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Broch Talk Welcome to Broch Talk. Please do NOT originate posts on this board. Please use the Book Board for book posts, the Social Board for general hoserosity, the Joke Board for jokes, and so on. This board has a specific purpose: “A structured place for discussion of our favorite books," and we are sticking to it. Thank you. ~ : ~ Thanks for stopping by. Broch Talk is in limbo at the moment. As you can see in the archives, we have had polls, surveys, mini re-reads and trivia. If anyone has a burning desire to take the reins and start something, please contact me. :) ~ Judie Click on "contact forum admin" link above to e-mail me. How can YOU support the Ladies of Lallybroch? Click here to find out.

• Mini Reread Topic for January 2008: The Bonds (or lack thereof) of Sisterhood -- JessieR and CatherineM, 22:40:12 01/15/08 Tue
  One of the dominant themes in Diana Gabaldon’s most recent novel, Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade, is the ideal of brotherhood itself. Brotherhood—a bond, often unspoken, shared by men who oppose a common foe—threads it way into the plot from many directions. There is the literal brotherhood of Hal and John, the traditional brotherhood of men called to arms, and the clandestine brotherhood of homosexual men forced to love covertly. There is even the struggle for brotherhood between John and Jamie that began at Ardsmuir and simmers on the back burner at Helwater.
  
  So it’s no accident that the word “brotherhood” is in the title of this novel. Lord John struggles to be an honorable man by putting his duty to others, often other men, ahead of his own personal interests, and by doing so he embodies the core attributes of brotherhood and establishes his masculinity. The fact that Jamie Fraser espouses the same set of values is no accident, either, because brotherhood is one of the marquee themes of the Outlander novels, and he is the key purveyor of it.
  
  But is there an equivalent sense of sisterhood in these novels? There is honor among men, and even honor among thieves. Is there honor among women, too? Should Claire have been a leader of women, as Jamie is a leader of men? Do the women in these novels regard one another with mutual loyalty based on gender, and if so, does this bond enhance their femininity or detract from it? Or are DG’s female characters lone operators, strong enough to assert their independence and subvert male authority, but disinterested in acting out of some altruistic sense of loyalty for other members of their sex? Is the singular courage and sexiness of a Claire Fraser more feminine than the camaraderie of the Edinburgh whores who earn their living through sex?
  
  Actual sisters are hard to find, too. Brothers we get, starting with the most bodacious set of brothers in the books, Colum and Dougal MacKenzie, and ending with the feral, yet loving Beardsley boys. But sisters? Not many. And while we are privy to a great friendship between Jamie and Lord John, we don’t see a sustained friendship develop between Claire and another woman. Where are the great female bonds outside of family in these novels? Why can the men at Ardsmuir bond together when held captive in a prison, but Mrs. Chisholm, Mrs. Bug, and Mrs. Aberfeldy want to thrash each other when cooped up in the house at Fraser’s Ridge for a few weeks?
  
  Perhaps DG is accurately representing the way in which men and women differ in this regard, or perhaps she simply tends toward more flattering depictions of men in these novels because she finds more there to like. Do you sense an undertow of contempt for women in general in these books, especially when compared to DG’s charitable depiction of men? Dougal and Colum are ruthless yet admirable, and despite Dougal’s attempt on Claire’s life (and even Jamie’s, for that matter), Jamie makes peace with the man out of respect for his stature as a fighter. But Claire never summons Geilie Duncan’s fighting spirit to help strengthen her in some way. Dougal gets rehabilitated because he was a clansman and a brother-in-arms to Jamie, but Geilie remains a villain to Claire. No common bond there, despite the fact that Geilie is a fellow-time traveler and once saved Claire’s life. Or is DG on to something here: a woman just wouldn’t do this.
  
  The reading assignments for this topic focus primarily on Claire’s relationships, both successful and flawed, with other women, but you will also find other scenarios that depict women as a group in specifically female settings (the convent, the brothel, and the home). When you’ve reread these brief selections, consider the following questions:
  
  1. Do you feel Claire and Bree had an obligation to share their feminist thinking with the 18thC women they met? After all, Claire and Bree had no difficulty sharing their 20thC technologies (at least as far as they could). Or would such a social initiative on their part been more dangerous than the ether and matches they created?
  
  2. Does sisterhood flourish more easily among the Indian women who are not bound to the dictates of western, patriarchal culture?
  
  3. Is brotherhood simply more romantic and heroic than sisterhood and therefore more interesting to include in a novel?
  
  4. Or is it just more difficult for women to band together to oppose a common enemy when that enemy is often the person they care most about—the men they love who beat them, the pregnancies they want that endanger their lives, or the children they adore who claim so much of their time and energy? Could a woman in the 18th century put other women ahead of these demands? Can a woman in the 21st century do so, either?
  
  Many thanks to pamelalass for her help in developing this topic.
  
  Discussion will begin on Monday, January 21st.
  
  Reading assignments:
  
  Geilie & Claire: Outlander, CH 25: “Thou Shalt not Suffer a Witch to Live”
  
  Claire & Mother Hildegarde: Dragonfly in Amber, CH 15, “In Which Music Plays a Part”
  
  Claire & Louise de la Tour: Dragonfly in Amber, CH 26: “Fontainebleau,” up to the section that ends, “And so I seldom slept.”
  
  Claire, the prostitutes, & Jenny in Voyager, CH 26, “Whore’s Brunch,” from the section beginning, “This was becoming ridiculous,” to the section ending with “And with a thunder of boots on the wooden staircase”; CH 38, “I Meet a Lawyer,” up to the section ending with Ian’s funny quip, “’It’s worse. He’s brought a lawyer!’”
  
  The Council of Mothers, Tewaktenyonh, & Claire: Drums of Autumn, CH 57: “A Shattered Smile”
  
  Bree & the domestic disturbance in The Fiery Cross, CH 30, “Spawn of Satan”
  
  Claire & Malva in A Breath of Snow and Ashes, CH 22, “Ensorcellment” and CH 47, “Bees and Switches”
  

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  Replies:

