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Date Posted: 19:17:55 07/28/05 Thu
Author: justmytwocents
Author Host/IP: 141.153.23.152
Subject: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role

Just read this story on e-online. Opinions anyone?

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Replies:

[> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- Joann, 19:23:58 07/28/05 Thu [1] (152.163.100.195)

Yes, never say never. And why is he speaking *for* his wife? IMO this is a premature statement. TPTB remake old movie, old tv series, etc. With something so successful as BtVS and helmed by someone as talented as JW I don't see how it can be buried under the mistake of the first BtVS movie.


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[> Well, he might be right -- Eurydice, 19:41:20 07/28/05 Thu [1] (151.203.54.45)

But the reason he gives is pretty stupid. Just because the original 1992 movie wasn't so good doesn't mean that a Buffy movie today would have the same problems. Now it would be coming out of a successful series, with a well-known actress, with a writer/director who's got experience and clout, and with a ready-made, world-wide audience.

But if SMG doesn't want to do it and/or Joss has nothing more to say about Buffy, those are reasons which make sense to me.


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[> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- Karmina, 21:59:57 07/28/05 Thu [1] (132.208.28.171)

What he says is nothing really new, SMG has always publicly stated that she has reservations about doing a movie but she never closed the door completely. Privatlely, she might of told him that she never wants to play Buffy again. What she says in public and what she really thinks is two different things. However, I don't think it's his place to contradict her in the media.

And Eurydice is right. You can't compare the old movie with any possible future movie.

But what really bugs me is when he seems to talk for Joss, what does he know about what Joss plans for the future. There doesnt seem to be any communication between Joss and SMG. Also, it's no secret that Joss is busy with other things and that any BtVS|Ats projects are not for the near future. Ang again he never closed the door on a future movie. So I guess I'm going to be an optimist and hope we get something in the future.

Karmina


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[> [> Joss vs. Freddy -- silveragent, 02:00:59 07/29/05 Fri [1] (63.199.111.93)

Joss and Freddy basically traded barbs across interviews. Freddy stated that SMG would have re-upped for Buffy if she had been properly appreciated for her sacrifices and creative input. Joss responded by mocking FPJ's career and absence on the set of Buffy.

The of course there's the Entertainment Weekly Interview with Sarah at the end of S7, in which she detailed her unhappiness with the public sex scene with Spike in the Bronze, other things in S6. The words traded in S5 during Buffy's renewal negotiations (Sarah said she didn't want to do Buffy if it left WB; Joss responded by threatening to fire her and replace her with Eliza and "Faith the Vampire Slayer"). Sarah in recent interviews lamented the lack of screen time for Xander, and lack of Buffy-Xander-Willow friendship in S6 and S7.

While I don't think Sarah should have opined on the renewal negotiations, I think Joss over-reacted and needlessly embarrassed his star. I don't think his creative direction in S6-7 was particularly good, and his handling of Sarah's concerns was not artful, particularly since she is a lot more important to the Buffyverse than say, James.

I don't think Sarah or Joss hate each other, but I don't think they are anxious to work together, or will work together again ever, and Freddy's words reflect that. Which is a pity because the team of Joss, Sarah, Greenwalt, and folks like Batali and Des Hotel and Noxon and Espenson put together some of the best TV around in S1-3. When they were all on the same page.

Freddy is probably being a good husband and sticking the needle into Joss a bit; Joss wrote the Buffy movie and it was a flop.


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[> Taking one for the team -- silveragent, 01:37:28 07/29/05 Fri [1] (63.199.111.93)

SMG was publicly unhappy about S6-7, and how Buffy came out. Joss in contrast was VERY happy about those seasons. I don't think you can bridge that gap and have to choose: Sarah or Joss. Creatively, I don't think it's possible to have both.

Freddy is taking one for the team about why the Buffyverse is dead (without Sarah). And noted tellingly btw that little kids recognized Sarah as BUFFY.

Is there money left in Buffy? I think yes, but it's Incredibles type money, not niche Joss Firefly type money.

Go to Hollywood Economist, read the articles (including Tom Cruise's deal on Mission Impossible 2 and 3):

http://slate.msn.com/id/2123286/

Incredibles sold 17 million DVDs, which is ... incredible. Given that the DVDs sold for $15 wholesale, and the margin was $10 after marketing, distribution, manufacturing, and guild payments, that's a whopping $170 million of pure profit. Incredible. Mission Impossible 2 netted 20 million DVDs which is 200 million in pure profit (less Cruise's $94 million).

