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Date Posted: 15:12:30 08/08/05 Mon
Author: Rosie
Author Host/IP: 170.97.167.60
Subject: Re: Magic in Buffyverse
In reply to: Rosie 's message, "Magic in Buffyverse" on 13:54:22 08/08/05 Mon

"These categories have been around far longer than Joss has, so it doesn't surprise me if people use them. And Joss isn't immune either, otherwise why did "Bad Willow Doing Bad ThingsFor Bad Reasons" have black hair and "Good Willow Finally Doing Magic For Good Reasons" have white hair?"

Perhaps Willow's hair change came from the state of her emotions while she was practicing magic. Her intentions or her emotional state were usually not that great, whenever she used magic.

Besides, the whole "white magic" and "dark magic" seems like an excuse to blame the state of magic itself, and not the intent of the practioner. Humans have a habit of externalizing their problems or situation a lot.

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[> [> Well, if it's an excuse, it's been used since the dawn of time -- Eurydice, 15:53:03 08/08/05 Mon [1] (141.154.26.230)

And future generations might consider our post-modern "everything's relative" to be just as much of an excuse.

But I don't see how putting spells into categories and assigning them names is an "excuse." The categories themselves imply intent, you don't use a black magic spell unless you want a black magic effect, just as you don't use poison unless you want to poison something - that's not making a judgement about the morality of chemistry.

In any case, my point was that the idea of magic being neutral is a law of the Buffyverse and not necessarily the real world understanding that people have, given millenia of interpretation. If you google "white magic" and "black magic," you'll see that there's been a long history behind those terms, that their practice has been associated with and bound up in greater belief systems and philosophies and myths, not to mention centuries of storytelling, and that the whole thing is a lot more complex than just a bunch of Buffy fans getting things "wrong." And considering that we really don't know if magic exists or, if it does, how it works, it seems a bit harsh to be judging peoples' reactions to it as externalizing their problems.


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[> [> Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- Rosie, 17:54:32 08/08/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)

"But I don't see how putting spells into categories and assigning them names is an "excuse." The categories themselves imply intent, you don't use a black magic spell unless you want a black magic effect, just as you don't use poison unless you want to poison something - that's not making a judgement about the morality of chemistry."

But that is the point I've been trying to make. That one shouldn't label magic as "dark" or "good"; and that it's all about the magic practioner's intent.


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[> [> [> If we go back to your quote, it's actually got two parts. -- Eurydice, 20:40:07 08/08/05 Mon [1] (141.154.25.113)

The first part of the quote assumes magic is morally neutral, but the second part says that in the Jossverse magic becomes ambiguous because the intent of the practitioner becomes irrelevent. The second part of the quote assumes that there are greater, or at least uncontrollable, forces out there which can subvert anybody's actions. I was just addressing your question, which only referred to the first part of the quote. And you started your question with "If this is true.."

Well, one answer could be that people don't believe magic is morally neutral. And I think that comes from all those millenia of conditioning I was talking about in my other posts - and except for those who are Wiccan and/or those who practice witchcraft (not always the same thing as I've been told), most people don't understand magic or are interested in it or believe it exists, so they'll go along with what the fairy tales told them. I don't think that says anything about their willingness to face facts or accept responsibility.

If you add the second part of the quote into the equation, the thing becames more complicated because the practitioner can't guarantee success at all, regardless of intent. Whether you're a good guy who ended up doing something bad or a bad guy who ended up doing good, neither result is desirable - in this case, magic isn't neutral, it's capricious, and we should take Spike's advice and stay away from it. :-)


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