  • I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to start this one off with a general comment. Not to criticize, you all know how much I love everything about the books, what we see certainly makes for wonderful reading. Still, I am thinking that aside from family, meaning Bree and Marsali, the only good long sustained female friendship Claire really had was with Mother Hildegarde. The others Geillis, Malva, Mrs. Bug and even Jenny all turned against her in the end. What must herself think of women? I can't help but think of how relieved Claire was to leave the women and their petty arguments behind when she went off to live with the discomforts and downright horrors of war with the men. How much Bree wanted to escape from the horrible women in the household in "Spawn of Satan". Hey, I love men too, but they aren't the only ones that can make long standing friendships and treat each other with honor and respect. (NT) -- Jane, 06:27:34 01/21/08 Mon
    • Thanks for getting us started, Jane! (NT) -- CatherineM., 09:20:15 01/21/08 Mon
  • Inre Jane's post: I hope that DG isn't saying anything particularly negative about women's friendships; she certainly hasn't done that on any site I've been on--I think that in this story, Claire simply has never been around women as much as men, consequently, she is more comfortable with them. I think she knows her own role better, feels freer regarding her normal personality and speech patterns and simply out of habit, congregates with men more often than women. She has made friends but due to the nature of her vagabond life, those friendships haven't been sustained. Claire is a bit of a fish out of water for the times; even Jenny, with her strength and force of Fraser will is better aware of her role as woman, and of course, Jenny is needed at home in a way that Claire never has been. If Jamie is the key that unlocked Claire's heart, he is also the key that allowed her to pursue and explore fully who she was/is as a woman and as a human being. (NT) -- KathleenM, 06:51:07 01/21/08 Mon
    • Please don't get me wrong Kathleen. I LOVE Claire, Bree, Marsali, Jenny, even Jocasta and Benedicta (John's mother). I think these brilliant, strong, funny, talented women help make these stories so AMAZING. It's just that the men seem to be able to form permanent bonds and deep abiding friendships. I thought a good jumping off point might be why can't the women? Like Jenny are they too wrapped up in the running of households and caring for families? I can't help but think of Louise in Paris, she seemed a good friend but Claire didn't seem to have a lot of respect for her as a person. Nothing like a good controversy to get things going eh? (NT) -- Jane, 07:02:15 01/21/08 Mon
    • I was thinking that maybe it has to do with the time (18th century), women aren't really allowed to go about on their own. They have to worry about how it will look if they go away from their home to seek others out, so they stay where they are, at home. Jenny herself says she has never been more then 10 miles from Lallybroch. The women seem to always sense something different about Claire, so they keep a distance from her. Claire feels this and just immerses herself in her work and Jamie. (NT) -- LisaW, 07:30:30 01/21/08 Mon
    • I agree with Kathleen here. Probably gonna go long >>> -- Natalie C., 13:47:04 01/21/08 Mon
      • That's an interesting perspective about your school experience, NatalieC. When I went to grad school, the profs commented that we were the 1st all-Canadian class in a while (if not the 1st ever - can't remember) while we (the students) were struck by the fact that the 7 of us were all women. We took the exact opposite tack as the women in your class. We realized really early on (after about the 2nd week of classes) that there was "safety in numbers" and that we might as well help each other out and talk about stuff as much as we could. We set up weekly meetings to discuss how we thought our classes were going and to help each other out and I know the profs were really surprised at how we bonded like that. I am replying to your post without having read everyone's comments about Claire yet, so I hope I'm not repeating something others have said! Just interesting how experiences can differ so wildly, huh? (NT) -- ErinD, 19:21:43 01/21/08 Mon
  • I am a long time lurker, and fan of the books. This topic is dear to my heart, so has brought me "out" so to speak. I think that this is the one part of the books that have left me feeling distraught. It is the fact that although Jamie was seen to have close friendships and bonds with men throughout the series, Claire always seemed to only have Jamie. Even in the 20th Century. I think that is what I hold against Jenny. The one woman who you would think would understand Claire, turns on her when Claire reappears in Voyager. I hope this discussion will reveal some moments when Claire bonded with women. But, my feeling is that they will be fleeting, and not the "brotherhood" kind of bond we are speaking of here. (NT) -- Lady Alice, 07:31:21 01/21/08 Mon
    • The intro to this topic was a joy to read - Thank you Jessie and Catherine! Your readings caused me to see Jenny in a dift perspective. Like Lady Alice I was very let down by Jenny in V. This time I noticed the mention Jenny makes of being afraid of Claire. The combination of the cozy group of women in the Lallybroch kitchen, also whispering about Claire, and Jenny's admitting her suspicions (we never knew who your people were, etc), highlighted for me that Claire is very 'other' in this time and place. Maybe Jenny couldn't sustain a true friendship with her because she sensed the huge differences between them? I'm trying to give Jenny a break! Seen in the light of the rereads, it is a little problematic that Geillis (who was very kind to Claire in the witches hole) and Jenny and Malva (lets not even go there!) betray Claire. Dramatic and good for the plot yes...Inside>>>> -- HollyC, 08:14:58 01/21/08 Mon
      • Holly, I try to give Jenny a break, too. I think that if she "betrayed" anyone, it was Jamie. Claire had been gone twenty years with many holes, as you say, in her story. Jamie, OTOH, has been there all along, hurting, working for the good of his family, living in a shell of himself, all of which Jenny is quite aware. She owed it to him to speak to him first about his "situation" and if he stalled or dismissed her concerns, she could have threatened to take action immediately. No doubt, he would have believed her capable. :-) (NT) -- KathleenM, 08:39:20 01/21/08 Mon
      • Holly, I think that Jenny felt some betrayal from Claire when she "left" after Culloden. I think Jenny is not very free with her friendships with women, but she opened herself to Claire when Jamie and Claire live at Lallybroch. Unfortunately Jamie couldn't tell Jenny where Claire had gone, so Jenny concluded that Claire left him behind. And then Jenny had Jamie back with her at home, which she hadn't had in a long time. (NT) -- LisaW, 08:54:54 01/21/08 Mon
      • You both bring up neat facets of this betrayal - no wonder that whisper from Jenny's daughter is a shocker! Here I was trying to rehab. my image of Jenny, and Kathleen now you've got me mad again *bg* Jenny DID betray Jamie bigtime! LadyAlice, I meant to say before I also wonder why the friendships are fleeting for Claire? After all, Jamie gets to have sustained ones. If only Geillis hadn't gone off the deep end. Sigh. (NT) -- HollyC, 11:27:02 01/21/08 Mon
  • Claire is a hard nut to crack, especially when it comes to her relationship with women. She’s had an unconventional childhood that deprived her of opportunities for female bonding, so her lack of sustained female friendships could be the legacy of her upbringing. But we could also argue that as a nurse in World War II, she would have been in the company of female peers nearly 24/7 for years at a time. The stress of war often generates deep attachments among those who share the experience, and I find it unusual that Claire never recalls a close female friend from her war years in any of the novels. It’s hard for me to imagine that Claire would have been such a loner that she wouldn’t have made friends with her fellow nurses, but as written, the Claire we get to know doesn’t need to draw any strength from those friendships, and I’ve often wondered why. (NT) -- JessieR, 08:09:34 01/21/08 Mon
    • I wondered the same thing - perhaps her upbringing did not allow her those pivotal tween and teenage girl relationships, where you usually hone your 'relating to other female in socially acceptable ways' skills. (NT) -- LissC, 09:13:58 01/21/08 Mon
  • Jane, I wasn't thinking you were against or insulting to Claire, et al! I like a good controversy, too. Reading the other comments, it seems we agree on some level that Claire doesn't make deep connections with women. Jenny's actions confused me initially but later I saw her as simply defending her family. She explained it well to Claire when confronted and Claire cannot really respond b/c she is very aware that she has never been totally honest with her "good-sister." I think women think they want honesty from one another but my own experience tells me we don't. We want support, we want acceptance, we want to laugh with someone, we want to talk but in the end, we choose only a few with whom we want true honesty. Women are wonderful, I love my sister, my daughters, I miss my mother incredibly BUT . . . we can hold grudges, be catty, competitive in the wrong areas and way too sensitive sometimes. I can see why Claire would steer clear when she doesn't fit in easily. (NT) -- KathleenM, 08:27:35 01/21/08 Mon
  • The lack of sister-sister relationships bothered me a bit, as DG herself has a sister, and seems to be pretty close with her, thus giving her ample life experience to draw from. The only sisters I can remember in the Books are Joan and Marsali - separated by circumstance, and Ute McGillvary's daughters, sort of non-entities, as far as the story goes. I myself have a dear sister and would like to have seen Diana bring some of those dynamics into the story. The other thing about Claire is that she really has only sustained two relationships well over the span of the stories - with Jamie and Bree. As practical as she is, it just seems like she refuses to make an effort otherwise. (NT) -- LissC, 09:17:16 01/21/08 Mon
    • I should clarify - she is practical in that she only expends effort to those relationships that are dearest to her heart. Is it her natural inclination and her doctor's training allowing her to stand back emotionally from most other people?? (NT) -- LissC, 09:18:36 01/21/08 Mon
      • Maybe because Claire lost her mom so young, she didn't have a female role model in her life to show how to nurture her female frienships. She could stand back emotionally, as you say Liss, from people to care for them, but she never opened emotionally to other women to be friends with them. (NT) -- LisaW, 09:29:15 01/21/08 Mon
        • That's an interesting observation. My parents divorced when I was 6 (due to my fahter's infidelity), and yet my closest friends are men. Do we learn friendships from parents or other people? Or is it something we find on our own? (NT) -- Rollaine, 09:33:57 01/21/08 Mon
    • Liss -- and everyone else (waves at all the people who've reposnded so far:THANK YOU!!!) Do you have any thoughts on the tthe "sisterhoods" of the convent? or of the various brothels? (NT) -- CatherineM., 09:25:37 01/21/08 Mon
      • Did you feel a sisterhood at the convent? Perhaps it was because Claire was close to "the BOSS" and the other sisters were in awe of her, but I never felt any of the sisters (besides Mother H) treated Claire with anything other than subservience. I did like the whores at the brothel and how they immediately took Claire under their wing. I also liked how Claire accepted them, tongue planted firmly in her cheek, but she seemed to really like them. As Jamie commented in ABOSAA, she might have "made a really good whore." (NT) -- Jane, 10:32:56 01/21/08 Mon
        • Jane, you're on to something with 'the boss' comment. Of all the women I saw Claire with in these rereads, she seemed the most relaxed with Mother H, a highly educated woman who describes herself as wanting to life a "useful life". Is she just not given the chance to meet other women like that in future books? Yes, she likes the whores,she likes & respects the hardworking women of Lallybroch & she seems to admire Marsali greatly as time goes on. Is she too much of a 'boss' herself to seek close friendship - and I don't mean that as an insult to you Claire!! (NT) -- HollyC, 11:08:33 01/21/08 Mon