Note: Cruise paid John Woo out of his pocket; produced MI 2 under budget, and basically fired MI 3 director Carnahan, got a new script. He may jump up and down on a couch, but he not directors and writers has the power.

And I think Freddy took one for the team to demonstrate Sarah has the power. Not Joss, not Fox. Without Sarah there is no project that can make that kind of money, with her there is I'd say. But it would IMHO require Fox to give her the Tom Cruise type of deal (creative control, hiring/firing of writers and directors, no upfront fees and lucrative backend stuff) and a mass-market type of movie which is where the money is.

There is still a LOT IMHO of money left in Buffy, but it's not Spike, Illyria, Faith or Andrew, but rather Buffy and a feel-good story. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that. Possibly in a few years Fox might deal with Sarah ala Cruise.


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[> [> It's not going to happen -- toothy, 18:50:22 07/29/05 Fri [1] (63.17.211.102)

SMG is not going to be given creative control over a BTVS movie. I'm sure she would be given a script before hand, and I would hope her input would be considered, but I reiterate, SMG is not going to be given control.


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[> [> [> Of course she won't have creative control -- Christian, 21:13:45 07/29/05 Fri [1] (209.240.205.62)

Butshe can have the option to not do the role i she doesn't like the script.

It's a shame that Joss Whedon didn't at least given some thought to SMG feelings against the dark/depressing nature of season 6. But Joss knows exactly what a girl goes through/feels in her 20's into womanhood. (rolls eyes)


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[> [> Why SA, you're a comedian :-) -- Eurydice, 11:51:35 07/30/05 Sat [1] (141.154.24.137)

I have to laugh at the notion that SMG would ever get creative control over a Whedonverse project. If she wants creative control over something, she might try creating that something first.

And before any studio gives her a Tom Cruise type of deal, she'll have to come up with Tom Cruise like box office and world-wide name recognition, not to mention Tom Cruise's deep pockets which help him buy that control. So far, that hasn't happened, and going by the career choices she's made, this might not be the path she wants to take anyway.


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[> Nothing Wrong About S6-7 -- Rosie, 11:03:45 07/29/05 Fri [1] (170.97.167.60)

There was nothing wrong about S6-7, as far as I'm concerned. I suspect that people could not deal with an adult Buffy and the more complex story lines. Yes, SMG didn't like the style of the S/B sexathon and Buffy's depression of S6, but so what? That doesn't mean that S6 was awful. She, like a lot of others, probably preferred a less complex Buffy.

"However, I don't think it's his place to contradict her in the media."

It was possible that he made those statements on her behalf. And as her husband, there is nothing wrong with that.

If SMG doesn't want to play Buffy anymore, she doesn't. I think we should respect her wishes and be glad there are seven seasons of BUFFY to enjoy.


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[> [> I don't think it's about "some people dealing with an Adult Buffy" -- Christian, 12:55:02 07/29/05 Fri [1] (209.240.205.62)

She WASN'T being an adult. She was being wreckless because of her depression. Season 6 especially was NOT an enjoyable season to watch. IMO

As many fans who loved season 6-7 there as many fans if not more who didn't appreciate it. I'm one of them.


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[> [> [> Re: I don't think it's about "some people NOT being able 2 deal with an Adult Buffy" -- Christian this is what I meant, 12:56:11 07/29/05 Fri [1] (209.240.205.62)


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[> Time will tell -- TGWShark, 11:46:11 07/29/05 Fri [1] (65.161.178.226)

It will all boil down to economics in the end.

I like SMG. I don't expect her to ever be an "A-list" actor, or to enjoy the control a Cruise has. She may surprise me. She's had some good box office out of things I didn't enjoy, but I'd say the Scooby Doo movies would have been box office successes with trained hamsters made up to look like the cartoon characters. You'll never go broke underestimating the tastes of the public. And I'll never understand why "The Grudge" made a dime after the first weekend, but that's a matter of my personal taste.

I like Joss. I don't like all his creative choices, but he generally entertains me.

If the time comes when Joss has a script and backing for a "Buffy" movie, SMG may fight to reprise the role. Until then, any words by Joss and/or Mr. Gellar are just so much jockeying for position.


