VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 123[4] ]


[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 20:51:45 07/19/05 Tue
Author: Rosalind
Author Host/IP: 154.20.147.19
Subject: Re: The Drusilla/Spike/Angel Triangle of S2
In reply to: Rosie 's message, "The Drusilla/Spike/Angel Triangle of S2" on 18:58:46 07/19/05 Tue

Right from the very first episode that Spike and Dru appear, School Hard, she is aware that the Sunnydale Slayer is bad news for her. There is this exchange in the scene where we first meet Dru, where Spike first appears in his human face and where we first see a vampire (Spike) behaving solicitously towards another vampire (Dru) and expressing "human-like" and even "soulful" concern for a creature incapacitated and helpless. This is pretty jarring as we have been encouraged thus far to see vampires merely as evil, soulless, world destroying, bloodsucking fiends incapable of love or any of the other, finer romantic feelings.

//Drusilla: I can't see her. The Slayer. I can't see. (looks back up)
It's dark where she is. Kill her. Kill her, Spike. Kill her for me?

Spike: It's done, baby.

Drusilla: Kill her for princess?

Spike: I'll chop her into messes.

Drusilla: You are my sweet... my little Spike.//

I guess at this point Spike was doomed to meet a dusty end in a few episodes while Buffy and Drusilla were being set up to be in direct rivalry for Angelus. But I never got the sense that Dru was behaving the way she was simply to make Spike jealous because of his attachment to the slayer which she only, at this point in the story, intuits rather than knows. It seems the other way around to me. Spike is jealous of Drusilla's continuing attachment to Angelus and realizes, in a competition between the two, Angelus will win over him for Dru's heart every time. Spike gives her a jeweled heart for Valentine's Day but it can't compete with Angelus's real heart ripped still beating from a shopgirl's chest.

In What's My Line 2, when Drusilla is torturing Angel, Spike is clearly disturbed by her enthusiasm for it. And, as this is a form of foreplay for Dru, he is quite justified to be so. Angel even uses this jealousy and the knowledge that, even with a soul and having ignored her for almost a century, he still comes first with Dru to goad Spike into staking him before they can do the ritual to restore Dru to her full strength by telling Spike he is incapable of truly satisfying Dru. Angel believes he is going to die regardless but at least this death will not be responsible for inflicting a restored and insane vampire back on the world.

When they return to South America, in the scene in FFL written long after Becoming2 when Spike first allies himself with Buffy, Dru sees Spike's attraction to Buffy and punishes him for it. But I don't think his attraction for the Slayer is a factor in the events of Becoming 2 and Dru's behavior towards Spike once Angel becomes Angelus and returns to Dru. I do think Spike is attracted to Buffy then, he does call her cutie after all, but it is Dru's fawning over Angelus which is the impetus for Spike's deal. He is the jealous one, not Dru.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]


Replies:

[> [> Oh, absolutely -- Eurydice, 21:27:01 07/19/05 Tue [1] (151.203.53.207)

Angelus was Daddy, and Daddy always comes first. In FFL, when William was turned, Angelus referred to Darla and Dru as "my women." They were a trio well before Spike came into the picture. And it was intimated (and also mentioned in the commentary) that Spike and Dru didn't even get together until he killed the Chinese Slayer 10 years later. Of course, this was contradicted later in LMPTM, but then the idea of Angelus coming first was really reinforced on AtS in Destiny.


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> [> I can hear her singing "but my heart belongs to Daddy" -- Chani, 06:19:08 07/20/05 Wed [1] (81.65.9.39)

Damn Dru is Marilyn!

Yes, my heart belongs to Daddy
So I simply couldn't be bad
Yes, my heart belongs to Daddy
Da, Da, Da, Da, Da, Da, Da, Da, DAAAAD


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> LOL! That answers a lot of questions for me. -- Eurydice, 06:39:25 07/20/05 Wed [1] (151.203.54.250)

Except - how could she sing that song and still keep her dreadful accent? I've been trying, but I've only managed to scare my cat.