          • Well, Claire seemed to really like Jenny Campbell and admired HER force of personality. Perhaps the women around Claire just didn't impress her because of the way that they were raised. Women were not encouraged to be independent movers and shakers. Claire doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for women who focus on things she feels are shallow (i.e.. Louise with her gowns, coo-coo clock, and monkey). I felt that Louise did do a lot to try to help Claire and didn't get a lot of gratitude or gain Claire's respect in return for her efforts. (NT) -- Jane, 10:08:27 01/22/08 Tue
      • Jane & HollyC—I agree with you. I don’t get a sense of sisterhood at the convent. The nuns themselves get short shrift because the focus is on M. Hildegarde, who is, I think, one of the few women in all the novels who is the intellectual equal of Claire. The bond between Claire and M. Hildegarde transcends gender because their professional commitment supercedes it, so they shine while the sisterhood itself is but a shadow in the background. There is a greater sense of sisterhood at the brothel, where we see how mutual loyalty among those women works to protect them as they ply their dangerous trade. But the one place where I find sisterhood most difficult to find is in the domestic setting, either at Lallybroch or Fraser’s Ridge. Female bonds get sundered in those places, which given the fact that hearth and home have traditionally been the locus of female power, seems all the more ironic. (NT) -- JessieR, 13:01:02 01/21/08 Mon
        • Good discussion! I didn't feel a sense of sisterhood at the convent, because it wasn't focused on as much as Claire and Mother H. I do think that Claire's lack of sister-like relationships is due in part to her level of intellect. She rarely meets anyone - male or female - who challenges her intellectually. Jamie, yes, Bree, yes, as her daughter, Frank, yes, but is constrained by their emotional desert of a marriage, Joe Abernathy, yes... But specifically women? Geillie, while an intellectual equal more or less, cannot be trusted. Jenny, after the L'heery incident in Voyager, and the estrangement from Jamie, also can't be trusted and is removed by distance. Who else matches her for intellectual ability. I again think that she is simply too practical to invest heavily in a relationship that is not on an equal footing. And those women she IS closest too - Marsali, Bree, Mrs. Bug, Lizzie - she is either older and mothering to them, or mothered by Mrs Bug, to Claire's dismay. (NT) -- LissC, 18:42:38 01/21/08 Mon
      • Thought provoking comments from you all. Is it possible that the class structure of the 18th C explains why we don't see sisterhoods? There's a sisterhood among the whores at Madame Jeanne's, but they are all equals. They were willing to "adopt" Claire because they thought she was one of them. The married women at Leoch seem to have a similiar set up and also included Claire, though a little hesitantly because of her foreigness. Maybe the reason Jenny doesn't have the same relationship with the women of Lallybroch is because she's the Laird's daughter/sister? (NT) -- Carol P, 19:45:05 01/22/08 Tue
  • In this way, I do relate to Claire. I do not form close bonds or deep connections with women, either, In fact, my closest friends, aside from my husband, are men. I kind of feel like an outsider when I am with a group of women. Not that anyone is bad, or says bad things to me, I just find it hard to relate. Remember in Voyager, when Claire was pushing the baby carriage and she somehow felt out of place, I totally related tot that>>> -- Rollaine, 09:25:47 01/21/08 Mon
    • I should say, that I do have a sister. And while I Iove her dearly and would be there for at the drop of a hat, we are not "buddies". You could not find 2 diametrically oppostie people. We differ in EVERYTHING-politics, religion, you name it. But, we know that if we are there for each other and we have been always. We jsut don't have that sisterly bond where we socialize or hang together. (NT) -- Rollaine, 09:31:15 01/21/08 Mon
    • I know what you mean--I truly think some women don't get along with other women for whatever reason. It's not always how they were raised (tho in Claire's case, it likely has something to do with it). It took a long time for me to relate to my female peers, and I still don't, entirely--I found a different set than had been available to me previously >>> -- devenhuis, 07:08:44 01/22/08 Tue
  • in general, i do believe it’s harder for women to create bonds with other women. i think it’s just the nature of things. men have that natural disposition to belong to a group, a team, an army, and to create long-term bonds between each other. in peace or war, they live in a way that allows them to strengthen that bond, in spite of all the competition within the group. it’s strange, somehow men are able to compete and develop bonds at the same time. as if they knew each other’s place in the structure of power and were able to respect each other, and even the attempts to change that structure of power are accepted as just another rule of the game. the best, the strongest, deserves to rule. even the relation with the enemy is such that they can come to a point of respecting their enemy, respecting in the nemesis the attributes they consider valuable in themselves. it seems to me that women can’t do that. (more in the reply) (NT) -- dea, 10:25:27 01/21/08 Mon
    • see inside -- dea, 10:27:00 01/21/08 Mon
      • Wow, dea, I feel the same as you do...maybe we were separated at birth!! As a scientist, I kind of look at this also from an evolutionary standpoint. Males will compete for females, but it is the FEMALE of the species who ultimately does the selecting. It is she who picks the strongest and fittest. Maybe there is just as fierce a competition among females, but somehow it is more subtle that makes bonding a bit more difficult. Maybe an evolutionary carry over! I do find any type of behavior fascinationg. Some here form strong bonds with women, while others find it difficult. I think there is one thing-we have all bonded here, no?! (NT) -- Rollaine, 15:00:21 01/21/08 Mon
    • I know this will sound sort of trivial, but I was watching the football games yesterday and when the games were over and the players were meeting each other in the middle of the field, I found it so interesting that to a player the men all hugged and congratulated each other. The game was over, the competion complete and they all came back together as friends. Women, I think, have a hard time letting go of actions, even if they are done in fun. Our emotions play such a strong role, that it can interfere with our relationships. (NT) -- LisaW, 10:38:27 01/21/08 Mon
    • Loved your thoughts and can totally relate (see my reply to Kathleen above). I also love watching the team mentality that men get, and am much happier myself when I am in that situation. It's why I never minded playing pick-up games of whatever sport with the guys. >> -- Natalie C., 14:02:15 01/21/08 Mon
  • See inside -- LadyKyla, 12:44:50 01/21/08 Mon
  • Just one comment re: Claire and female friendships. Claire was already somewhat disadvantaged here due to her unusual upbringing, her experience "thru the stones", etc. What really put paid to it, I think , was her medical training. When Claire went into medicine it was still unusual, and quite difficult, to be a woman doctor. And a surgeon - unheard of, largly speaking. She had no peers, and even if there had been another woman she could see as a potential friend, Frank made things difficult at home, at least initially. There was only school and Brianna. Medical training then was really rigorous and very unforgiving of personal needs, such as child care. There was just no time for friendship in her life, beyond the quick camaraderie of the OR or ward, and always with men, which reinforced her natural tendencies. (NT) -- jayne johnson, 14:48:26 01/21/08 Mon
  • We're off to yet another excellent start -- keep it coming! (NT) -- CatherineM, 14:59:31 01/21/08 Mon
  • Just a "wild" thought, but >>>>> -- Melva T, 15:05:24 01/21/08 Mon
    • Did they really say that? I wasn't paying attention! We were married by a justice of the peace, so I'm not sure if he said those exact words! I would, however, take it to mean forsake all others wiht respect to "romantic" realtionships. I don't read it as forsaking friendships. Interesting thought! (NT) -- Rollaine, 15:15:51 01/21/08 Mon
  • I think we need to separate Claire from the other women in the books. Claire doesn't have time to develop a sisterhood with any other women. I think she and Jenny were well on the way when Jamie and Claire first went to Lallybroch. But they weren't really there very long, the next thing Jenny knows Claire abandoned Jamie. But I think the desire is there in both Jenny and Claire to regain what they both recognized as love for each other. We'll see. One difference between men and women that I think DG captures is that men do not expect their friends to be everything they need because they are friends or brothers. Women seem to think if someone is a friend, they need to almost be mirror images and like/do/support everything one does. Maybe we are less successful at forming sisterhoods because we demand so much from our sisters that they can't measure up? (NT) -- Carol P, 18:41:12 01/21/08 Mon
    • Carol—yes, Claire is such an unusual woman that she does beg to be treated as an exception. Like LissC mentioned above, there are few women who are her intellectual peer, so the likelihood of her finding a smart and companionable woman are fairly low. That being said, it’s certainly within DG’s power to give her one; she doesn’t hesitate to put smart men in Claire’s way. But your statement about the difficulty of forming sisterhoods intrigues me. Several women today have commented upon the problems inherent in female groups, so I’m wondering if we should have begun this discussion by asking if sisterhood is something women value. What does it benefit women to bond together if they can’t find peace in each other’s company? (NT) -- JessieR, 19:25:50 01/21/08 Mon
    • Carol, your thoughts are very interesting. I do think women value friendship but we've all hit on that difficulty that can exist within women's groups. Men and women react and interpret social situations quite differently. I see this in my students even early on and always by middle school are the patterns of behavior set. Some girls, AKA tomboys, fit in better with boys for a bit, later they branch out. Boys who are perceived as less masculine by their peers have a harder time. Boys seem less likely to hold a grudge. Their feelings get hurt, they fight or insult one another, sometimes they punch it out but then they move on. Girls feel the hurt more personally and therefore, hold onto it longer. Only with maturity do women begin to overlook faults as easily as boys do early on. And yet. . .>>>> -- KathleenM, 20:19:51 01/21/08 Mon
      • KathleenM, I really like what you say inside about the completeness of J & C's relationship, and why she may not have the need for a 'best friend' so to speak. And that soulmate aspect of their relationship is part of their appeal to me. But how about everyone else? Where are their friends? Spawn of Satan is a very funny chapter - but very far from the idealized pioneer spirit of women sewing, cooking, exchanging childbith advice, etc together. Maybe DG has it right and I've spent too much time with (idealized?) children's historical fiction when the moms are so excited to have female company (from Little House on the Prairie to Hattie Big Sky) inside>>> -- HollyC, 13:56:52 01/22/08 Tue
        • HollyC--Great point about Bree! She doesn’t seem to have had many girlfriends in her 20th life, or at least not many that she recalls when she’s living in the 18thC. I find her lack of girlfriends more odd than Claire’s. But perhaps Marsali is her best friend at Fraser’s Ridge. They often share the burdens of young motherhood, and it’s Bree who tells Claire that Fergus beats Marsali. (NT) -- JessieR, 21:57:40 01/22/08 Tue
    • I had trouble thinking about "sisterhood" and "brotherhood" in the introduction, as they seem to represent different things. Claire, and many of the other women in the books, do have "brotherhoods" similiar to what we see in the men. They come together quite often to work cooperatively at a specific challenge, and then go on about their lives. For what we seem to be demanding of friendship, among the men maybe only Rupert/Dougal, Jamie/Ian and Jamie/Murtagh approach what we want to see among the women. I wonder if many of us are talking about two different things? (NT) -- Carol P, 12:10:30 01/22/08 Tue