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[> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- John, 19:37:22 07/30/05 Sat [1] (64.19.83.140)

There is virtually NO way they can get the money for a good movie without SMG. That is the bottom line. Unless Serenity is a huge hit- Joss will never have the clout on his own to get a big movie budget deal.
Most fans DID NOT LIKE Season 6- every board and every source I have seen has shown that those that liked season 6 are in the DISTINCT minority. Not to mention how fast the ratings fell in season 6. Season 6 was unrealistic- depressing- and, frankly, distastefull in many respects. the damage done to many of the charactors was never repaired in any way- and there was very little attempt in season 7, which was messed up as well. Joss LOST a lot of the luster he had gained up through season 5- he was - rightfully- blamed for it all; he WAS the man in charge, though Marti certainly has a lot of the BLAME as well.
Right now, he is up against it in that the Serenity movie must do very well, or he will NOT be doing much in movies again. As regards TV, he still has clout there; but it is limited to certain areas.
SMG needs a role that is not a franchise like Scooby Do; or a remake like the Grudge; something original that works and makes money. BUT, inhe movie world, she is in better shape then Joss is; TV- since she has no interest in another movie it does not matter.


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[> [> I don't see what season 6 has to do with a movie -- Eurydice, 20:16:41 07/30/05 Sat [1] (141.154.22.206)

I wasn't all that fond of it myself, at least the second half, but I can't imagine why any Buffy movie would revisit her issues from season 6. And as much as we all love BtVS, it's not such a well known franchise that anyone would commit a big budget movie to it, anyway. And as far as Joss's movie career is concerned, he's already got a big bidget film coming up - it's called Wonder Woman. So it seems as if he's doing pretty well for himself.

All this harping about SMG's hard feelings and Joss's hard feelings and blah, blah, blah seems pretty irrelevent to me. The entertainment business is filled with egos and emotion and tensions and slights, both real and imagined. If the players can't handle it they should get out of the game, and it looks like these players *can* handle it - it's the fans who can't handle it.


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[> [> [> I think it has alot to do with events of season 6... -- Christian, 20:51:45 07/30/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

As John has stated it was so unlike what the show was originally like/about. And it was the catalyst for all "the hard feelings" between Joss/SMG.

Anybody can say what they want but even James Marsters couldn't save Angel from being cancelled. I doubt any TV Exec would want ANY type of spinoff/movie involving the Buffy/Angelverse. Especially so soon.


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[> [> [> [> Re: I forgot to add that...... -- Christian, 20:58:17 07/30/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

I don't think anyone would want a movie of the "verse" tht DIDN'T include any of the main characters ie: Buffy/Angel.

Secndary characters like Spike, Faith and Willow just won't work. IMO


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[> [> [> [> [> I guess I'm a little confused then -- Eurydice, 22:00:26 07/30/05 Sat [1] (141.154.22.206)

Because I never thought there was ever any serious talk about a Buffyverse feature film, except maybe by the fans. All the chatter I've heard has been about TV movies and I think that secondary characters could carry one of those - it wouldn't cost as much and the target audience would be right there - and quite frankly, I think it would be more interesting to explore characters we don't know as much about than the two we know everything about.

I think that might be part of the reason why Serenity made it to feature status - it's the beginning of a franchise with new characters who have yet to be explored and there's already a devoted fan base - there's a lot of room for growth, not so much for Buffy and Angel.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Serenity is in a totally different arena. SCIFI -- Christian, 15:53:49 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

And Firefly lasted like what 6, maybe 7 episodes before FoX cancelled it? Not enough time to really get into the characters 100% or their stories. Totally different from Buffy in every aspect.

I do agree with you that Buffy's story is quite done. I think all of their story is quite done which is why a spinoff is really a moot point.

As I said before they'll need to re-start the franchise with a bunch of "NEW" characters. And that will take awhile.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That was my point -- Eurydice, 17:46:47 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.26.135)

It doesn't matter if Firefly is sci-fi, when you're putting money into genre you want it to be at the beginning of a potential franchise, not at the end. Firefly was on FOX only very briefly, but it sold a gazllion DVDs and since then the fan base has grown. The fan base can grow even more as the story and characters develop -not to mention that there'll be a new market for all the ancillary merchandise.


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[> [> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- John, 08:12:54 07/31/05 Sun [1] (64.19.85.104)

