totally correct in the arguments you present nor do I lack the humility to believe I am entirely correct.

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