      • Great question, Carol. I think we are indeed talking about two very different phenomena if we characterize "brotherhood" as coming together to achieve a particular goal and "sisterhood" as a long-term friendship that involves emotional intimacy. >>> going long>>> -- pamelalass, 18:04:37 01/22/08 Tue
        • You raise some great points, Pamela. (And thanks for helping define this topic) The more I think of all this, the more convinced I am that Claire doesn't have a sister because she just doesn't stay in one place long enough to develop the intimacy needed. The men friends you cite have all spent years together. going long>>>> -- Carol P, 20:42:16 01/22/08 Tue
        • WOW, I had to read your response twice. Once again, I am struck by the perception, insight, and intelligence of you and all the women who have posted here. I can't help but think that Claire and the rest of the women were short changed during that time period and how lucky we all are now. It was an exception if a woman was well educated in those times or had the leisure to form bonds outside of their own family circle. As boys and young men they would be schooled together or go off to University. As adults he men were often thrown together as soldiers, prisoners, or even simply working in the fields together. Lack of sisterhood back then was more likely a lack of opportunity than some personality flaw in the women in general. (NT) -- Jane, 20:46:22 01/22/08 Tue
          • Typo...not "he men" but the men..still, "he men" is quite a funny slip. (NT) -- Jane, 20:50:47 01/22/08 Tue
            • giggle, giggle. "he men" made perfect sense to me, Jane. I doubt that the non "he men" had any scintillating conversations or friends we'd want to overhear. You're right, women today are so lucky in many respects. Our world is certainly a bigger place than that of the 18th C women. And yet, a romantic part of me envies the certainty that those 18th C women have about their place in the scheme of things, certainty born of a lack of choice perhaps. (NT) -- Carol P, 05:38:18 01/23/08 Wed
          • Hi Jane, glad you think this discussion is fun! I am loving seeing what everyone has to say, and I am having to think verra hard to keep up! I agree completely that environment and context are big factors, not only in causing people to band together, but in shaping how the bonds are perceived. Men were in public situations that created all kinds of heroic and ceremonial associations around their bonding, and women in the domestic arena probably felt less of the energy and drama of "all for one, one for all," even if we now see their struggles and labors as heroic and bonding. Even as a feminist, I find I have to consciously examine what might be going on among the women in the domestic arena, and look for heroism, drama, etc., while I respond on a gut level to the stirring actions and interactions among the men in these books. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:49:50 01/23/08 Wed
            • But sticking a dirk in someone's wame is more immediately stirring than dosing a kid and waiting for him to poop because he swallowed a rock. (NT) -- Carol P, 11:33:43 01/23/08 Wed
              • OK ---- I'm a bit alte to the party and reading all the posts and just had to respond to this one ---- I am laughing so hard people inthe surrounding cubicles must be wondering just WHAT is so funny on the Internet today! How often do you come across a sentence with both "poop" & "wame"? ........... now, on to more reading .... (NT) -- navine, 12:21:55 01/23/08 Wed
              • Yup. It just is! (NT) -- pamelalass, 13:37:26 01/23/08 Wed
              • Although upon reflection I will say that Jamie gets quite stirred up watching Claire in action as a surgeon, and those are clearly moments of heroism and drama, even if they do involve messy bodily functions! The thing is, saving a life via surgery is something she does to someone, rather than with someone, and she does not have comrades. Also, it's completely unique in the Fraser's world, because she's a time traveler. Other women didn't have occasion for such public displays of healing prowess. (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:38:06 01/23/08 Wed
        • Pamela—Great post, and great question: who is judging the women in these novels more harshly—the readers or the author? Perhaps both. A great example to explore is Malva, and I found the treatment of her in ABOSAA raised all sorts of questions for me. Claire seeks out her company, befriends her, and runs interference for her with Tom Christie. In the “Bees & Switches” chapter, Claire even has a moment of female bonding with Malva as she watches Tom Christie take a switch to the girl, an observation that raises red flags for Claire and reminds her of when Jamie took a strap to her. Both women know what it’s like to receive a beating from a man. Plus, Claire and Malva share an interest in medicine, an interest that Claire is unable to share as deeply with her own daughter. If there was ever a potential for a sisterly bond, I think it was there with Claire and Malva. >>>going long>>> -- JessieR, 21:47:20 01/22/08 Tue
          • Once again you've got me thinking really hard, Jessie. With Malva, "Claire seeks out her company, befriends her, and runs interference ". Claire does exactly the same thing with Laoghaire when they first get to Leoch. going long >>>>> -- Carol P, 06:13:58 01/23/08 Wed
            • Carol—interesting point. While Malva may not have used a term like “abuse,” I can’t help but feel that she knew having sex with one’s brother was somehow wrong. When Malva stomps away from her father’s beating, I’ve often wondered if she was mad because Christie seemed bent on punishing only her. It was Allan he should have lit into, not Malva. But Christie is fixated on female impropriety rather than male perversion, especially given the history he has with his wife, so it’s Malva who gets the whipping. But Claire, a woman, intuitively senses that something is wrong with the “Christie ménage” when she witnesses the thrashing. At the sight of this, Claire suspects that Tom is the agent of perversion, and while she’s wrong about him, she’s right about the perversion. I don’t feel she acted on her instincts as perhaps only a woman like her could. Would Malva have opened up to Jamie about incest? I doubt it. (NT) -- JessieR, 06:38:33 01/23/08 Wed
            • Nah, Malva wouldn't have opened up to Jamie, but I'm not so sure she would have been honest with Claire either, no matter what Claire did or said. Malva may have felt she was being singled out unfairly, but she also may have felt she deserved the punishment. I wondered if there wasn't an element of "I've paid the piper, I can now do what I want to" in Malva's mind. Young girls today in unhappy homes sometimes turn to promiscuity to feel loved, maybe Malva isn't so different. Tom doesn't know what's going on so he has no reason to punish Allan. Incest is such a horrendous sin that Tom would never recognize it unless he caught them in the act. I can't think of anything Claire might/should have done here. Have you got possibilities in mind? (NT) -- Carol P, 07:06:24 01/23/08 Wed
              • I probably should take longer to think this through, but it occurs to me that as Malva's mentor, Claire is in a relationship that is more akin to Jamie's with Young Ian than to a contemporary notion of women friends or "soul sisters." But in spite of the difference in age, and Claire's role as mentor, I think there could have been a bond based on shared experiences as women. And it is hard to imagine Jamie staying so hands-off if he sensed something amiss with Young Ian that rose to the level of what Claire sensed about the Christie household. Claire sends Jamie to talk to Malva, an impersonal strategy Jamie would never employ, and one that doesn't seem to live up to the emotional intimacy she later claims to have felt was betrayed by Malva. "Brotherhood" of the kind we've been discussing means you've got someone's back, whether they are younger, older, of greater or lesser rank, etc. "Sisterhood" doesn't have to mean "sisterly." (NT) -- pamelalass, 09:01:55 01/23/08 Wed
                • I think it makes a difference that Jamie was "Himself." *Everybody* on the Ridge recognizes his authority. That being so, it might be that Malva would feel she could appeal to him for justice, so to speak, as she would see him as having the power to affect the dynamics of her household; something no one else could have done. At least, that's why I assumed that both Claire and Jamie thought it appropriate for him to talk to her. She wouldn't have felt Claire could do anything, and therefore probably wouldn't confide in her. (NT) -- maddiej, 13:10:00 01/23/08 Wed
                  • I agree, his role as laird certainly must have been a factor in their decision to proceed in this manner. But I still think Jamie wouldn't have let some other guy, no matter who was technically in charge, go check things out if one of his lads were potentially in trouble. He and Claire approach problems, and people, differently, and I'm not sure where I as a reader come down on the question of whether it's a man/woman sort of difference, or just these two individuals. I also wonder about the role of the author here -- is she "leading the witness," so to speak, by giving Jamie and Claire such different experiences of friendship and solidarity? And if so, where is she leading us? (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:00:59 01/23/08 Wed
          • I never viewed Claire and Malva's relationship and "sisterly". I thought Claire acted more motherly towards her and she was her mentor. "Sisters", IMHO, can open up to each other and speak of things openly and honeslty. I didn't get that from thier relationship. Claire was too much her senior to have a sisterly type bond. I do believe Malva HAD to know incest was wrong. This is a multi-cultural taboo that is pretty universal. More than likely, the last time incest was "acceptable" was Ancient Egpt where marrying siblings was common to keep royal bloodlines. Maybe it was a sick way of rebelling against her father's treatment? Her brother had to know, too and used her perhaps to get back at Tom, too?? I can't see Malva opening up to anyone about this for several reasons: the stigma of the behavior and consequences would be devastaing, and I believe Malva herself was just not mentally capable of making rational decisions. She was quite frightening in the end. (NT) -- Rollaine, 08:39:06 01/23/08 Wed
            • Hi Rollaine, I think we were pondering some of the same questions -- sorry I didn't see your post while it took me way too long to finish my thought. Interesting question about whether we have to be sisterly to have sisterhood! I definitely feel more sisterhood with women friends (of all ages) than I do with one of my sisters, especially when it comes to feeling understood, having people who "know where I'm coming from", etc. But we've always had a lot of sibling rivalry in my family, which raises another question -- what about how rivalry is handled in "brotherhoods" vs. "sisterhoods"? Could Claire have sensed on some strange unconscious level that Malva was going to be a rival? Is this why she kept her distance? As a reader I was frequently suspicious of Malva's overweening interest in Claire's activities. (NT) -- pamelalass, 09:36:38 01/23/08 Wed
              • This is an interesting point, pamela. I've not been able to keep up with all the discussion here, but it did occur to me that claire tries several times to be motherly/sisterly- once early on with Laoghaire and then with Marsali and both of those backfire because the girls want Claire's man. Now, with LIzzie, I see Bree as stepping in and doing her part to protect a "sister" in need and that was successful. I think it worked for Marsali too. But no matter what the issue, IMO, Claire can never have a true deep friendship with anyone because they don't even know who she really is! They no nothing of the true nature of her "other" marriage, she can't tell many stories about Bree's childhood- nothing. There's even a scene with marsali where claire laments that she can't share the spaghettie incident. She has to always be guarded and I think those who may wish to get close to her feel that- which is why I wish Jenny could be told! (NT) -- susiej, 11:51:18 01/23/08 Wed
                • That's a good point, Susie, that Claire can't ever be honest enough to have a deep friendship. Now I'm sad. I do hope she tells all to Jenny and Ian. (NT) -- Carol P, 12:08:30 01/23/08 Wed