One of the reasons that the movie was discussed was that you have a lot more freedom in movies then on TV, unless you are talking cable. Even there there are some restrictions. Also- what has been big in the last 10 years or so? Feature movies of TV series, comic book movies- so Buffy is right there in the mix of what is hot now.
Not to mention the MONEY- salaries in movies are pretty big.
Another reason that a movie has been a hot topic is the feeling of many people, not just the fans, that there are a lot of unanswered questions, and still a lot left to see in the Buffyverse.
Serenity was green lighted when Joss was pretty hot, and the circumstances were favorable. But it is not the biggest budget around, and Joss needs it to be a big hit, if he is going to keep making movies.
Firefly was a cult show. somewhat like BUffy in that way, but NOWHERE near as big. There would be a LOT more interest in a Buffy movie. If it bombs, the only movie that Joss will get greenlit after that would be a Buffy movie WITH SMG.
The hard feeling between SMG and Joss are not anything new in Hollywood, but it is still something that must be taken into account. SMG, most of the cast, and many of the fans felt abandoned by Joss after season 5; he was so into Firelfy that he pretty much let Marti do what she wanted, and as we all know that was NOT a good idea. Joss felt that SMG and company should be gratefull for what he did for them- but he forgot that they did a lot for him in how well they made the Buffyverse come to life. And there are usually differences between the creator and the actors that play the parts: both feel they have a unique point of view and that is true; often those points of view do not agree.
GIven the time that has passed, I think a lot of the heat is gone from the feud, but Freddy is certainly NOT helpfull.
Really cannot see what SMG sees in him, but you know what they say: Love is blind. I wonder, since SMG is doing pretty well outside of Buffy, just how much interest she will have in reprising the role. I think it would take a VERY good script to tempt her.


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[> [> [> I think we're all putting words in peoples' mouths -- Eurydice, 11:55:58 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.23.109)

Regardless of what been spread around the internet, we really can only guess how Joss and all the actors felt then and feel now. From what I've seen, it seems that SMG has never been much interested in identifying herself with Buffy, even during the years when we all think things were going well - so I don't think that even a VERY good script would tempt her - but that's just my opinion.

You're right that there were a lot of unanswered questions in the Buffyverse, but I don't think that any of them related to Buffy herself - her story is over. However, there's lots more to say about the true nature of Slayers, what happens next now that there are zillions of them, what about the Watchers, what about Willow and the coven, who are the Guardians, and so forth. We don't really need Buffy for any of that. And that's why I think a TV movie would be more appropriate - for one, TV is the better medium for telling a serialized story and for another, a big budget feature would require the name recognition of Buffy who has nothing more to say for herself.

And geting back to Joss - Joss is hotter now than he was when Serenity was greenlighted - the success of the advanced screenings and good press have seen to that. That's one reason why he's got Wonder Woman coming up - I'm not quite sure why you keep ignoring that.


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[> [> [> [> Re: I think we're all putting words in peoples' mouths -- John, 15:52:08 07/31/05 Sun [1] (64.19.85.104)

If serenity does not do BIG business then it is allon wonder woman- and frankly, I have a hard time thinking that that will be a big hit. Its all about two things- money and awards: neither of those movies will win awards, so they MUST make big money. Joss is not all that hot- UNTILL he makes a big movie that hits hard. Simple facts of Hollywood.
You are in a distinct minority about Buffy's story being over (that cookie dough is not done yet). Also- what are the chances of even a TV movie getting a decent budget if SMG is not playing Buffy? As time goes by (and Hollywood OFTEN has a very short memory) the chances of that movie slowly decrease. I disagree about SMG's interest in Buffy- she is fully aware that she is where she is because of it- and if a really good script comes up she will probably take it. That depends on how successfull she is at the time. ALso= she has expressed a lot of interest in starting a family; that would take her out of the business for at least a year- in that case, when she is looking to start working again, that kind of offer might hook her.
There is a lot of interest in the other charactors by the fans- but is it enough to make the studio's or the networks pony up good money? That is a question. The way Hollywood is run anymore, they do not want to tamper with the cast of a movie based on a TV series when the actors are available. If Joss gets early approval of such a movie, SMG being in it would probably be a must.


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[> [> [> [> [> Hey to preaching to the choir here John. -- Christian who's nodding in agreement, 16:05:39 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

I forgot about the "cookie dough speech" she's not done baking. So yeah there is more story to tell I guess.

But I honestly don't think SMG would return to TV for a "Buffy" reunion movie. It would have to be a feature film that brings her back. I could see an Eliza Dushku doing a feature film for "Faith" and that's because she has done a few of those in the past. And she has a "screen presence" that kind of grabs you. For me anyway.


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[> [> [> [> [> I don't think I'm in a distinct minority -- Eurydice, 18:06:02 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.26.135)

We only have to look at the dying fan boards and lack of fan fic to see that peoples' interests are moving on. And those of us left might be itching to see more of Buffy struggling with romantic angst and the dreary demands of daily life, but the guys who produce action/genre films sure aren't. I think the chances of any BtVS/AtS movie, TV or feature, are pretty slim but since we're trading opinions, mine is that there's a better chance of getting one made without Buffy than with her.

