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Date Posted: 11:09:31 02/26/09 Thu
Author: Carol P
Subject: Bravo, Holly. And perhaps that's Jocasta's greatest wrong, she was a slave owner. I'll grant that a person can't change the society, but a person can, like Claire, refuse to participate in a great wrong. The queasiness you speak of was made real for me when Jamie explained to Claire why he couldn't take Jocasta's offer. He said he couldn't live knowing there was a man who thought of him as he had thought of those who owned Himself.
In reply to: HollyC 's message, "This is very off topic - but in reading this excellent intro (thanks Jessie and Catherine) the crossing the line bit also reminded me of a line Claire tries not to cross: having as little as possible to do with slavery. River Run would have made a home full of creature comforts for her, and given Jamie a place to run in a Lallybroch type of manner, yet Claire just knows to stay away from the poisened fruit, so to speak. And maybe thats why I have a hard time with the 2 relationships we are discussing here. No matter how DG weaves in the love angle (Jocasta freeing Ulysses years before he leaves, etc) there was something about these plots that left me queasy. I'll admit my US history/slavery knowledge is weak, but the players are coming from such unlevel fields I have a hard time thinking that without freedom of choice on all sides, there could have been 'true' relationships." on 05:57:32 02/26/09 Thu


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[> [> [> Carol—I go back and forth about Jocasta. She’s a slaveholder, which is repugnant, but she’s also a victimized woman who has fought back, albeit in ways not always honorable. I dislike her ethics, but I admire her guts. So, my question is this: would a woman like this be in a long-term sexual relationship with her manservant, and if so, why? What do we know about Jocasta prior to the revelation of this relationship that suggests her true companion in life would be Ulysses? Or is there something in the novel that indicates she chose him because she never again would be subordinate to a man? -- JessieR, 18:30:51 02/26/09 Thu


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[> [> [> [> I can't think of anything conclusively stated to answer your questions, but I have trouble seeing subtle psychological clues. I fear my ideas about Jo are the result of my engaging in affective fallacy again. *g* I find it believable that Jo would have such a relationship. Like all people, Jo would want, and respond to, love. U was there all day every day, kind, considerate, helpful. I can see the relationship developing over time. Remembering Kathleen M's point about Jo's blindness, that might have been a big factor in removing the race question for both Jo and U. Remember the scene on the stair when Claire (or Bree?) came down the stairs all dressed up and surprised Ulysses giving her an unguarded stare of male appreciation? There's no indication ever that Jo was unkind to any of the slaves, so they both could have privately ignored the slavery issue. I doubt Jo deliberately chose U because she wouldn't be subordinate, but that certainly would be a plus factor she'd appreciate. -- Carol P, 09:24:55 02/27/09 Fri


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[> [> [> CarolP -- about your insight that Jocasta's greatest wrong was that she was a slaveowner. I meant to reply last week, but it took me a while to remember why your observation was so meaningful to me, and now I realize that it has reactivated a debate from my earliest exposure to American lit. (I'm a Canadian, so I'm no expert!) Going long>>> -- CatherineM., 10:39:05 03/06/09 Fri

When I first encountered Twain's Huckleberry Finn, I remember a controversy among critics about the ending of the book -- the long-drawn out nonsense in Tom Sawyer's scheme to "rescue" Jim in a fanciful way, all derivative from his reading of things like the Count of Monte Cristo. The argument was that Twain bungled the ending. The silliness at the Phelpses' farm undermines the pattern established earlier, in which the episodes clearly imply stronger and stronger social criticism and a deeper preoccupation with the nature of and need for freedom, and it trivializes Huck and Jim's harrowing quest for liberty. It's a striking and persuasive argument, but so is the rebuttal -- that by placing Jim's capture at the Phelpses' farm, after the sequence of events that represents human nature (or at least American frontier society) as worse and worse (the Duke and Dauphin's frauds, the shooting of Old Boggs etc.) the further they go south, Twain is actually implying that the sins of the middle-class Bible-reading Phelpses (they actually do go down to read the Bible to Jim after imprisoning him) are even worse than those of their precursors in the narrative: the greatest obscenity is not the abuse of slaves, but the simple fact of owning slaves in the first place, even by kindly simpletons like the Phelpses. Like the Phelpses, Jocasta feeds and clothes her slaves well, and it is true that they have a materially more comfortable life that they might have had even if free, and yet it's clear, I think, that we are meant to share J and C's discomfort with the entire institution. And I'm still mystified by Jocasta's motives in having Phaedre as her own body servant.

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[> [> [> [> Golly, it's been ages since I read or thought about Huck Finn. Having grown up in the segregated South, I knew lots of Phelpses. I'm tempted to say that kind of person is the worst when injustice walks the land, although that may be a bit harsh. Still, it's easy to recognize and fight the Simon Legrees. It's much harder to see and overcome apathy and rationalization. And it's hard for me to be impartial on the question of freedom since I just can't abide anyone telling me what to do. I wouldn't do well in a retirement home, the idea of someone deciding what I eat and when I eat it, what I do today, just infuriates me. So when I read of a real evil like slavery, my imagination fills in the details all too clearly. I too am mystified by Jocasta's motives in keeping Phaedre so close. Did she mean to pamper Phaedre or humiliate Betty? Either one gives me the willies. -- Carol P, 19:11:44 03/06/09 Fri


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