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Date Posted: 23:07:25 11/08/12 Thu
Author: Werewearer
Author Host/IP:
Subject: Bad Girls

I don't know, I've looked at the sequence again in "Bad Girls" and it's like this: vampire attacks buffy/buffy throws vampire against wall/Faith stakes vampire. It happens, like twice that way, then a civilian, the Mayor's lackey, Julian, or whatever his name is, appears to attack Buffy, and she pushes him against a garbage bin, Faith steps in, following the rhythm of the previous two kills, and stakes him. Any court in the land would have convicted both slayers of murder, I'm certain of it.

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[> Re: Bad Girls -- chuckit25, 14:47:49 12/23/12 Sun [1] (

Hello! I thought this board was croaked; nice someone wants to talk about Buffy (and Angel n Faith n the scoobs) when Joss actually was the writer/director/producer/ and all around show runner himself.

First, I’m not a lawyer, but there is such a thing as a jury, who would have to balance Buffy’s reaction to being attacked and Faith’s response. A. Both of these girls have “super powers” that regular human beings don’t. B. The control over these “super strength/speed/healing talents” is in the nature of a human being’s control over them.

You pointed out that Faith was in a “rhythm” rather than using her judgment in discerning the difference between a vampire and a human being (no heart beat, cold, fangs or fangy face in most “out of control” vampires) and to have the skill set to do what Buffy did, in “turning the attack” until she could actually discern what the attacker was, if “vampire” is not clear to the slayer. And, Buffy, who has super speed, was herself in a shock and didn’t stop Faith’s “unthinking” reaction; but Faith tries to cover her own dismay by also being shocking: I. Don’t Care. Indifference has been considered “evil” even if Nature herself is indifferent and not evil.

The journey of BTVS is “growing up” and “it’s complicated” is indeed the story.

In these (early) days, the nature of control is important, for “self control” or “control over others/the environment” means there is “complication,” which in itself, means there is more than one POV and more choices/judgments to be made. These choices/judgments also deal with the nature of “I “ in “desire/want” versus “other/you” in “right/should.”

Because something is the law also does not make the law “right.” “Right” in one culture can be considered totally “wrong” in another. Vampires who snacked on “prey” before the “Master” got them, was a fatal mistake, for example. It’s just goofy that who does the murder of a human being depends on who is doing it. Which has ‘just as goofy” a notion in human law/society in our “just wars” or “death penalty” laws.

Buffy felt that her job was to save the world from evil, which wasn’t the “evil that men do,” because people have police and an entire justice system to deal with that. Buffy’s argument was to go after the evil or demons that either victimized people or “made” people “not have a real choice” or in being “made” to do the wrong thing, preyed on their weaknesses, which could include “the good” in the need to protect themselves, or even family or friends. (Survival).

Because you mention “Becoming” you are familiar with Angel, so I have to add this note. Demons and the supernatural are “eternal” or have other powers that make it “impossible” to adjudicate them in a human/civilian court of law, which is the biggest “downfall” I can think of in the Angel The Series spin off, in later years of that series, that Angel is indeed in the circumstance of having “endless resources” and a very personal knowledge of demons themselves (ya think?); and did nothing to establish some sort of judicial system other than the “death penalty” for the “supernatural”—even if they are indeed judged “evil.” And dispensing evil in disallowing any freedom to commit evil was a pretty supreme kind of “torture.” So there you go. Which is worse? The death penalty or eternal imprisonment and “nothing to see/experience?” Do you think human beings “dream up” hell because of their fear or their need for vengeance; or is “hell” a tragic reality in the need to contain evil from creating nothing but chaos and death these “life forms” can’t experience (no soul)? Or does it require a soul to feel pain and is conciousness the ability not only to be aware of the self, but having the capacity to suffer?

You may have encountered Whistler, who is called a “balance demon” and “not a bad guy.” Which means he might not be a good guy, either. That is what balance means. Good and evil, may not be “universal constants,” as death is not always “evil,”—it is potential—as we all feed on death. Vampires are evil because they actually feed on life, but also want the (spiritual) food/experience of pain and fear in that physical “life blood.”

The canon of BTVS is actually in the voice over (Giles) prologue of the series, that includes the creation myth that this world was not some “Eden” or even a “fallen Eden.” The demons were here first and they “lost purpose” (couldn’t attain flesh or didn’t want to) and we humans have the slayer to drive them off. Mostly.