Serenity doesn't have to do BIG business, it has to do good business - and this isn't some kind of do or die situation, either. Joss got Wonder Woman based on his accumulated body of work, his ability to tell good stories about strong women and his ability to create long-lasting myth. Even his detractors agree that when he focuses he can turn out terrific work. It's a great opportunity for him, he's finally getting some recognition and I say good for him.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm actually a bit afraid of what he'll do to Wonder Woman if you ask me... -- Christian, 18:37:14 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

While he did great for the character of "Buffy" the first five seasons he also diminished the character the final two. And you can go to any other forum and they'll ALL agree that "Buffy" wasn't likable or a character you could relate to in the end. And she wasn't the only character either to change so drastically.

So i'm basically praying "Wonder Woman" DOESN'T become a "Buffy" part deux IF the Wonder Woman film IS a hit and becomes a franchise.

Keeping fingers crossed here.



So i'm Split.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh and the reason i'm saying that is because I finally saw/heard Commentary 4 "Chosen" -- Christian, 18:47:26 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

JW seems very, um how can I say this, not all there? I was kind of shocked.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> huh? -- spiritus, 07:58:23 08/02/05 Tue [1] (4.252.146.57)

what on earth does that mean? he seemed pretty lucid to me. in fact joss does about the best commentaries around, imo. informative, deep, witty...i could go on. but -- i got it. sometimes artist are just shy of getting their point across. i saw what he was trying to do..i got it.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually no, the man came off as "confused" to me. -- Christian, 11:54:51 08/02/05 Tue [1] (209.240.205.62)

But if you really felt he was lucid then cool.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I don't know, Wonder Woman is just one movie -- Eurydice, 19:29:57 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.26.135)

It's just a couple of hours - and in those couple of hours he's got to establish who she is and where she's from and some sort of Bad Guy and some kind of peril, and she's got to figure out how to fight it and then she's got to fight it and then she's got to win - not to mention scoping out the modern world she enters and all the new people she meets and interacts with - and in between all that there might be about 3 minutes left for a bit of emotion and angst. Even if there's a sequel, we're still only talking about another couple of hours.

By the time Buffy crawled out of her coffin, we'd already been treated to 100 episodes devoted to her life and feelings - and each one had more focus on her than any movie would ever have because TV is a more character driven medium. I think that when a character becomes so finely detailed there's more risk of the audience not being able to see themselves in her - she begins to make decisions and to act in ways that we wouldn't choose or understand. I don't think this would happen in a movie about a new character, not unless he planned on making her difficult from the outset, and that doesn't seem likely.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ooops, sorry. I mised a line in your post. :-) -- Eurydice, 19:59:18 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.26.135)

I missed that your concern was if the movie was a success and if it became a franchise. Well, that would be terrific wouldn't it?

The thing is though that Joss didn't create Wonder Woman - he was hired to write and direct this film, so he'll put his interpretation on things, but he can't prevent others from interpreting her differently. I see it like the Batman franchise - they've had different writers and directors, even different actors, and sometimes Batman is broody and dark and sometimes he's lighter and campier, but he's always Batman. We say that we prefer one film over the other, but we don't say that Batman's been destroyed because he can always come back differently.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ahhh no sorry necessary hun, I know he's capable f writing "strong" female heroes -- Christian, 21:00:37 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

He did so, extremely well the first 5 seasons of Buffy. But then, well you know what happened after that.


He wants to put his own spin on it, I think he said and I quote "No one has met Wonder Woman YET" THAT is what kind of scares me. I mean hello we know who WW is.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, Joel Shumacher did actually destroy the franchise in "Batman and Robin" -- Christian, 21:08:11 07/31/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

You have to go to DC message boards to understand what I mean.

He completely changed the background story of "Batgirl, which was a DISASTER with a capital "DIE" saster! He's well known for killing the Batman franchise until "Batman Begins" came along. George Clooney on paper seemed like a good choice but on screen not so. He seemed liked he wanted to laugh in a couple of scenes in the movie. And That's during a "dramatic" moment. Like Alfred being close to death. Anyway just wanted to point that out.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> He couldn't have destroyed it if it came back -- Eurydice, 22:36:35 07/31/05 Sun [1] (141.154.26.135)

Yes, people were saying that George Clooney wasn't right or that various backstories were wrong or the direction sucked or whatever, but all those comments were about the movie, not about the character. I don't hang at DC message boards but on the other boards I've been to I never saw people saying that they'd lost all respect for Batman or that he was a immoral or a hypocrite - if there was anything bad to say it was directed at the filmmakers cuz everybody *knows* that Batman isn't really like that.

People are willing to separate the character from the filmmaker in a way that they're not willing to do with Joss and Buffy, and I think that's because Joss actually created Buffy. There isn't any authentic Buffy apart from what Joss has written, so when he makes her do something we don't like, that's not some guys interpretation, that's really what she is.