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> Yeah but Dru was such a selfish creature -- Chani, 06:31:04 07/20/05 Wed [1] (81.65.9.39)

She feared the Slayer because she wanted to keep her knight, but at the same time it was all about her Daddy. She was manipulative rather than jealous.

Dru was very cruel towards Spike, much more than Buffy IMO, but she had been taught by Angelus that cruelty was a way to show affection, didn't she?

She's a complex character because at the same time she had a grudge against Angelus for what he had done to her family but she took everything on Angel (it's obvious in their first scene together and later in What's My Line 2), Angel who isn't supposed to be guilty for Angelus' sins (well according to Buffy's logic). Dru knew better. She knew that Angel and Angelus was the same person and she knew that torturing Angel was best because she could torture his soul as well as his body.


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> [> I don't think it was Buffy's logic.... -- Christian, 16:19:51 07/20/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

Apparently if you were a vampire who killed lots of innocent humans and later get soul then he isn't responsible for that creature's evil doings. So why should he feel guilty? I mean that's what Joss and everyone on the board keeps preaching. Am I right?


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Hey my "HUGS" seemed to disappear from my post dammit! HUGS Chani! :) -- Christian, 16:25:04 07/20/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> I never really thought Angel/Angelus were the same entity -- Christian, 17:53:19 07/20/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

They were to seperate beings in my honest opinion.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes and No -- Michael, 18:42:57 07/20/05 Wed [1] (66.44.2.41)

They are different, but I see it as more complicated as that.

Angel's personality is what one could call an "untwisted" version of Angelus (in analogy to the concept that a vampire tends to have a "twisted" version of the original person's personality). In addition, Angelus is still there, still part of what Angel is, even though it isn't the dominant part.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe -- Christian, 20:06:05 07/20/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> *Hugs Christian* -- Chani, 05:44:52 07/21/05 Thu [1] (81.65.9.39)

Looks like I was hugging myself below...


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Actually I don't think it was what Joss kept preaching -- Chani, 05:39:17 07/21/05 Thu [1] (81.65.9.39)

It's what Angel and Angelus wanted to make everyone believe!

Besides the curse and its clause would be pointless if they were 2 different entities. I mean the Gypsies wanted revenge, they made him suffer (his whole being including Angelus), he was supposed to be punished, he could no longer have a moment of happiness. His dark side (Angelus) suffered because he was no longer on the driver seat, moral compass keeping him in the back seat and preventing him from doing evil, and his good side suffered because of the guilt...hence his brooding.

Lots of people wondered about the happiness clause, thinking it was stupid (because it was the free card for Angelus), but it's very significant, it's precisely which points out that Angel is responsible for all his actions including the evil ones.

All Angel's journey shows the opposite of what you said. After season 2 he was in denial because Buffy was hurt, and he kept speaking of Angelus as antoher person (and vice versa) but in Ats he slowly acknowledged that Angelus was a part of him and in season 5 (probably because he couldn't fool Spike) he simply said "I" when speaking of Angelus.

And think of ensouled Spike who is haunted by his crimes too. He never says he was someone else.

Angel and Angelus as two different beings is a poetic licence, good to tell a story, just like Jeckyll and Hyde was 2 different beings with 2 different names, but in the Jossverse as in Stevenson's novel, it's only a meatphor of the evil a man keeps inside and that can be unleashed.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> I forgot to hug you too! * HUGS* -- Chani, 05:43:21 07/21/05 Thu [1] (81.65.9.39)

But gently, because I had vaccinations yesterday and I'm weak and in pain today...especially on the right. My arm and shoulder hurt because of the vaccination for the typhoid fever.

BTW I think I'm going back to bed.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> But if Angel was responsible then what does it say 4 Spike? Isn't he too responsible 4 his actions? -- Christian, 14:08:12 07/22/05 Fri [1] (209.240.205.62)

That doesn't make sense does it? "Angel" responsible for Angelus' actions but not Spike?

Is it the writers fault? Or the fans?


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Who said that Spike was not? -- Chani, 13:07:11 07/26/05 Tue [1] (81.65.9.39)

Certainly not him!

It made perfectly clear that he was responsible, he never said that evil Spike was someone else!


[ Edit | View ]






Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.