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Date Posted: 17:08:48 08/15/05 Mon
Author: Rosie
Author Host/IP: 170.97.67.142
Subject: Re: Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:))
In reply to: Ramses 2 's message, "Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:))" on 20:40:33 08/13/05 Sat

"As much as I love Spike and Angel more, I have to believe we were to see Buffy as further ahead than them. They were still operating under the old rules. Times had changed, they needed to catch up."

I REALLY have a hard time believing this. I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you've completely ignored Spike's main problem in regard to Buffy. It has nothing to do with any "old view" of Slayerhood or anything like that. I believe it has a lot to do with his own insecurities.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If the story was Spike! The Vampire that would be the correct reading -- Ramses 2, 20:28:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

But it was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the ending was supposed to be a triumphant one for her.....since the story from season 1 on was a simple coming of age tale, one should be able to conclude that Chosen ends with Buffy as a grown up woman, fully accepting of self.(in other words: teen addresses her issues, comes to terms with who she is, and finally grows up) The old ways? Well season 7 concentrates on stressing that the line is damaged, wrong at it's inception and needing something huge to happen to restart it....and ME has Spike remind us from time to time that the Slayer(not just Buffy)is very much 'stuck' going through the motions but unable to put anything before the mission. It's only when she faces herself, puts the past in the past that we see her move forward. So, yeah...you better believe the old view of the Slayer mattered to the storyline. If we weren't reminded of this we wouldn't understand that the restart of the line was a very good thing in the end.

And make no mistake, Joss wanted us to see her capable of moving forward. Joss will use this theme of moving forward and growing up again in ATS 5, when both vamps must move forward or stay mere pawns. And we really see this happening after TGIQ with each vampire addressing the issues that led to their metaphorical immaturity.(At Andrew's prodding) Bottom line? Sure, I agree Spike was insecure, but in the context of the larger epic story, this is played out as the vampire who helped the Slayer, who knew the Slayer best, who gave her the strength to face her issues and grow up, cannot recognize that she has.... because the line has changed. His Slayer has restarted the line, his slayer is no longer tied to the dance. Everything he believes about her has changed. He wins her love but loses her all over again.

So Chosen is about Buffy, not Spike's insecurities. NFA? Definitely, we see Spike adressing them....but that still means Buffy is further ahead than him. But I think Joss allows us to assume something major is happening to both Spike and Angel. If being a vampire is a metaphor for immaturity and stunted growth, and we see them finally addressing that....then in the epic story at large, this is equally as important as getting a soul.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I was going to say exactly this :-) -- Eurydice, 21:18:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Ok, I sort of thought it, but you said it coherently.

And for all the sneering about TGIQ, it was really a pretty serious episode. We got to see that Spike and Angel weren't just "narrowly missing" Buffy, they were chasing a girl who didn't exist anymore. Sort of interesting that the real ghost of season 5 was Buffy, not Spike.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! :) (Regarding Buffy as the real ghost of ATS 5) -- Ramses 2, 22:05:48 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

And I think it's not for nothing that we [almost] see Buffy dancing in TGIQ. For how many seasons we've seen this as a metaphor for the slayer/vampire relationship. There's something sexual and intimate here......Spike's been shown dancing with her, trying to stop her from dancing to death, to being too weary to dance...Angel doesn't 'dance' with Buffy, he's always shown watching....so through the metaphor we see how each relationship played out.

Then in TGIQ, Angel is shown afraid to dance(his curse) and Spike wants to go and rescue her as she dances....but she doesn't need rescuing. Her dance isn't with vampires anymore. She's just a young woman having fun. Both vampires want to continue in a relationship that we know doesn't work for any of them.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And when Spike first saw her, she was dancing -- Eurydice, 22:26:46 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Only he was the predator then. And oooooh, he could have danced all night with Nikki. I think we have another leitmotif. :-)


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