Joss didn't create Wonder Woman, so even if he shows us something new and improved and utterly crappy, he won't have destroyed her - we can always go back to the original and start again.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Damn you 4 making the sense girl! Time for a duel! -- Christian, 02:32:45 08/01/05 Mon [1] (209.240.205.62)

Oh just for get it you'll just wind up winning anyway ol' ways.

CURSES Foiled again!

HUGS!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually he didn't destroy it COMPLETELY, but he really damaged for awhile -- Christian, 17:53:08 08/01/05 Mon [1] (209.240.205.62)

I mean it took 8 years for them to come back with another one that 95% of the audience truly enjoyed.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What Happened to Buffy? -- Rosie, 18:10:57 08/02/05 Tue [1] (170.97.167.60)

"He did so, extremely well the first 5 seasons of Buffy. But then, well you know what happened after that."

Exactly what happened? She grew up? I was never that impressed by Seasons 1 or 2. Season 1 was mediocre and Season 2 seemed disjointed. Frankly, I prefer Seasons 6 and 7, in compare to those two. I guess I'm not just into "Classic" (if you want to call it that) Buffy.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually Season 2 was wht put Buffy AND The WB on the map -- Christian, 21:41:24 08/02/05 Tue [1] (209.240.205.62)

You really can NOT dispute that. Season 6 the ratings went down considerably and to never really gain the audience back.

And Buffy did NOT grow up! She was a confused little girl, hated life. That's not growing up hun. That's "DEPRESSION" something that the majority of the audience did not like. Especially her speeches. And it reflected that in the ratings.


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[> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- whoareu?, 05:59:39 08/02/05 Tue [1] (65.6.36.188)

Something definitely went wrong after season 5. I agree with that. But I also don't think that one person is to blame for it (even though I think one Mr. Whedon is the most to blame). It was a completely different show, and not in a good way. I hate reading on the boards how people defend season 6 and 7 by saying "Oh, they all had to grow up" and "that's what life is like". Well, a lot of the themes from season 6 could have been used, i.e, paying bills, but she couldve been written as happier. A lot of things should have gone differently. I wish I could go back to season 5 and change stuff.


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[> [> WhoAreU agreeing with your post totally. -- Christian, 12:04:41 08/02/05 Tue [1] (209.240.205.62)

And yes It totally gets my gander up when they say "that's what being an adult is like" WTF? Really? I didn't know I needed a crash course in "adulthood" AND "S&M".

The writers took a chance with season 6 and failed.


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[> Re: Prinze says no SMG in Buffy role -- StrengthInNumbers, 06:53:27 08/02/05 Tue [1] (72.16.97.244)

Quote: There isn't any authentic Buffy apart from what Joss has written, so when he makes her do something we don't like, that's not some guys interpretation, that's really what she is.

Wow! How brilliant is a creator...that in the final seasons- worked so hard at destroying his own creation. I know, I plan to watch more of JW's work. NOT!


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[> [> Strengthinnumbers can I get a hug? I'm glad you came to the board for ur own input. -- Christian, 11:50:20 08/02/05 Tue [1] (209.240.205.62)

And speaking of craptacular. I always felt that "B/S" was the worse thing the writers had EVER done to the show AND to Buffy's character, but what is done, is done.


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[> season 6 was brilliant, and just what i wanted -- spiritus, 08:22:58 08/02/05 Tue [1] (4.252.146.57)

sorry but there ARE people who liked season 6 and(somewhat) 7 so the fact that you get upset that someone is defending them is a little much. i don't like b/a but you don't find me complaining...well not vocally..on this board ,at least.
imo season 6 was brilliant---dark, but brilliant. some people like dark and others don't. aint it grand we all have different brains to think with?
i don't really think that he can f-up WW too much, even if he tried. there must be some form of checks and balances going on there. that being said --one or two seasons of (to some) not so up to par programing among 12 is nothing to me. i've SEEN t.v....it sucks.
and speaking as a star trek fan...we all got f-ed up the ass on THAT finale! i've never been so insulted in my life. there was absolutely NO redeeming quality to that pile of stench they tried to pass off as an episode. yeah...if joss ever did something like THAT, then i'd not watch anything by him again.. but since it would be virtually impossible for something that craptacular to occur naturally in life twice, then i think i'm safe with joss. always safe with joss. *relieved sigh*


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[> [> Well phfew!! Feel all better? ;-) -- Eurydice, 09:23:00 08/02/05 Tue [1] (141.154.24.35)

Soooooo agree about the Enterprise finale - ek, pftew, we shall speak of it no more.

