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Date Posted: 05:01:02 10/02/08 Thu
Author: RJA
Author Host/IP: 81.144.162.98
Subject: Or perhaps that is like a daughter
In reply to:
silveragent
's message, "Re: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers." on 22:27:32 10/01/08 Wed
Choosing a lover over her father. Not to say that this is what all daughters do, or intentionally, but it is a genuine source of conflict in some relationships. It would be ridiculous, as a grown woman, to say that the person who always comes first is her father figure - that would be dooming her to failed relationships of her own.
It's the classic story of someone who refuses to recognise that their daughter is growing older and gaining independence. Yes, we can understand why he would be wary of her relationships with vampires, but given that Buffy was invariably proven right about their reformed behaviour, it would be time for him to accept that and not use it to create a barrier.
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Re: Or perhaps that is like a daughter -- silveragent, 16:23:33 10/03/08 Fri [1] (63.199.111.93)
I don't see Buffy being right about their reformed behavior. Neither Spike nor Angel ever expressed any moral code, belief in God, giving themselves over to a Supreme being, with explicit rejection of their prior ego-testosterone driven ways to a new code. They merely worshipped themselves all over again. Their own ego as God. Themselves as a cause. [You cannot have redemption without God, that is in fact the whole point. Secular redemption is a contradiction in terms.]
Nothing like say, Robert Duvall's character journey in the "Apostle." Who gives himself over to something greater than his own ego. Neither vampire believes in anything but themselves with renewed vigor.
And Buffy is not Giles daughter. She is Hank Summers daughter. Giles will have no Grandchildren that typically informs the lives of the elderly, and provides continuity from generation to generation. The attempts to construct a "superior" alternative to the Nuclear Family always fail, and end up turning to extended tribe/clan ... as seen in Europe and it's social collapse.
Giles is at odds and ends, knowledgeable, with some money, lots of secret information, doing flat out nothing that interests him, engages him, gives his life purpose. He's as likely to be as bored and desperate as the lead in "Office Space" only with more danger. There is nothing in Buffy's distant life for him ... and he's likely to find his own path, purpose, and meanings in life.
Prior watchers whose charges died were pensioned off. Probably too filled with grief to do anything. Possibly the most dangerous thing Giles could do is reach out ... and form alliances with all those Watchers. Including Kendra's Watcher, all of Buffy's predecessors who are still alive.
If unconnected, just floating around Warren, Andrew, and Jonathon were dangerous ... just think what those guys (and perhaps women) could do. Given that they probably have a low opinion, understandably, of Buffy, her choices, her conduct, and particularly associates of undead status. But then, Buffy has always been in brain-dead denial about the consequences of her vampires to the social cohesion of her group.
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Of course you can have redemption without god -- RJA, 18:10:38 10/03/08 Fri [1] (81.99.124.136)
Or at the very least a reformation. You cannot define the show, the characters and the world through your own prism of belief. The fact that the characters may or may not believe in god means nothing.
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I don't believe that secular redemption is a contradiction in terms. -- dee, 14:26:59 10/09/08 Thu [1] (66.146.36.174)
Redemption can also mean (finally) recovering one's true sense of self after much trial and tribulation in life, whether that be caused by poor choices or by the hand of fate.
From my viewpoint, redemption in the world of BtVS is more about living secular humanism with ultimate faith in oneself and striving to be the best that one can be under trying circumstances, than it ever was about a belief in an external God.
As far as Giles and Buffy go...well that's a tale told throughout time.
Definitely a father/daughter, mentor/student relationship in that she starts out needing him and learning from him and as time goes on she begins to feel she has to break that bond (and so does Giles, really) in order to continue to grow and become the person she feels she's meant to be.
I find it compelling story-telling.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting stuff here on the board, everybody. Now I miss Chani.
:o)
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And where's Eurydice been? I miss her too. -- dee, 14:28:28 10/09/08 Thu [1] (66.146.36.174)
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WjJSKSzNJdDgq -- azwskwizkwm (NNQwGFkahMAgYVKJo), 14:21:18 11/14/08 Fri [1] (138.4.9.196)
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