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Date Posted: - Thursday - 05/ 1/03 - 9:04pm
Author: Bob Riggs
Author Host/IP: 1Cust161.tnt1.port-townsend.wa.da.uu.net / 67.250.16.161
Subject: "Chemotherapy for Rot"

Hello Mariners...

I came across an article, written by Dave Carnell, in Boatbuilder Magazine some time back. He is a retired chemical engineer, and boater, and shared some pretty fascinating ideas about thwarting dry rot with ethelyne glycol (antifreeze) and borate solutions. Some of you may be aware of Dave and his work.

As a Mariner 31 owner, and faced with some bad areas in my deck and cabin sides, I decided to do a search on Dave's name, with success. He has a great site with this, and some other, really interesting articles on epoxy and other related subjects. I highly recommend that you take the time to look up the site. His phone, e-addy, and mailing address are posted, should you care to discuss any questions. He very kindly answered mine.

I'm going with antifreeze and epoxy to arrest and cure Sea Psalm's ills.

Fair winds to all...

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Replies:

[> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- Chuck Baier, - Friday - 05/ 2/03 - 6:44pm (dialup-63.208.191.142.Dial1.Baltimore1.Level3.net/63.208.191.142)

Thanks Bob, Would you care to share the name of the site or the http address?

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[> [> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- Bob Riggs, - Friday - 05/ 2/03 - 8:16pm (1Cust165.tnt1.port-townsend.wa.da.uu.net/67.250.16.165)

Chuck, I tried to access the site via the address. It has a little squiggly in it that my keyboard doesn't have, and I couldn't bring it up. What works is to do a search on his name, Dave Carnell...comes right up.

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[> [> [> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- John T, - Friday - 05/ 2/03 - 11:14pm (cache-mtc-al04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.233)

Hello Bob,
I read your message last night-typed in Dave Carnell-and there it was-very interesting.Today I put the ingredients together according to the recipe,and treated a rotten, waterlogged area adjacent to the wheel box.Will let you know how it turns out.
I have owned my M-31,VALERIAN,for nearly 19 years,and have replaced most of her deck(the aft deck around the wheel box is the last section),rebuilt the upper house,and put in a new cocpit.Stictly DIY.I've come to a few hard earned conclusions that might not make me too popular on this site.The only sure way to fix the extensive rot on any Mariner is to remove the toerail(this will probably be the only serviceable wood above the sheerline),then remove the whole deck,house,and cockpit by any means at your disposal.Dynamite is very quick.Using good marine ply,epoxy,10 oz. cloth,caulking etc.etc.and some common sense-start rebuilding.And don't forget the"Rule of Three"--it will take you at least 3 times as long as you think to finish the job.
Anyway,Bob,thanks for the info on Dave Carnell.
John T.
VALERIAN

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[> [> [> [> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- Bob Riggs, - Saturday - 05/ 3/03 - 10:59am (1Cust237.tnt1.port-townsend.wa.da.uu.net/67.250.16.237)

Chuck, thanks for the formula for copying Dave's site addy. It is: http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html

John, thanks for sharing your experience with Valerian's restoration (dynamite?). Your test should prove interesting. Do let me know how it goes. The AF should displace the moisture in the wood and kill the rot, if my understanding is clear. Then, the epoxy will fill the capillary system in the wood.

When I spoke with Dave, I mentioned that I had concerns about whether epoxy injected into the ethelyne glycol treated area, in the plywood, would be chemically compatible, he assured me in the affirmative. I added that I was going to use a penetrating epoxy, like Smith's. His reply was that thinning standard epoxy with 10 to 15% acetone or lacquer thinner was much better...something to do with no voids in the chemical consistency (if I followed him).

I'm hopeful that my pockets of rot are not as extensive as those you've dealt with. I appreciate your presentation of the worst case scenario. I'm prepared for the worst, but hoping for the best. What will be, will be.

As to removing the toerail, I'm thinking of doing that, anyway. Looking at some offshore models, I'm convinced that going to external chain plates, and adding external tangs bolted through the hull at the stancions, will allow me to beef up the stancions and permit bulwarks to replace the toerail. This should add strength to all and allow the side decks to drain very efficiently.

John, I appreciate your good intentions, but if I remembered the "Rule of Three", I'd never start this job.

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[> [> [> [> [> Swimming pools? -- Speedy, - Sunday - 05/ 4/03 - 7:23pm (buc064068.pac.army.mil/143.45.64.68)

Good luck with your idea. With the amount of work involved, it may be simpler [and less expensive] to build a new deck using plywood and glass. Another option I weighed out was a cored system using closed cell foam and glass.

Bottom line though is that any screw penetrating the deck is a possible moisture entry point. Once the deck is stripped of toe rail and hardware, orthodox replacement is very easy. I agree with the cabin sides. Generaly, the lower portions need to be replaced as well.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Oops I posted the above in the wrong place. -- Speedy, - Sunday - 05/ 4/03 - 7:25pm (buc064068.pac.army.mil/143.45.64.68)


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- John T, - Friday - 05/ 9/03 - 12:11am (cache-rl05.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.101)

Hi Bob,
To update you on the AF experiment.Using a 3 3/8 in.circular saw,I removed a one sq. ft area of the deck covering,exposing the original,stitched mahogany pl;ywood below.The depth of the cut was 3/8 inch.The wood was saturated-hand pressure forced the water to the surface.I prepared the recipe as closely as possible to the instructions,making about 10oz.I then "painted" the stuff on.I didn't think the AF mix would be accepted-given the saturation level of the wood.But somehow I applied approx.6-8 oz.I let it sit in the air and sunshine for the afternoon,while I worked elsewhere.The forcast called for rain,so I covered the area with plastic.Here's the good part -it DIDN'T rain.When I removed the plastic the next morning there was a surprising amt. of standing water in the cut-more than seems possible due to condensation.I sponged the water off-by midafternoon the area was pretty dry-leaving behind a fairly decent section of plywood.No buckling or delaminating.I'm going to air it a few more days,and re-glass and fair-in by the weekend.What took place here?Damn if I know.It doesn't appear to have caused any additional damage.A
quick and easy repair-a rare thing.Good luck on yours.
John T
VALERIAN

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- Bob Riggs, - Friday - 05/ 9/03 - 4:58pm (1Cust117.tnt1.port-townsend.wa.da.uu.net/67.250.16.117)

Very interesting, John. I gather that you are not using straight AF, but mixing it with borate? Do you think that more repetitions of the application might drive more water out? Thanks for the "come-back".

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[> Re: "Chemotherapy for Rot" -- John T., - Wednesday - 05/14/03 - 11:59pm (cache-dl06.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.42)

Hello Bob,
Well, Mr. Murphy visited,and once again gave me a lesson on the Rule of Three.Anyway--the conclusion to the experiment.The first application was AF and boric acid as per the chemo recipe.But before I could apply epoxy and seal the area,it was saturated again by a passing thunder storm.The second application was straight AF.After a day or so of drying time,I can't see any appreciable difference.The wood seems to be dry throughout-no buckling-no de-lam.But this is really about what is going on INSIDE the ply,and on that-time will tell.Now I just want to get it done,and move on to launch day.It's been too long.
John T.

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