And I agree about the rest - what, you say?!! Ok, I agree about WW and I agree about season 6 up until the last handful of episodes. I think Dead Things is one of the best episodes ever written and I think the way the all the characters were brought to a crisis point was brilliant (addiction metaphor notwithstanding and ok, they ignored the resolution of Xander's crisis) - but (ah, you knew this was coming) I don't think the writers took things far enough or fast enough. They let things sit in the middle of the depresso-road for a hair too long (they admit that) and they cheated Buffy out of a true epiphany by bringing her back to being the eternal victim.

The point of her epiphany should not have been that she wanted to live despite what others had done to her, but that she wanted to live despite her darker self - I know, they saved those revelations and the battle with her darker self for season 7, but by not addressing it in season 6, they left a cloud of delusion and hypocrisy over Buffy because the audience knew that many of Buffy's problems over the season were self-inflicted. It's funny how one or two choices can change the way we look at an entire story.

Season 7, I agree on the "somewhat" - there were some great episodes and some terrible ones, and it's a shame that the storyline was so disjointed.


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[> [> Not Disjointed -- Rosie, 18:15:02 08/02/05 Tue [1] (170.97.167.60)

"Season 7, I agree on the "somewhat" - there were some great episodes and some terrible ones, and it's a shame that the storyline was so disjointed."

Frankly, I thought that Season 2 was disjointed, not Season 7. Season 2 had the potential to be great, but it was too disjointed to me, and the only characters that really seemed to hold it together were Drusilla . . . and especially Spike. And some of the moments in the Angelus arc seemed anti-climatic . . . especially when he first lost his soul.

I'm not that crazy about mid-Season 7 - from "Bring on the Night" to "The Killer in Me", but I enjoyed that season a little more than I did Season 2.


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[> [> [> Well, I wasn't comparing it to other seasons -- Eurydice, 21:07:05 08/02/05 Tue [1] (141.154.25.163)

I just felt that the beginning, middle and ends of the season were all going in different directions. Characters and plot lines and various ideas kept being floated and then abandoned - and everytime they introduced something which made me thingk "ah, this is interesting, I wonder where they'll go with it," I was disappointed to find that they went nowhere with it. That's why I found the individual episodes to be more interesting than the season as a whole.


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[> [> I think there's a difference between "Dark" and "Depressing" -- Christian, 10:08:58 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

And while "some" fans enjoyed it the vast majority didn't. As I had stated in my above post the ratings reflected on how the mass audience couldn't connect with the show anymore.


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[> [> [> vast majority-schmority. how do you know? -- spiritus, 13:42:59 08/03/05 Wed [1] (4.252.151.45)

i mean really, did you poll EVERY one of the fans who bought the dvd's in EVERY country and the one's who saw it on network t.v.? even the ones that have no internet access? what about the percentage of americans who couldn't get upn? we just got it here in '99. pretty much just in time for season 6 and i was in milwaukee. sweeping generalizations are nobody's friend. vast majority? THAT was an extreme assumption on your part, i believe.
and yes, one person's "depressing" can, as well, be another's "dark". it depends wholly on where you are coming from in life, state of mind, life experience, etc. again, that was another assumption from you.(that everyone is coming from where you are)
i take from things what i can, when i can. sometimes one can't handle it; not in a certain frame of mind. i don't always feel the need to watch that season, sometimes feel i can't handle it, emotionally. but that is based on similarities that i find to my own life, that are still painful. i have honestly learned a lot about myself from watching, slowly registering ALL that that season meant.--- but it doesn't prohibit me from believing it was one of the best. i like a little pain in my programming. i understand pain. therefore it is one of the best, in my opinion.
and frankly, the "majority" can go stuff themselves. i certainly never wanted to be considered as that, or under those terms. never gave me any sense of security in my OWN beliefs. is it about the power in numbers? more people like it one way, so therefore it must be CORRECT way? outrageous.


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[> [> [> [> adding on... -- spiritus, 14:58:58 08/03/05 Wed [1] (4.252.147.87)

i really feel that 'dark' can be depressing, but does not have to be. just as 'depressing' can be dark, but it isn't always. actually, imo 'darkness' encompasses a whole wealth of things that may or may not include depression/depressing. it's just a differing opinion on the nature of the word.


and really, don't underestimate the numbers of 'fans' that couldn't get upn and couldn't afford cable. as it was i had the crapiest reception on both the wb and upn, but those really were the only shows i watched and i was poor. i loaned my tapes out muchly...those on the first floor sometimes can't get the reception. maybe they work and have no vcr or no tv. and who's to say that a 'fan' has to watch every episode and be "counted". like that means anything anyway (see angel, the show). so if my friends watched it later and DID connect with seasons 6-7, i guess they're not in that vast majority so they don't "count" as the "audience"? B.S.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: adding on...Besides the way you put it.... -- Christian, 18:09:08 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

Think of it this way, how many people DO carry UPN but don't have the internet and instead wrote letters to Joss and complained about season 6? SMG didn't quite like it herself.