          • Thanks for such insightful comments, Pamela and Rollaine. Thinking of the parallel with Jamie and Young Ian, Jamie would have asked Ian about any suspicions and then they would have chosen action. But the situation with Malva and Claire is more complicated. They don't have a deep relationship to draw on. And, other than gaping, bleeding wounds in front of her, Claire never offers opinions and advice unless she's asked. The closest she comes to giving unsoliticed advice is when she gives the facts of life to Mary Hawkins. I think this is a basic part of Claire's character, she doesn't feel compelled to preach, even if those around her need the preaching. But she could have gone into her mother-mode and tried to draw Malva out about what was going on in her life, so was it the lack of established intimacy with Malva that stopped her? Or unlike the Mary Hawkings situation, did Claire hold back because, if her suspicions were right, she couldn't think of a solution to offer Malva? (NT) -- Carol P, 12:02:48 01/23/08 Wed
            • Thanks, Carol. I know you're right that this has to do with Claire's personality, her sense of reserve and distance. But it's still interesting to me that she and the other women just don't have that gut, "got your back" instinct - - or if they do, they don't act on it with the same kind of immediacy that the men do. Women had to be more cautious than men in every way, when taking action of any kind in the public sphere. But as Donner noted, Claire was notably not cautious about speaking up, so I still think she could have done something more, I don't know, forceful and/or wisewoman--ish, than send Himself to check it out, the same way she would send him to deal with any other tenant issue. (NT) -- pamelalass, 13:47:16 01/23/08 Wed
              • Yea—I agree, Pamela. This was a missed opportunity on Claire’s part, as well as a missed opportunity for DG to illustrate a moment of female bonding. >>>inside>>> -- JessieR, 16:04:42 01/23/08 Wed
                • Good observation. Claire's reaction in dealing with Malva's beating in an objective way is interesting. She has absolutely no problem using certain 20th century medical practices. Yet, with the treatment of women, she remains fairly silent. You asked this question above about feminsim. In my post below, I thought it would be quite dangerous for Claire & Bree to start talking women's rights in the volatile 1770's (let's face, women only got the right to vote in this country less than 100 yrs ago). I'm thinking it would not be well received. But what about moral absolutes? I'm not religious, I'm an agnosotic. But I believe there are moral absolutes-and I think beating a person and leaving bruises and marks is one of those absolutes. This is not self-defense. This is the "I'm the man/father-I have the right"...nonsense, that's crap. At least she could have said to Jamie-no this is morally wrong and should not be acceptable. (NT) -- Rollaine, 18:25:01 01/23/08 Wed
                  • I mean no offense, but in fact, the notion of corporal punishment of children actually isn't a moral absolute; it's one of the cultural paradigms that shifts over time and between cultures. (Unlike murder and incest, which do seem to be universally viewed as immoral.) I *really* don't mean to be offensive, but, "That's not acceptable!" is such a very-late-20th-century response to something one personally disapproves of. Even in Claire's part of the 20th century, a parent's right to correct his/her children physically was taken for granted. Certainly it was in the 18th. Jamie, for one, doesn't see it as morally wrong, and he's been physically disciplined pretty frequently himself. He does explicitly make a distinction between corporal punishment (even to the point of bruises) and "beating" someone, and it's a real distinction, I think. (NT) -- maddiej, 13:30:52 01/24/08 Thu
                    • No offense taken, but I still respectfully disagree. The idea that its cultural, doesn't make it right. Slavery was justified by religion and practiced by many cultures, but it is morally wrong. The treatment of women in many cultures as second class (lack of education, voting rights, beating, the seling of girls inot prostitution) is also "justified" as cultural, but is morally wrong. For me, these are moral absolutes-they are wrong. It's not wrong to discipline one's children, but beating is beating. You may disagree, but it is for ME it is morally wrong-and something I see as a moral absolute. You may not-your beliefs differ from mine. Again, I think at the very least, Claire could have voiced her concerns-she has no problem speaking up about other things. It seemed that she was bothered by Malva's treatment. (NT) -- Rollaine, 16:10:41 01/24/08 Thu
                    • maddie—interesting post. But when does Claire support the corporal punishment of a woman or child? Though I don’t know if Claire sees her position as a moral absolute, the textual evidence suggests that she agrees with Rollaine: the practice is “not acceptable.” Plus, Jamie’s behavior is not always consistent with his statements about corporal punishment, which suggests that the cultural paradigms of the 18thC were more nuanced than we might think. (Wasn’t Bentham opposing corporal punishment in schools in the late 18thC?). In the end, the novels tell me that Claire and Jamie can take a beating far better than they can administer one to a child or a woman. >>going long>> -- JessieR, 18:24:33 01/24/08 Thu
                      • All I can say is...wow, JessieR! I'm impressed! I most certainly see these beatings (and, yes, to me these are beatings-not a little slap on the wrist or behind) as morally wrong. Look at the ramifications-what effect did this have on Malva (or anyone for that matter)? I have a hard time when injustice is claoked in culture. Becasue it is prevalent or accepted doesn't make it right. MaddieJ mentioned incest and murder as 2 pretty standard morally wrong absolutes (and yes, they are). And yet, incest was routinely practiced among the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt. Many cultures practiced human sacrifice. Isn't that pretty much culturally sanctioned murder?? Even today, there are parts of the world where "honor killing" is practiced. Yes, corporal punishment may have been "accepted" and sanctioned, but it most certainly doesn't make it right-at least IMHO. (NT) -- Rollaine, 18:46:17 01/24/08 Thu
                      • What a wonderful synopsis of this subject in the books, Jessie. Thinking about the different situations you mention, my first reaction was that maybe Jamie would behave pretty much the same way without Claire's influence. going long>>>> -- Carol P, 20:24:40 01/24/08 Thu
                      • Rollaine and Jessie--no problem with disagreeing. I don't happen to think corporal punishment is generally useful myself. Just pointing out *why* Claire probably wasn't storming down the hillside and informing Mr. Christie that his behavior wasn't acceptable. Regardless of her own feelings about corporal punishment, she is the product of a time when that *was* acceptable, and is in a time when it's even more so. (NT) -- maddiej, 02:16:48 01/25/08 Fri
                      • Oops, pushed Send too soon....meant to add that Claire doesn't just go away and ignore the situation. She does what she thinks is most likely to be effective, given what she knows of the Christies at this point. That Tom is a stubborn religious fundamentalist who thinks women are basically immoral *and* stupid, and that Malva is secretive about her homelife. So it's not likely that direct inquiry or interference by Claire will achieve anything, but Jamie might at least put the fear of Jamie (if not God) into Tom Christie and prevent injury to Malva. Claire may be opinionated and impulsive, but she is observant, and she isn't stupid. (NT) -- maddiej, 02:22:25 01/25/08 Fri
                • Yes, Jessie, I agree there are other possible scenarios that would have remained consistent with what we know of Claire, and I think her 20thc sensibility was causing her to sense something more awry than Malva receiving thrashings from her father. So my question about why we don't see her get more involved is less about the beating she observed and more about her suspicions that the beating, which I think took place outdoors where it could be witnessed, was a symptom of something much worse that could have been going on inside the Christie house. She only had a vague sense about this, but if it was just about corporal punishment I actually don't think she'd have sent Jamie, because she knows he holds the traditional 18th c view on this form of discipline. The way Claire's concerns are expressed, to me it seemed she suspected something was really wrong, so I was surprised that her intervention was so indirect, given her usual "damn the torpedos" approach. >> -- pamelalass, 17:24:38 01/24/08 Thu
                  • Light bulb went on, thanks for explaining this so well, Pamela. I think you're right that the problem wasn't the switching. I don't have my book handy and can't remember how long after this scene the stuff hit the fan. Is this another of those situations where things happen so quickly there's no time to stave off disaster? I'm still trying to think of anything Claire could have done besides talk to Malva, which I'm pretty convinced would have been a big waste of time. (NT) -- Carol P, 18:20:01 01/24/08 Thu
                  • Ahhh.."damn the torpedos" is the perfect way to describe Claire's approach to things! Agree with you here-I tried to kind of say this, but apparently not as well! (NT) -- Rollaine, 18:22:02 01/24/08 Thu
                  • Yea—Claire’s concern about Malva is not really about corporal punishment; she sees Malva as an adult rather than a child and worries that a grown man beating the naked bum of his grown daughter could be sexualizing the act: “”Perhaps he [meaning Tom] does…other things to her,’” Claire tells Jamie. I also agree with you that the lateral pass to Jamie is driven by the exigencies of the plot. In the “Woodears” chapter, not only does Malva get to be alone with Jamie, she also gets subtly demonized by the recurring trope of the snake. Malva will help bring ruin to the Eden that Jamie and Claire made on Fraser’s Ridge, and DG has to begin convincing the reader that Miss Christie is wicked enough to do so. (NT) -- JessieR, 18:36:47 01/24/08 Thu
                    • Ah, Jessie, you are such a marvelous teacher. I noticed the snake but didn't think beyond the fact. The scene is much richer if I think about Eden too. (NT) -- Carol P, 20:34:55 01/24/08 Thu
                    • I, too, never thought about the symbolism of the snake - thanks for the clarity! Great discussion, btw, wish I had had more time to participate.. (NT) -- LissC, 17:52:14 01/25/08 Fri
                  • It's true that Claire often *is* "damn the torpedos," yes. [s] However, at this point in the story, she's had several run-ins with Tom Christie, and knows just how stubborn he is, as well as just what his attitude toward women is. She'd know she couldn't get anywhere trying to prevent him doing what he thought was right (and his right). But he does owe Jamie his livelihood, as well as the general respect due to the local authority figure; Jamie *might* get somewhere. My impression is that Jamie wanted to know as much as he could before approaching Tom directly. And in fact, I don't think Claire does "send" him to talk to Malva; he runs across her by accident, but takes the opportunity to probe cautiously into her situation. (NT) -- maddiej, 02:13:09 01/25/08 Fri
                    • It's funny, I can't help agreeing with everything you've said, Maddie! Yet still I have this bee in my bonnet about Claire's modern sensibility and her suspicion that the punishment had a sexual component, or was evidence of something more sinister, and I find her strangely passive as the narrative plays out. I don't fault any author for making close calls when it comes to how to turn her plot, and my (completely personal) opinion is that Claire recedes here because there needs to be the Jamie/Malva interaction - - his time with the serpent in the garden. You're right, she doesn't send him, but I thought they did come to some sort of agreement that he would be the one to find out more. Which makes Claire's "intervention" feel even more casual, and her lack of urgency doesn't fit, for me, with the concern and suspicion she articulates. She doesn't seem to "have Malva's back" -- and for contrast, I love Cathy's idea about the Beardsley ghost wives! (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:30:19 01/25/08 Fri
  • In ABOSAA, Donner told C he should have realized she was a fellow TT because she was different from other women of that time - she wasn't afraid. She was always "different" and that difference was more noticed by women than men. Getting too close to other women was dangerous for C. Once nearly burned, twice shy. (NT) -- Ruthlass, 21:51:32 01/21/08 Mon
