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Date Posted: 11:55:32 09/02/09 Wed
Author: Tess
Subject: This is a good point, Helka. For me it's the ~relationship~ between Jamie and Claire. We get a glimpse of the man alone in the beginning half of Voyager, and he seemed a bit hollow without his Claire, in my opinion. I think it is his devotion to Claire and how he interacts with her that makes him so appealing to me.
In reply to:
Helka
's message, "Some time ago I turned the situation over and wondered if we women would be OK if our DHs would have a crush on this Xena/Angelina Jolie-like amazing godess-warrior and shared his thoughts online with dozens of other men worldwide. This doesn't sound good at all. Well my take on this is that everything Jamie is/does is shared by Claire, it's her telling us about Jamie, not the author or the man himself. The indirect relationship keeps me at arm's length from Jamie. I hope you get my meaning, but the man, Jamie, is not necessarily what he really is, we get Claire's interpretation of him. So I'm not that much obsessed by his character. And I've read a few other historical novels with an almost similar male character." on 09:23:42 09/02/09 Wed
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Gosh, Helka. You posed a great question! I read your first sentence and realized I’d be REALLY pissed if my husband regularly went to a discussion forum to blab about a voluptuous, brave, intelligent female character in a novel he kept reading over and over again. Not only would I be pissed; I’d be worried! So, why don’t I see a problem with MY doing it? I’d like to say I get some distance through Claire’s 1st-person narration, but to be honest, I don’t. In many ways, that narration feels like a bit of a ruse to me since Jamie’s comments are repeated verbatim and in his own accent. Am I supposed to believe Claire is talking like that? I think this is one of the oddities of the 1st-person point of view: in order to have dialogue, the narrator has to function like a ventriloquist or mimic part of the time. Jamie’s speech is so distinctive in its cadence, and his diction and accent so different from Claire’s, that when he talks, I hear Jamie rather than Claire’s impression of him. -- 
JessieR, 20:56:59 09/03/09 Thu
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Jessie asks "So, why don’t I see a problem with MY doing it?" The answer is you're thinking about only a part of what you're doing. Anytime we find something interesting or fun or intriguing or ? we want to share it. I'd be willing to bet a bottle of 15 year old Laphroig that most of us have tried to share these books with the men in our lives and would gladly obsess about them with those men too. So if your husband was sharing his obsession with you in addition to other new friends, would you still be pissed or worried? -- Carol P, 17:41:02 09/04/09 Fri
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AAHHH Carol! You would have to ask me a question like that! You’re absolutely right that sharing the obsession is a great part of the pleasure. I’m just not sure I want to share it with my husband, and I don’t know if I’d want him to share his with me. Don’t get me wrong—I’m crazy in love with the guy, even after 35 years of marriage. But how do I tell him that there’s this perfect, imaginary guy that gripped my senses for weeks after reading Outlander? He’s so grounded in reality that I’d be embarrassed. Even more troublesome--if he talked about an obsession with a perfect, imaginary woman, all I’d be thinking is, “He’s saying I’m not good enough for him.” I’d be fascinated by what he had to say, but I would constantly be comparing myself to a fantasy that wasn’t me. >>>inside>>> -- JessieR, 18:24:33 09/04/09 Fri
I think part of this is just the need for some mental privacy, even between a husband and wife who are happily married, and not all married couples require the same amount of it. But I’m also wondering if men and women just process fantasy differently. For all I know, my husband might find it endlessly fascinating that I’m obsessed with some fictional male character, and he’s such a “cocky b*astard” that he’d probably listen to me yak and say, “Yea—no wonder she likes him. He’s just like me!” :)
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Well knock me over with a feather, I'm astonished. And all of you come on over, I'm pouring. I think I must have skipped over the comparison of myself to a fantasy part. I've always looked like a refugee camp resident, which was really tough growing up in the Marilyn Monroe era, so I envy ladies with round, soft parts. Fantasy comparisons are nothing beside real ones. I have other charms. -- Carol P, 20:53:54 09/04/09 Fri
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Perhaps for some readers, the reading experience is analogous to Jamie's observation that marriage has room for secrets, but not lies? -- CatherineM., 05:59:26 09/05/09 Sat
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Catherine! That's a wonderful insight! It feels right on the mark, to me. Another thing I've been realizing is that my DH is more pieved about my obsession with LOL than he ever was about my obsessive reading of The Books...not that I can blame him...nothing seems to ever get done around here [I mean my physical "here"]. -- fionaj, 07:11:32 09/05/09 Sat
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I haven't actually shared too much about the books with DH. I guess I too would feel embarrassed...and I do think he would feel just as inadequate as I would in the opposite position. Just thinking about it now, though, I do have to say that I'm no longer as obsessed with Jamie per se as I was at first. I see him more as a major cog in the works of an intricate clock...if he stopped, so would the clock, but many other parts are needed for the movements to run smoothly. -- fionaj, 19:31:46 09/04/09 Fri
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Carol! How many of us need to say we haven't shared much of this with our husbands to get our hands on that bottle of 15yo?? ;-) -- fionaj, 19:33:36 09/04/09 Fri
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fionaj—loved your metaphor of the clock! Spot on! -- JessieR, 19:40:58 09/04/09 Fri
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Can anyone think of a particular female character in literature or film, or??? that's portrayed anything like Jamie? I mean the looks, brains, courage, magnetism, strength of body and character, compassion? Could Claire be such a character, or would this woman have to be "voluptuous"? If such a character has been written, would our male counterparts be having similar discussions about the issues raised in her story? I have a difficult time imagining that. Also, if we can't think of such a character, what does that say? -- fionaj, 18:17:56 09/04/09 Fri
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PS: I really hope someone comes back and tackles this one...I suddenly want very much to know if there's an answer. -- fionaj, 18:21:14 09/04/09 Fri
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Great question, fionaj. Men may not have an equivalent character like Claire to obsess about because they don't read enough fiction to find one, nor do they gather in groups to talk about fiction the way women do. I live just outside of Washington, DC, and we have a marvelous independent bookstore called Politics & Prose. One of the owners likened the men and women who enter her shop to people who peel off at a wedding. The women go to the bride's side (fiction), and the men go to the groom's side (history, biography, politics). Since publishers want to sell books, they may be choosing to publish more books that appeal primarily to female readers, the biggest audience for fiction. The New York Times has an article about this: "Women Buy Fiction in Bulk and Publishers Take Notice." >>>inside>>> -- JessieR, 19:36:52 09/04/09 Fri
I'm wondering if comic book heroines, at least some of the late 20thC voluptuous ones, might be a symbolic equivalent to Claire for men, especially young men. Fiction may be a woman's domain right now, but men buy a lot of comic books. (Manga, however, draws a strong female readership). With comic book super heroines, you get exaggerated sexual characteristics in a visual image, plus you get an action-packed story line. Plus, while these "Wonder Women" characters are fierce, strong, and heroic, they often end up deferring to or being saved by their superhero men. Maybe that's what men find appealing: a strong, independent, and beautiful woman who despite her courage and talent still needs a man. Hmm...sounds like our Claire! I wonder if DG's decision to create a graphic novel version of Outlander is an attempt to expand her audience of male readers and make Claire an object of their obsession!