You may like watching "people suffer" in your programming as for me? I don't get my kicks by watching people go through pain. It's kind of disturbing. But that's just me.

Let's just agree to disagree.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> never said i liked watching people suffer -- spiritus, 03:16:58 08/04/05 Thu [1] (4.252.150.142)

i said that i learned about myself from watching that...way different thing, man. open your peepers. it informed me about life--an imperfect life at that; one that resembles in some fashion, my own. so, seriously, don't try to make me into a bad person by implying something like i'm sadistic (like to watch people suffer) and then say 'well let's just agree to disagre'.i just don't downshift that fast.
but yeah, thanks for the insult and run. that was cool.


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[> [> [> [> Um Joss Whedon EVEN made season 7 lighter because of many fans complaints. -- Christian, 18:01:52 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

Take the time go to different boards BESIDES this one and you'll see that majority of the fans wasn't fond of season 6. And season 7 started out with promise just to stumble to the end.

Anyway as long as YOU enjoyed that's all that should matter. Right?


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[> [> [> [> [> have "taken the time" -- spiritus, 03:37:28 08/04/05 Thu [1] (4.252.150.142)

everything you say is based on opinion ,not fact, as well as me. i'm adressing the all or nothing attitude you have. you speak in sweeping generalizations and that's not the truth--it is the truth as you know it. everything is subjective. again "majority"-- i don't really care what the majority thinks. yeah, pretty much it only matters what i think. as it only matters what you think when you are thinking. i don't claim to know what the vast majority wants, ever. i don't pretend to speak for others, only myself. i can't begin to even get inside other people's heads to speak on a large percentages behalf. THAT was what i was originally adressing. using words like all , majority, most etc. because really, no one knows that--you'd have to be omnipotent or really arrogant. but see i'm really okay with that because i connected with it so yeah--- all about me=my opinion=may not mean squat to anyone else=i don't really care. by saying that "the audience didn't connect", and being that i did connect, that says that i am not the audience.


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[> [> [> [> I don't know about vast majority -- Eurydice, 21:00:29 08/03/05 Wed [1] (141.154.23.82)

But there were a lot of people who were unhappy with the season. I was part of a large group who would either get together to watch Buffy or call each other during the show, and by the end of season 6, I was the only one left watching. These aren't people who post on message boards or send letters to the writers, they're just ordinary viewers who decided to change the channel.

And their reason for changing the channel wasn't that the show dealt with dark and/or adult themes, it's that the show got boring. Every week Buffy was depressed, every week she was miserable about something - life sucked, wha, wha, wha. And they got tired of the weekly Buffy/Spike "Punch and Judy Show," which became so predictable you could see the train wreck coming from a mile away. Even this wouldn't have been a problem if there'd been another plot to break up the monotony, but when the real Big Bad of the season was Buffy's depression, it was hard to find a distraction.

I know that depression can't be cured over night (if at all), but on TV there's a reason why you don't see a driver circling the block for an hour, looking for a parking place - it might be real life, but it's not interesting.


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[> [> [> [> [> I hate you Eurydice..... -- Christian, 22:15:18 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)

Always coming in, making a point driving it home without being nasty, snarky but by just being nice and intelligent about it. DAMN IT!!!


;) HUGS!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Love! Hate! Love! Hate! It's almost like Spuffy!! ;-) -- Eurydice (hugs and smoochies), 00:35:27 08/04/05 Thu [1] (141.154.23.82)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But at least we don't go "smacking each other up" LoL! -- Christian, 08:11:41 08/04/05 Thu [1] (209.240.205.62)

And at least I have the balls to admit you are WAY smarter than me!


And love you!!


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[> Re: Christain, 2 tight squeezing hugs coming your way !! ; ) -- strengthinnumbers, 15:51:24 08/06/05 Sat [1] (72.16.97.244)

*Wheeze* *Cough* *Pant* Maybe, not too tight...Still, recovering from a bad Sinus infection/Pneumonia.:(

There are some comments I wish to address...gonna wait though...Pneumonia tends to make me very NOT nice and this visit has made me tired.




SIN


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