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Date Posted: 27/10/04 16:44:50
Author: BRIDIE
Subject: alan rand anyone remember him

i looked into air accidents and see you dont have listed alan rand feb 20 1958 died in germany came from wingrave buckinghamshire im doing a family tree and came across letters from the air minstry trying to explain how the tail fell of his plane if anyone can give me info please email me he was born around 1921 died leaving two young children and a wife i will dig further as it does name the plane thankyou alans niece

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Replies:

[> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 27/10/04 19:32:22

Bridie

Unfortunately there have been over 5000 deaths from peace time flying accidents in the RAF, I can't list them all until people, like yourself come along and tell me who they were.

I do have a very good data base on finding that information, I also have a broad readership from throughout the world from many aeronautical trades and backgrounds who help enormously.

If you could give me the aircraft name (ie Gloster Meteor) I'm sure one of us will come up with a few answers. I too would like to know how a 'tail' came off a 'plane'.

About 2 years ago I had an enquiry from a chap in Canada who was a very young child, aged 8 I believe, whose father was killed in an aircraft crash in Ceylon in 1958, within 24 hours information had been passed around the world to Sri Lanka, Australia and back to Canada and the answer was obtained by someone living only about 20 miles from this person in Canada. By a quirk of fate and unbeknown to me that another person was finding out the death of his father on the same aircraft about a year later I was able through the internet to put these two people to share their grief after 45+ years together.

I might just add that there was only 8 people on this flight and I find the coincidence absolutely amazing.

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[> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- bridie, 29/10/04 10:45:29

john cooper
i found the name of the plane that alan rand was a nagigator
of CANBERRA aircraft hope this is of some use.
bridie

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[> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 29/10/04 19:59:59

Bridie
I have asked a Canberra specialist, Les Bywaters to try and help you out here.

The RAF Museum at Hendon is also very helpful but you would need specific dates and aircraft index numbers before they WOULD assist you. The Ministry of Defence will give you info but only if you are the senior surviving relative of that serviceman and it costs £25 to process a claim. I hope we can come up with something more positive
John

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[> [> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- LesB, 31/10/04 21:44:02

John has asked if I can be of assistance regarding this Canberra crash. I'm sorry, but cannot tell you anything about Alan Rand as I do not have access to personnel records. I can say however that there was no Canberra crash in Germany on the date you give, (2 Feb 1958). In fact, only three aircraft are recorded for Germany within 18 months or so of that date; one on 4 March 1959, one on 30 Dec 1959 and one on 8 Sept 1959. I can say that the 8 Sept '59 crash is not the one you seek as I have the navigator's name for that one and it is not Alan Rand. The nearset earlier Canberra crash was 24 Sept 1955.

It occurrs to me that Alan may have been in a Canberra but in another part of the world at the time of the incident but BASED in Germany (flying on detachment, etc). Could this be so? Could you, via this board (or privately to John), confirm the date and the aircraft type. If you know that it was a Canberra, do you know the squadron Alan was on at the time he flew in them. Unfortunately unless there is someone out there who actually knew Alan Rand, tracing his circumstances via aircraft type etc really requires a bit more detail to be given.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

Les Bywaters.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 2/11/04 10:28:50

Thanks for the info Les.

If anyone has a similar request and you know the exact date, place of accident and the type/index number of the aircraft the RAF Museum will give the details of the aircraft accident, the address is

The Archivist
Royal Air Force Museum,
Grahame Park Way,
London NW9 5LL

Generally there is no charge for this service, however I find a large SAE useful and if you are of the mind a small donation always helps regarding a speedy reply.

If you are requesting information regarding the loss of life of a relative whilst in service please go into a search engine and type in 'The Ministry of Defence UK' and follow the instructions for the branch of service you require.