Last edited by author: Sat September 05, 2009 08:20:46
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Thank you, thank you , thank you, Jessie! Now I can go read the Times article and obsess about this question before I go to sleep! [g] I'm very uninformed about the whole comic book scene, but find your comparison intriguing. I have a little smile going here, because I'm trying to imagine what male readers would say if super heroine Claire said "I own you, too, man" to super hero Jamie, and he replied "And I ken that very well indeed." Good Night...if I come up with some thoughts about this, I'll be back in the morning. -- fionaj, 20:02:25 09/04/09 Fri
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I think Claire would qualify as such a character and I thought she was voluptuous. After all she saves lives and kills wolves and buffalo and soldiers. To seriously answer your question, the one that popped into my mind is Dagny Taggart from Atlas Shrugged, although she's lacking some of your listed characteristics. Scarlett O'Hara? Thinking on this, could the problem be that most stories about women are how they cope with stuff that happens to them rather than about characters who go out and DO things. Jessie may be on to something with the comic books. Maybe it's a time/historical problem. Large numbers of women growing up thinking they can conquer the world are just now in their forties. Maybe we'll see more fiction in the next few decades with characters like Fiona described. Since I drank Jessie's and Fiona's scotch for them, I can't think anymore. Slainte! -- Carol P, 21:41:48 09/04/09 Fri
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Hi Carol. I’m glad you enjoyed the scotch…I did too! While Jamie is obviously very appreciative of Claire’s looks, I don’t think they would get her a centerfold in Playboy. Now Jamie…he’s another story! ;-) To me, [and to Jamie, I think] Claire is a super heroine; but to the modern male reader? It may come back to the question of how Jamie sees himself as a man, and as Jessie suggests above, how they interact. Hmmmm…>>>> -- fionaj, 08:02:55 09/05/09 Sat
I haven’t read nearly as much as all of you [embarrassed]. Maybe some goddesses out of Celtic/Germanic/Greek mythology would qualify for super heroine status? They were probably all created by men [?], so how would that affect things? I’m not sure anyone ever obsessed over them, though. They’re probably in the same category as Kalypso who Jessie mentions above.
I haven’t watched TV shows for some years, but since last night, I’ve been wondering if Sydney Bristow from “Alias” would qualify as a modern super heroine? I think she was different than “Charlie’s Angels” [I never watched it, though] because there was a lot less emphasis on her sex appeal…and they “belong” to Charlie! I’m pretty sure there were a lot of men who liked the Sydney character a lot….but were they obsessed? Again, hmmmm. Did men write these shows? For a male audience? I don’t have any answers, but I’m still considering. Thanks for the responses, ladies. Now I have to go mow the lawn!!!
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As I prepare for a couple of days away…DH and I will be married 25 years on Tuesday!...I’ve come across the following articles which made me think of this wonderful conversation we had this week:>>>> -- fionaj, 08:54:30 09/06/09 Sun
Reading [or not] fiction [or not] in our lives:
Reading Underground, NYT, 9/3/09
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/nyregion/06reading.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/09/07/nyregion/nyc-subway-reading.html
“[…] Reading on the subway is a New York ritual, for the masters of the intricately folded newspaper […] since most trains are still devoid of Internet access and cellphone reception, the subway ride remains a rare low-tech interlude in a city of inveterate multitasking workaholics. And so, we read. […]”
Other Economists in the Room, Jane Smiley, 9/3/09
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/other-economists-in-the-r_b_277065.html
“[…] English majors understand human nature better than economists do. If, as Krugman said, "homo economicus" is perfectly rational, where did the folks who came up with this simplistic idea go to college, and didn't they read, say, Shakespeare, Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, Dickens, Trollope, Proust, Zola, or even Freud? […]”
Surge in Homeless Pupils Strains Schools, NYT, 9/509
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/education/06homeless.html?hp
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Happy anniversary, fionaj! Thanks for the links to these marvelous articles, and for all your great posts. I like the article about subway reading, since it's heartwarming to see how people still like to read books. I see people on the DC Metro reading all the time, so reports about the death of the book are "greatly exaggerated!" -- JessieR, 21:42:57 09/06/09 Sun
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