VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 123[4] ]


[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 19:29:45 08/04/05 Thu
Author: Dogma
Author Host/IP: 149.142.46.139
Subject: Poll: Which was a bigger S6 plothole?

In your opinion, which was the biggest S6 plothole (or, to put it more gently, which was hardest to swallow).

1). Giles ditching the gang w/o a Slayer and defenseless in Sunnydale, not to mention leaving Dawn w/o a real adult or father figure around.

2). Xander leaving Anya at the altar. Those two loved the hell out of each other Xander walks away b/c of a few nasty visions? Smells of contrivance.

3). Giles ditching Buffy (and Dawn) after Buffy is brought back when Buffy is barely hanging on. True, Buffy needs to learn to stand on her own, but was now really the time for tough love? And what about Dawn.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]


Replies:

[> None of them are plotholes -- Michael, 20:03:12 08/04/05 Thu [1] (66.44.2.145)

1) Giles is in Sunnydale as Buffy's Watcher. That's how he thinks of himself. Without Buffy, there's no one to be a Watcher for. Remember that he was getting ready to leave at the beginning of Season 5 until Buffy asked him to stay. And the gang is hardly defenseless with Willow and Tara around. Not to mention Spike.

2) Xander was having serious doubts almost from the time he proposed. The visions just were the last straw. Spending so much time with his family, and getting an extended close-up view of his parent's marriage probably didn't help.

3) Giles honestly believed that the only way that Buffy WOULD ever stand on her own was if he wasn't there (while probably mistaken, this wasn't entirely unreasonable). And as far as Dawn is concerned (as he pointed out late in Season 5) Buffy is family, he isn't.


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> Fair enough. Maybe I should have said, "which bothers you more" -- Dogma, 20:30:28 08/04/05 Thu [1] (149.142.46.139)


[ Edit | View ]


[> 2 -- MTsFan, 21:51:57 08/04/05 Thu [1] (24.1.76.203)

I actually favored Giles doing something to get Buffy to grow up and grow into her responsibilities.

Xander backing out of the wedding was another of Joss' attempts to prevent anyone on the series - anyone at all- from having a lasting relationship or anything resembling happiness. That's been hard for me to swallow. Xanya or letting Tara live would have left one lasting, happy relationship that would have contrasted with the other broken or unworkable ones and made them even more poignant.


[ Edit | View ]



[> Plothole or plot necessity? -- Moscow Watcher, 06:18:47 08/05/05 Fri [1] (83.237.227.126)

AFAIK, Giles, departure had been cause by ASH's desire to spend more time with his family. Xander needed an arc. What kind of arc could you imagine for him? We know that initially Joss planned a very dark journey for Xander: Joss' "plan A" was to make Xander, instead of Ben, Glory's human host. But that arc could be acceptable only as a final twist. Could Joss develop "dark!Xander" journey - making, for example, him, instead of Caleb, The First's vessel? Judging by the similarity of Glory/Ben and The First/Caleb situations, I think, Joss gave a thought or two about that option. But what ark could work for season 6? I just don't see any other viable options. Do you?


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> This way he ended up with no arc at all -- Eurydice, 09:37:40 08/05/05 Fri [1] (141.154.24.189)

The thing about the Xander/Anya arc is that it ended up being about Anya not Xander. Other than a bit of gloomy walking around in the rain, Xander wasn't affected by it at all. And actually, we never saw Xander affected by anything except in a superficial way. You'd think that having an eye poked out would be cause for some introspection, but we got more of how Buffy felt about it than anything, which I suppose is all they could have done so late in the series.

Over all, it seems as if the male characters existed only to propel the female characters' storylines, which is why Giles' departures ended up being about Buffy's abandonment issues rather than Giles trying to help her and build a new life for himself.


[ Edit | View ]


[> 2 -- Emily, 08:35:14 08/05/05 Fri [1] (192.198.151.129)

Nobody seemed allowed to have a happy ending.


[ Edit | View ]



[> Re: Poll: Which was a bigger S6 plothole? -- ramses 2, 09:34:54 08/05/05 Fri [1] (69.242.120.180)

In your opinion, which was the biggest S6 plothole (or, to put it more gently, which was hardest to swallow).