Both of the above require specific details, without them they are unlikely to help you.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- bridie, 7/11/04 19:53:45

john & les im not very good at this am i? i got arignal documents and nothing adds up but alan rand did die 20 feb 1958 mod letter says his plane was a canberra but when i looked on the net his squadron 20 flew jags im even more confused now his death cert in gescher his body buried in germany kids & wife in buckinghamshire. help someone is there a cover up somewhere was it possible he was on some kind of secret mission himself. and one last puzzle his wife viewed the body my uncle said she had remarked that he looked as if he was just sleeping, is this possible his plane disintergrated at 300 feet doing a speed of 300 knots

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 8/11/04 19:24:34

Bridie

Facts are that Alan Rand died in a Canberra accident in Germany on 20th February 1958, you say the tail came off (that could suggest airframe fatigue or a mid air collision). You also say that the aircraft disintegrated at 300' at a speed of 300 knots, where did you obtain this information?

In 1958 the Sepcat Jaguar had not been anywhere near entering RAF service in fact to my knowledge it wasn't even on the drawing board at this time.

May I suggest that whoever is the next-of-kin of Alan Rand immediately draft a letter to

The Air Historical Branch (RAF)
RAF Bentley Priory
Middlesex

Stating Alan Rand's service number, his rank at the time, his date of birth and the date he died. The AHB must by law retain details of his death whilst in service and that an accident record card will exist.

That is the only way you are going to resolve your Uncles tragic loss.

Let us know how you get on

Best wishes
John

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[> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- bridie shields, 2/11/04 23:42:16

im looking for brain mick austin pilot no 2mrsu who served in gutersloh 1952-1957 you may of known my uncle alan rand navigator who died in accident 1957 ? i seen your write up but cant seem to get your email address anyone with info welcomed to reply

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[> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 3/11/04 7:24:39

Bridie

I did a quick search of GOOGLE, is this your man, it all ties in:-

caustin{{\}}whsmithnet.co.uk

To avoid SPAM insert @ where ((\)) is shown above

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[> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 3/11/04 7:28:22

I should have added this

Trade:
Elect/mech/Air
Name:
Brian(Mick)Austin
Sqn/Station:
No2MRSU RAF Gutersloh
Service Years:
1952/1957
email:
caustin{{\}}whsmithnet.co.uk
Other units/stations:
RAF Laarbruch
Service No:
4116999
Submission-comments:
Don Hickman, Mack Hall, Steve O'Donohoe Where are you?
Date created:
Sat Jul 26 20:27:28 2003

It doesn't mention pilot though! Rather Air Electrician.

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[> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- bridie, 7/11/04 20:20:35

upps john & les it was squadron 80 not 20 must get eyes tested hard to track cause they were origanaly 214 squadron based at laarbruch and they did fly canberras

[Edit]

[> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- LesB, 9/11/04 0:57:25

80 Sqn is much more plausible. This was one of the PR squadrons in 2TAF at the time and flew PR.7 Canberras.

Must apologise for a previous misdirection. I said I could find no Canberra crash in Germany at the date stated. This was because I was looking through a total list of Canberras for those that had crashed (there were 925 UK built Canberras) and I missed one. Sorry. Focusing on 80 Sqn gave me the Canberra type, PR.7, which also gave me a much shorter list to search.

The Canberra your Alan was in was WT526, a PR.7 with 80Sqn. This aircraft suffered a tailplane actuator failure when flying a low-level PR navigation exercise (NAVEX) near Gescher, Germany on the morning of 20 Feb 1958. Both crew were lost.

Low-level navex's were typically carried out at an altitude of 250-300 ft with speeds of around 300 knots. Such flying required not only skill but intense concentration by both pilot and nav. At those speeds, and particularly at those altitudes, when something goes wrong there is no time to do anything about it, not even time to eject - in any aircraft - the unforgiving ground is a scant second or two away.

I'm sorry I can't give any further personal detail about Alan. I will try to find out more if I can.

LesB

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[> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- John Cooper, 9/11/04 8:46:20

Thanks Les that seems to answer Bridies question.

Bridie I still think you ought to get some further details from the AHB, to answer fully why the accident occurred.
Cheers
John

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[> [> [> Re: alan rand anyone remember him -- bridie, 9/11/04 15:57:50

thanks les what you say now adds up too. you asked where i got info from well i have the mod letters dated 1958 dont say alot but with this and the xmas card from alan, has got me this far and i do hope we have gained somethink from this search it would be nice to see a mention of him on your web page now that we have a few more facts.the internet has to be one of mans great wonders of the world.

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