  • I don't understand how so many here can say they dislike the way Jenny treated Claire in Voyager! I mean, put yourself in Jenny's shoes. The brother she loves so dearly comes home from Culloden seriously wounded and without the woman he loves, and who professed to love him. Inside, I may go long lol -- KImL, 06:10:37 01/22/08 Tue
    • I think it was the way it was done. It was a bit underhanded and it did nothing but cause hurt to Claire, Loaghaire and her daughters. There were other ways she could have handled it, but it seemed like a sneaky way to do what she did. If she cared so much for her brother, he is once again with the woman he loves, then she sends for a woman he obviuosly does not love but is with out of obligation. Why not pull Jamie aside and say-Hey, what's the deal, what's going on? She sees her brother happy for the first time in years, then sends for Loaghaire and her daughters. Then they walk in on them in bed. Sorry, that;'s just not right. On one level, I can see why she did it, but I think it was not a nice thing to do. IMHO, it was not her place and she overstepped her bounds on this one. (NT) -- Rollaine, 06:43:17 01/22/08 Tue
      • I think Jenny had a right to do what she did. Jamie brings claire home to bed her in front of her children who only knows loaghaire as their aunt. And from the looks of things jamie has not told claire the truth in all this time or is going to , so jenny , in her own way makes him own up. Its her house , her kids, and jamies lies. He was the one in the wrong. I also think she was very afraid of losing him. I'm on jennys side on this one. (NT) -- dirbeauchamp, 07:53:07 01/22/08 Tue
        • Again, my only porblem is that is caused great hurt and embarrasment to Claire, Loaghaire and her children. While she may have been right, it is Jamie who should have born the brunt-not the women. I'm no fan of Loaghare, but I felt kind of bad for her. What a thing to see. I think it caused hurt to the wrong people-that's my main issue with what she did. Here again its that sisterhood thing :-). Jamie caused the deception y lying, but who does Jenny actually go after-Claire, and indirectly Loaghaire and her daughters. I think it was obvious Claire did not know about Loaghaire and vice-versa. Jenny was right-Jamie should have been honest-but I still disagree with her actions. (NT) -- Rollaine, 08:14:26 01/22/08 Tue
  • KImL said "one reason women bond differently than men is that we are so much more unforgiving. We tend to hold onto injustices longer than men" put my thoughts into words very well. I've seen men fight over an issue at work and then still be friends. Women tend to become enemies for life. Women usually either compete with or support each other. Men seem more capable of doing both. (NT) -- Ruthlass, 09:11:44 01/22/08 Tue
    • Interesting that you mention this. I read an article in the NY Times a few years back (I think it was from a book). It was basically about how men and women differ in how they fight. Men can fight, differ on things and get up and still be friends. The person who did the research found that women fought in a more underhanded way. Ruining reputations, being sneaky, spreading rumors and forming cliques to exlcude others. This is esp prevalent in school (but I do think it does carry over to adulthood-from my own personal experience). The author went on to say that what females do is much more damaging, because it can pyscholigically damage another person for a long time. I think she felt that men and women are socialzed differently-its acceptable for men to fight & be open about & physical about thier differences, while it is not acceptable for women. This was a few years back, so if anyone esle can clarify or add-that would be great! (NT) -- Rollaine, 10:39:13 01/22/08 Tue
      • I've never read the article, but it echoes what I was taught in my psychology of women class in college, as well as personal experience. Come in if interested >>> -- Natalie C., 12:46:22 01/22/08 Tue
      • There were cliques at Ardsmuir too until Jamie came and ended it- women don't just beat each other up when there's a problem- they use more subversive aggression. With men its more allowable to duke it out. And Jamie feels the need to lead- one could almost say its a power trip. Claire doesn't need that- she gets her power trip through surgery. (NT) -- susiej, 15:23:24 01/22/08 Tue
    • You've described something going on right here perfectly, I think. No offense to anyone, just a humble observation made with a smile but the majority of us here are women, and we get pissed off at Jenny for her actions, don't like Bree because she's a pain in the a@@ at first, love to hate Laoghaire (I know I do (BG)), think somewhat poorly of Lizzy if we are not outright scandalized, etc ,etc. In the same breath, there are legions here who adore both Dougal and Stephen Bonnet and we forgive men many of their sins and shortcomings. It's the women we tend to rag on (with the exception of BJR). What's with that? ;-) (NT) -- KathleenM, 12:48:52 01/22/08 Tue
      • LOL! I can only speak fo myself, but I always liked Bree. Se had to deal with some very strange things, and I think she did quite well. Jenny is OK, a bit too free with her hands when it ocmes to her brother :-)! I do think she over-steps her bounds too much. Loaghaire did try to have Claire killed indirectly. Can't blame us for not liking her! Me, personally, I find nothing appealing about Bonnet at all-he's a sleaze. Same goes for me with Dougal.>>> -- Rollaine, 13:20:14 01/22/08 Tue
        • Weeeel . . . talk about opening a can of worms! LOL, indeed. I don't have feelings towards LJG that lean either way particularly; he's quite interesting to me, an anomaly of sorts, an unexpected sort of mushroom, as DG calls them, in my reading. I think her writing is incredible enough to draw me in where I usually wouldn't go. I don't like Dougal; a self serving opportunist is the nicest thing I can call him and Bonnet is a sociopath. No feelings of sympathy there, I would have shot him dead in the forest. :-) I like Jenny and Bree even when they annoy me, I do love to hate Laoghaire even though I feel sorry for her. I just notice we are much harder on the women characters, and it makes me laugh b/c it mirrors real life IMO. (NT) -- KathleenM, 13:53:09 01/22/08 Tue
          • Didn't want to open the can LOL! But I do think its interesting. LJG is an interesting character-I'll give him that! I always wanted to put that question out there, without getting anyone angry! (NT) -- Rollaine, 14:50:08 01/22/08 Tue
            • I don't think that is a bad question. I think LJG is written to be a person we connect with, admire, understand his reasons, etc. That's why many of us forgive him. If I think a woman was written as sympathetic as John, we wouldn't feel the need to scratch her eyes out. We "know" John (We meaning the ones who love him), therefore we don't get angry. I think the same thing would happen to a woman if we really knew her and liked her. (NT) -- Conmama, 07:22:46 01/23/08 Wed
              • Ah, you are all much nicer than me! I'd scratch all their eyes out-male or female! Thena again, I am a very jealous person, much to my DH's amusement sometimes. But I do wonder if it was a woman, would she be as admired as LJG?? (NT) -- Rollaine, 08:43:01 01/23/08 Wed
                • See, I'm not talking about real life. In real life, anyone had better not step on my toes. I'm not nice at all in that regards. I'm just talking about a fictional woman that we might have grown to like in the story (similar to LJ) and how we would perceive her acting up now and again with Claire. This has nothing to do with my real life, whatsoever. Being a scorpio myself, I have a verra deadly sting when attacked, just like you. (NT) -- Conmama, 09:31:31 01/23/08 Wed
                  • I'm a Sagittarius. Not sure what I'm suppposed to be! Personally, I don't know if I would be accepting of a LJG female character. I guess its simply that I insert my own feelings and expereinces when I read. (NT) -- Rollaine, 10:19:46 01/23/08 Wed
        • Rollaine - you KNOW that I agree with you about John. But I've actually heard HERE that some would like to "try" with him. NOW _ THAT- makes me sick. Sorry. (NT) -- GwenM, 16:23:31 01/22/08 Tue
        • I'll weigh in --- I'm definitely NOT on the I-luv-LJG train. He's interesting enough (as all DG's characters are), but I only came to "appreciate" him in his encounters with Bree ..... and even those --- when he's charming and funny and all that --- have the "taint" of my it coming across as him being interested in her and liking her and all MOSTLY because she's not only Jami'es daughter, but LOOKS so much like him. Nope --- count me in as not liking LJG all that much.. (NT) -- navine, 12:30:11 01/23/08 Wed
      • That's a very good point Kathleen and I guess its just that those women who dig Dougal et al forgive them thier faults because they are hot for them. But they aren't letting the women off the hook so easy. (NT) -- susiej, 15:27:21 01/22/08 Tue
        • Weeeeel, maybe this explains the lack of "sisterhood" we set out to examine. They are as unforgiving with each other as we are with them. (NT) -- Ruthlass, 15:44:42 01/22/08 Tue
      • These observations are just too funny. The person I first got pissed at in O was Jamie and I darned near didn't finish the book, I was so mad/disappointed/disgusted with him. And he's still the one I get mad at the most, mainly because I think he should know better when he does those stupid things. I understand where Bree, Laoghaire, Jenny, Lizzie, Lord John et al. are coming from so I have a tendency to make excuses for them. *BG* (NT) -- Carol P, 20:55:55 01/22/08 Tue
        • And I get mad at and rag on people I love in real life too; loving and ragging are not mutually exclusive. *BEG* (NT) -- Carol P, 21:03:41 01/22/08 Tue
        • Carol—me, too! I’m so happy to learn that I’m not the only one who got disgusted with Jamie in Outlander. But I’m glad I persevered and finished the book. He still pisses me off, even more than Claire, but he always wins me over when all is said and done. (NT) -- JessieR, 21:32:56 01/22/08 Tue
          • The most uplifting moral of these stories is that, if even dyed-in-the-wool heroes can behave like jerks at times, there's hope for us all, we can all be better. more heroic people. (NT) -- Carol P, 06:30:45 01/23/08 Wed
        • that's so funny- i never get mad at Jamie because I just adore him. I can always come up with a very plausible defense! Seriously, he's never pissed me off except a little bit when he beat up Roger but that's because it was Roger! If it had been Bonnet, I'd be cheering him on. (NT) -- susiej, 11:40:30 01/23/08 Wed
  • OK- I'm going to throw this out- sorry if it is off topic, but in light of what we've been saying here, are we harder on our daughters than our sons? hold them to a higher standard? (NT) -- susiej, 11:54:41 01/23/08 Wed
    • I'll have to think on that...my kids are young. DD is 12, DS is 8. I think I'm harderon him because he is much lazier wehnis comes to schoolwork! SHe is more conscientious and can mostly work on her own. I have to practically sit on top of him to do his homework! (NT) -- Rollaine, 12:12:17 01/23/08 Wed
      • Gosh, Rollaine- we've got a lot in common- my dd is 12 next month, my ds just turned 9 and I'm a sagitarius and a bio major and though I like lord john, I too see some of his acts as less selfless than a lot of the other ladies do. I don't think I'm easier on ds but he is a lot more like me in many ways than my dd. sometimes, i think i was harder on her because she was the first not because of her sex. (NT) -- susiej, 12:25:49 01/23/08 Wed
  • Hello all -- I am coming up from exam hell and have enjoyed, as always, reading the thought-provoking posts and marveling at the breadth and depth of insights. I share the interest many of you have in the dynamics of female friendships in "real" life, and would like to say a few things about that perhaps later: right now, a question for you, even if it isn't from the passages we chose for the mini-read: a day or so after we posted the questions for the discussion, I woke out of a weird little dream, somehow thinking about the strange but undeniably intimate relationship between the spook Mary Ann and Fanny Beardsley, linked by their common experience of brutality at the hands of Mr. B. -- a powerful and protective sisterhood of sorts, since it reaches back from beyond the grave . . . what are your thoughts on THAT, sistahs? (NT) -- CatherineM., 19:03:19 01/24/08 Thu