Some of these demons “seem” to need “flesh” (in order to have any physical effect on this world). This is why vampires are considered “lower” demons, for they “possess flesh” and are not pure “demon.”

This means we have to recall the word “demon” was “daemon” which means spirit and actually is neither good or bad. Many in the world don’t even believe in souls, and you will find a lot of “wonkiness” in canon in the nature of daemon and souls, because people are indeed “animated” (anima) and are considered to have souls, but human beings can be sociopaths, which, might explain the nature of “possession,” perhaps. However, there was an instance on ATS, when a human child was the vessel of a terrified and trapped demon, because the child was the monster!

Angelus is often considered to be “possessed” by the soul of Liam in order to exist as Angel.

That you think about things in this series shows you really understand this series is not just some angsty soap having no “staying power.” Buffy is mythology in new dress (Odyssey) and the ‘reality’ under discussion can be “the world” or a great metaphor on the psychological make up of human beings, with all the “helpers” of fairy tale and dream, or she can be the avatar of “female principle” in all human beings “growing up.”


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[> Re: Bad Girls -- Werewearer, 00:10:46 01/12/13 Sat [1] (

Well, Faith is ambivalent about good and evil, or so she says after she's killed a human being, albeit accidentally. Everybody agreed at some point that the Mayor's lackey's death was accidental. It should have stayed that way.

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[> Re: Bad Girls -- chuckit25, 11:30:35 01/25/13 Fri [1] (

The fact Faith is ambivalent in her emotions does not change the fact the guy doesn't get to be ambivalent in his; he is dead aka manslaughter. A legal crime, a moral reality regarding "what next?"

She also wasn't too interested in calling the police as a responsible person must. She thought by "not caring" or turning off her moral sense of "other," she could just be indifferent. This is the very defintion of evil and is exactly the defintion of the vampire.

Faith deserved punishment and wanted to "power" her way out of her moral pain. Pain is a teacher and Faith wanted her pain to stop, not to deal with the confict of moral correctness and freedom. She has always counted on her power, as a slayer, to "force" her will, even as she views her own survival. She doesn't accept the notion with great power comes great responsibility. That's not 'fun.' And she doesn't want to be defined as a slayer alone.

She counted on her power to protect her, even as she "stopped caring"--not really, we viewers know, for she is a human being--in order to pursue her deeper anxiety for absolute acceptance, including her "bad self."

The moral divergence is not just because "it's the law," but because her "not good not bad" dealio isn't merely about *her * "guilt," the question "whatever the rules are, wherever you are," right or wrong, each action (and non action aka "choice" can have a consequences you can't "take back." Ever.

This alone is power. And that means defining what is good and what is bad suddenly isn't in isolation or an isolated event. Things are now complex, complicated.

Morally, "Betrayal" may be considered worthy of the ninth circle of hell, but killing someone means they will never have the opportunity to forgive you.

Further, the discussion of connection/relationship asks "big questions" in what defines "human," who am I, what is my purpose, how long do I have, is there meaning or only belief (faith) "that lasts" or only "gets you through the day?"

Buffy may be the law when it comes to killing demons, but she submits to the law of human beings when human beings are killed--and that is turned on its head in the reality of Angel/Angelus; and in the "becoming" story of Spike in Buffy's own Becoming story of growing up. Faith is her shadow self, as all these characters are all about Buffy.

There is no way to write all the laws to guide every action/reaction. We humans, therefore trust some "moral" code e.g. the 10 Commandments, boilded down all say "don't steal." Don't steal God's due, parents due, neighbor's wife, reputation, goods, or life.

Further, it would seem the demons only have a "death penalty." There is no "mercy." This is a "Buffy power." A human power, not a slayer power.

There are no easy answers, legally, or morally. Too often they become arguments about power in a dualism. Or denying the reality of a dualism. Nothing is perfect and that is painful, yet pain teaches, while suffering "dooms," even as nothing perfect lasts, for "no change" is by defintion death (or hell).

BTW, I love Faith. I see her as having great pluck, but I also know that her power runs out of steam simply because her own self esteem has been badly damaged and she does seek acceptance for all herself by another. She really doesn't accept herself as "all that" and that means the need to surive itself can be threatened until she actually figures out she really must survive to figure that out. It's just hell on people and furniture.
Be well

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