1). Giles ditching the gang w/o a Slayer and defenseless in Sunnydale, not to mention leaving Dawn w/o a real adult or father figure around.


I'm tempted to just say plot necessity. However, Giles may have been an adult but he like every other character was on a journey. We'll see later that he, like Buffy appear to be stronger/different than other watcher/slayers but underneath they harbor fears that perhaps the old traditional ways(the ways that tell them they're misfits) are right and they're somehow screwing up.

Buffy had died. She died doing something that wsn't what a slayer should do. She sacrificed herself before Dawn. She put love before mission. This had to have made Giles feel he utterly failed. So it's back to the council he goes....though true to form we learn he makes a connection with a coven. All along we see the characters on a stumbling in the dark journey to their real selves.....even when they're off screen. So, no, it doesn't bother me.

2). Xander leaving Anya at the altar. Those two loved the hell out of each other Xander walks away b/c of a few nasty visions? Smells of contrivance.


Chani very often brings up a Joss quote where he compares his work to music. Where themes are played and then variations on the theme. Xander's story always held echoes of Buffy's, so we see him end a relationship with Anya in 6 because of fears about himself.(Much as Buffy's fears of self made her both start and stop her relationship with Spike.) Does he still love her? Clearly. But their relationship, again like spuffy, changes as we go through season 7 and watch Xander appear to grow up. What tips us off that he, like Buffy is still cookie dough? We see that women are still 'demons' for him. So even though he's become a capable boss and appears the most mature, he still hasn't addressed what made him bolt from the wedding. He still is afraid of who he might be. It's the fear of the unknown. We can see it, it's right there the whole season long, Xander still loves Anya. But she's still the demon for him. Still the unknown. Though I think the blinding of Xander represented a lot of other things, it also represented his half blind state regarding himself. And as Anya represents the side of himself that he fears, that's what he's too scared to examine, or really see.(Remember Caleb worked on people's deepest darkest fears) And continuing the Buffy correlation, when he says, 'that's my girl' it is his equivalent to Buffy's gasp and ILY to Spike. At that moment he really sees Anya.(and yes, after we are shown that he can't find her) It's essentially both characters[buffy and xander] realizing that what they feared about themselves wasn't bad or dark after all, in fact something worth embracing and loving.

So, while I agree Hell's Bells seemed lame, my answer in short is that it was and was supposed to be in a way. Evryone's fears were supposed to be seen as dark and formidable. A huge mistake if examined too closely. Better to break up and stay the same.(Note Buffy wanted everything to stay the same too) But you can't grow up that way.

3). Giles ditching Buffy (and Dawn) after Buffy is brought back when Buffy is barely hanging on. True, Buffy needs to learn to stand on her own, but was now really the time for tough love? And what about Dawn.

I actually think the musical handled this beautifully. Again, Giles isn't the cliche older person with all the answers. He makes mistakes. He blunders. He tries to do what's right. He loves Buffy. He's lost her. He's had to realize that if he trains her wrong she's dead.....but if he trains her right, she's dead. Joyce raised her to be a strong woman. Giles has just realized he's raised her to die. And he's watched her die already. She's now way past the age most slayers survive to and yet he knows she's still a girl. What he doesn't know...what we find out in 7 is that unless something changes, the slayer doesn't ever grow up and stand on her own. She's meant to put the mission first and die young. Buffy's choice in The Gift is coming back in 7 to force both Giles and Buffy into finishing that journey of self.(So no real plot holes)


[ Edit | View ]



[> Re: Poll: Which was a bigger S6 plothole? -- Rosie, 11:11:11 08/05/05 Fri [1] (170.97.167.60)

"3). Giles ditching Buffy (and Dawn) after Buffy is brought back when Buffy is barely hanging on. True, Buffy needs to learn to stand on her own, but was now really the time for tough love? And what about Dawn."

Yes. Buffy had to grow up. She had a sister to take care of. If Giles had remained, she would have done her level best to depend upon him and he IS NOT HER FATHER OR HER GUARDIAN. He was her Watcher by her consent only. And as she proved by the end of Season 5, she didn't need a Watcher any longer. To be honest, if Buffy had taken the time to study about the supernatural and learned more than just the "Hand" aspect of slaying, she would not have needed a Watcher by the end of Season 1.


[ Edit | View ]






Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.