    • I'm awed by your thinking of those two. Now that the goosebumps have subsided, I vote Mary Ann the sister of all sisters. She certainly embodies (can I use that word for a ghost?) the loyalty and protectiveness we seem to want in a sisterhood. (NT) -- Carol P, 20:53:02 01/24/08 Thu
  • When Roger was talking to Bree about starting a Masonic Lodge for Fraser's Ridge he mentions that the men have no way of bonding. He said that the women have common ground, that they "sew and spin and knit and quilt with the others, and if they privately think that you or your mother or Mrs. Bug are heretics damned to hell, or goddamned Whigs, or whatever, it seems to make no big difference. But not the men." (More inside) -- Jane, 06:16:29 01/25/08 Fri
    • Great points, Jane! Perhaps she did have closer bonds with the quilters, even if she herself was not much for needlework. What I think is interesting, then, is the question of why these female bonding times are explored to such a lesser degree than the male ones we've talked about so much? We are left to imagine afternoons spent sewing and gossiping, but we get plenty of male bonding throughout the novels, in spite of what Roger says are the challenges to unity of spirit among the Ridge men. As Carol so brilliantly pointed out, it's the appeal of blood-stirring moments involving dirks and wames! Male "brotherhoods" seem to be more interesting to both the author and her readers. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:54:47 01/25/08 Fri
      • Maybe we don't see so much of these things with the women in the books because we, the (female) readers, may already experience these routine events everyday. We know that the women are spending time together quilting, sewing, or cooking because this is what we do in our days, maybe not on an everyday basis. While these"chores" may seem mundane, you can't help but think that the women are having really in depth conversations, sharing secrets and private joys, just like we do with our girfriends over lunch, while the kids are at school. Sisterhood is experienced on a much quieter basis then brotherhood, which tends to be about physical experiences. Women often just talk with eachother to have that sisterhood. I hope this makes sense, kinda rambling. (NT) -- LisaW, 09:46:59 01/25/08 Fri
      • Whatever the women thought of Claire, it seems most called her to deliver their babies. But how many of those scenes do we want to read? Though I would be interested to know if C helped anyone besides Bree with birth control. I still think C held back a bit from other women out of fear of being discovered for what she was. They would not have been able to understand TT & would have thought her a witch. She's learned where that can lead. So she cannot really be herself with anyone other than Jamie, Bree, Roger & young Ian. (NT) -- Ruthlass, 09:50:55 01/25/08 Fri
      • I was thinking along the same lines as all of you today. DG's books are populated with strong intelligent women (whatever their century), but she simply is not writing Divine Secrets of the Fraser Sisterhood *g* And we did get to see Bree, Claire and Marsali take down that boar - even if we didn't get to see them talk about it later! I'm alittle more puzzled by the betrayal theme- but I suppose even there we have Dougal and The Bugs, not just women, as champion betrayers. (NT) -- HollyC, 13:21:21 01/25/08 Fri
        • I Love that "Divine Secrets of the Fraser Sisterhood" line! (NT) -- CatherineM., 18:37:54 01/28/08 Mon
      • I personally don't doubt that Diana herself thinks girlie bonding moments are for mortals like us. If you have ever seen an outline of one of her days, she never says called my girlfriends or lunched with so and so. It is usually Doug she meets for lunch if she mentions eating at all. Her life sounds pretty hectic, besides the many hours she spends on computer interactions in addition to actually setting down to writing, it sounds as if her family and home life (her animals, shopping, cooking, gardening and exercising) take all but a few precious hours that she seems to actually get to sleep. Personally I am glad I don't hold myself to such high standards, if I were to write a book and trust me I know I don't have the talent, mine would be much more chatty, a LOT less heroic, and a whole lotta BORING. (NT) -- Jane, 15:31:32 01/25/08 Fri
        • OMG! Did I just kill this conversation? Why isn't anyone posting anymore? If it is my fault I am SORRY! (NT) -- Jane, 18:13:54 01/27/08 Sun
          • No way, Jane! I look forward to all your comments! I guess we can’t psychoanalyze the author, but your post about DG makes sense to me. (NT) -- JessieR, 07:49:57 01/28/08 Mon
  • I was hoping we'd hear from Cathy this weekend. And I'd like to hear more opinions on the "Spawn of Satan" episode. Is it common for one disruptive person to break the cooperation and civility of the others in the group? Mrs. Chisolm is so overbearing that no one wants to be around her. Her children are such little brats that she gets no support or child care from the others. Do you suppose after Bree shifted everyone that the remaining women acted more like a sisterhood? I would have thought so, but Bree tells Roger in Ch 33 "Home For Christmas" that Mrs. Bug had lit into poor little Mrs. Aberfeldy for burning the biscuits and putting blueberries in them, for cying out loud. I can understand why the women all cramped up acted very unsisterly, as I would go beserk in a situation like that, no matter how nice everyone was. How did people live on top of each other and not commit murder and mayhem?? (NT) -- Carol P, 19:08:30 01/27/08 Sun
    • I think Cathy is buried beneath piles of exams. It’s the end of her term. But in the meantime--Good question, Carol. I’m not sure I have the answer, but my hunch is that underneath all the fighting was a turf battle over a woman’s domain. Bree may be the titular head of the Fraser house while Claire and Jamie are away, but Mrs. Bug runs the household. Mrs. Chisolm and Mrs. Abernathy disrupt the smooth operation she’s established with their inept housewifery and unruly children. Mrs. Bug is a tyrant and shows little compassion for the displaced wives, but I wonder how a man would feel is two men suddenly showed up in his workshop and started messing around with his stuff. He may not act petty and rude, but I bet he’d waste no time making clear who’s boss. In this case, Bree has to take charge because Mrs. Bug is ready to clock someone, but I do feel a wee bit of sympathy for Mrs. B. >>inside>> -- JessieR, 22:09:05 01/27/08 Sun
    • Thanks, Carol -- and thanks to all of you for the juicy bits (Hi Jane! Waving energetically! Oops -- just dropped a bundle of exams) that are keeping me afloat when I check in quickly daily. Off to the Baord today to re-mark all the failures -- one of my least favourite days of the year. (NT) -- CatherineM., 03:25:48 01/28/08 Mon
    • I often felt sorry for Mrs Bug. At one point her husband had been a tacksman for The Grant, she'd has some status, and maybe even servants of her own. There she was reduced to working for some relatively poor landowners far out in the wilderness. Even though she was treated with respect and kindness, even called Granny Bug, making her more part of the family, she must have felt pretty darn lowly. She worked pretty darn hard too, and maintained some pretty high standards, no wonder those kids drove her crazy. I find people who've never had kids of their own have very little sympathy for parents who aren't able to control their kids and she was no different. (NT) -- Jane, 06:32:27 01/28/08 Mon
      • I do think that once the Chisolms were gone things got more peaceful around the house. After all Mrs Bug seemed to get along well enough with Amy and her two boys once Lizzie was married and Amy came to the house to take her place. I'm pretty sure quiet little Mrs Aberfeldy was a lot more help. Mrs Chisolm needed to take a parenting class, poor thing, she must have been overwhelmed with all those kids and no concept how to manage them properly. (NT) -- Jane, 06:38:20 01/28/08 Mon
    • I knew you ladies would add depth to this episode. Jessie's comment about class makes sense. However, I doubt sisterhoods would be more class-dependent than brotherhoods. From the little history I know, both men and women knew their place and acted accordingly. Mrs. Chisolm ignored her place, but I imagine that sort of thing could have happened in men's groups too. Jane's adding the reaction of a non-parent touched a chord with me. It is hard to accept the little things kids just do if you don't know enough about children to know that sometimes they just do irritating or messy things because they're kids, no malevolence intended. (NT) -- Carol P, 09:36:56 01/28/08 Mon
      • Jane is spot on about people who do not have children. A friend told me about an episode in which her uncle had been very unreasonable & impatient. I commented that her aunt & uncle had no children. Children teach you to be more flexible. She laughed & said "but if they'd had children, theirs would have been perfect!" Mrs. Bug is the same. After all, she did believe she gave up children to save her husband's life. (NT) -- ruthlass, 21:55:43 01/28/08 Mon
        • Of course, anyone who has never had children of their own or at least taught or cared for children on a long term basis always think they could raise perfect children. Only people who have dealt with the day to day reality of those little individual personalities crying out to be themselves understand that what you may want in a child and what you get are completely different things. (NT) -- Jane, 06:12:44 01/29/08 Tue
      • Carol—I agree with you that class distinctions cut across gender lines. An infantry company in the military has all the esprit de corps of a brotherhood, but it’s explicitly hierarchical. Commanders, despite sharing the privation of combat with their men, are elevated both in class and responsibility because of the rigorously applied rules of chain of command. Jamie is an excellent example of this. He is the “commander” of his men at Ardsmuir and cares about them deeply, but the men accept that he is “above” them. Jamie knows this is necessary but misses the closeness (literal and physical) the men share. But an interesting twist on class-consciousness in a brotherhood is the example of Tom Christie. Christie was an educated Lowlander who felt aloof from the Highlanders with whom he was imprisoned. Though united with them in his Jacobite sympathy, he isolated himself because he felt they were somehow too crude to associate with, and he had a tough time accepting Jamie as his leader. (NT) -- JessieR, 07:20:14 01/29/08 Tue
        • Your remarks about Jamie and the Ardsmuir men made me think of the Parritch War on the Artemis. Claire was surprised the men didn't go to Jamie as the Lallybroch men would. Further the Lallybroch men wouldn't need to go to Jamie because he would already be aware of the problem. So was the hierarchy looser at Lallybroch or is there perhaps an additional element in clan/kin relationships? Thank you for once again doing a marvelous job here in framing a delightful and thought provoking discussion. I so enjoy hearing everyone's ideas on these in-depth topics. (NT) -- c, 11:06:37 01/29/08 Tue
          • Darned new keyboard, I hit the shift key rather than the enter key and it posted my entry before I was ready. The above post is me. (NT) -- Carol P, 11:09:07 01/29/08 Tue
          • Great connection to the parritch episode in Voyager, Carol! I also enjoyed this provocative discussion, too -- way to go, Broch Talkers; thanks for always making me have to think harder! (especially you, Carol!) (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:14:33 01/29/08 Tue
          • Carol--coming in late here (as usual). Your comment about the Parritch War on the Artemis sent me back to Voyager for a quick reread. What a great example! It proves that the ingredients of brotherhood can be elusive and are not naturally occurring whenever men form in groups. Jamie notes that he’s not the men’s laird--”’only the man who pays them.’” I like how DG makes a distinction here between being the boss and being the laird. I suspect that sharing a kinship with a leader would make a big difference, but I would also think that the Scots on board the Artemis, men who are culinary outcasts just like Jamie, Marsali, and Fergus are, would have banded together against Murphy. But it didn’t happen. Very interesting twist. Thanks also for all your comments during this round of Broch Talk. You always make me think carefully about what these books have to teach us. (NT) -- JessieR, 20:24:45 01/30/08 Wed
  
  
  

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• Debra Mc's Wee Trivia Game -- Debra Mc, 10:15:13 01/07/08 Mon
  The way this works: A question is posted about any of the first 6 books. If you are the first to answer it, you get to post the next question!
  
  Please respond using the "Post a Reply to This Message" versus replying to the message - this keeps the thread easy to read and not squeezed over to the right side of the board. Have fun!
  The first posts are an example of how it should look.
  
  Have fun!
  

  [ Edit | View ]
  
  Replies:

  • Question: How many children do Jenny and Ian have? (NT) -- Debra Mc, 10:15:58 01/07/08 Mon
  • Answer: Seven! Question: What is the name of Jamie's son's mother? (NT) -- Debra Mc, 10:16:49 01/07/08 Mon
    • Answer: Geneva Question: What was used to kill Gellis Duncan (NT) -- RisaB, 10:48:48 01/07/08 Mon
      • Let's try this again.. Answer: Geneva Dunsany Question: What was used to kill Gellis Duncan's 18th century husband? (NT) -- RisaB.. who hit the enter button by accident, 10:51:33 01/07/08 Mon
  • Arsenic. Question: which of Lord John's arms did Jamie break? (NT) -- Wee, 11:25:01 01/07/08 Mon
    • His right arm. Question: What was the name of Father Fogden's "murdered" sheep in Voyager? (NT) -- Jane, 14:55:35 01/07/08 Mon
  • Answer: Arabella Question: Oh, easy one; how does Jamie know Kenny Lindsay? (NT) -- KathleenM, 15:27:59 01/07/08 Mon
  • They knew each other from Ardsmuir. What was Roger's mother's name? (NT) -- ErinD, 16:23:00 01/07/08 Mon
  • Answer: Marjorie , Question: Where is Jamie's print shop located in Edinburgh? (NT) -- LisaW, 18:58:28 01/07/08 Mon
    • On Carfax Close. Question: What was the name of the young Captain of the Porpoise? (NT) -- Jane, 20:31:50 01/07/08 Mon
      • Captain Leonard. When did Jamie first call Claire "Sassenach"? (NT) -- LizT, 20:57:15 01/07/08 Mon
        • When they first arrive at Castle Leoch Jamie bids her farwell by calling her Mistress Sassenach. What was the name of Mr. Willoughby's pelican? (NT) -- MEL, 04:57:51 01/08/08 Tue
          • Actually, it was at Leoch, but it was later, on returning from the village when Jamie pulled the nail out of the boy's ear and then takes Claire back, sigh, what a sweetie. Willoughby's pelican's name was Ping An (peaceful one). What was the name of the Civilian Governor of Wentworth when Claire went to rescue Jamie in Outlander? (NT) -- Jane, 06:25:27 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer -- Mary, 06:24:35 01/08/08 Tue
    • Sorry Mary you beat me fair and square. I was just looking something up and didn't notice so I'll answer a puppy? (NT) -- Jane, 06:28:12 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Ping Na. What did Claire (and Dr. Fentiman) call Philip Wylie that made him furious? (NT) -- Mary, 06:26:59 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: A puppy New question: What was the name of the Civilian Governor of Wentworth when Claire went to rescue Jamie in Outlander? (NT) -- Jane, 06:35:35 01/08/08 Tue
    • Sir Fletcher Gordon! Question -- When does Claire first learn that Jocasta had children? (It's not when you think!) (NT) -- Merrymags, 08:50:26 01/08/08 Tue
      • Was it on their "honeymoon" when they were getting to know one another? Name the reverand who married Roger and Bree. (NT) -- MEL, 09:17:58 01/08/08 Tue
        • Good job, MEL! (NT) -- Merrymags, 10:00:31 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Rev. David Caldwell. What two modern-day cartoon characters have been alluded to/mentioned in the Books? (NT) -- ErinD, 09:28:53 01/08/08 Tue
  • Mickey Mouse and Yogi Bear. What was the name of Claire's helper on the plague ship? (NT) -- Mary, 09:54:52 01/08/08 Tue
    • Also Mutt and Jeff (the name Claire uses to describe the panel running the witch trial in Crainsmuir) (NT) -- LizT, 09:41:59 01/09/08 Wed
  • Elias Pound (not Ezra, as I always want to say). What was the name of the Indian baby Roger baptized? (NT) -- devenhuis, 10:23:28 01/08/08 Tue
    • Alexandra.... I think.*g* New Question - Who wrote the book that inspired kitty Adso's name? (NT) -- Donna Mc, 11:41:23 01/08/08 Tue
  • I just wanna say- you guys are good! I've known very few of these and the ones I did i was not sure enough to post and too lazy to go check, but I did look for the LJG and could not find it in DIA- it only said "wounded arm" and such. Where does it say? (NT) -- susiej, 11:21:56 01/08/08 Tue
    • Oh, and I have no clue about the baby name...which should be he next post. (NT) -- susiej, 11:23:06 01/08/08 Tue
    • Susie it is later in that scene where John "cradles his elbow in his left hand". He couldn't do THAT unless it was his right arm. (NT) -- Jane, 15:24:20 01/08/08 Tue
  • Adso of Melk I think. I'll post a question in case I'm right. Who baptized the children at the gathering? (NT) -- Mary, 16:18:54 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: An Austrian from the city of Melk. New Question: What was the type of horse Fergus first learns to ride? (NT) -- MEL, 16:31:05 01/08/08 Tue
    • Actually, I researched this years ago, because I've been to Melk in Austria and never heard of an Adso. I came to the conclusion that DG just used this name as an hommage to Umberto Eco and his book "The name of the rose". So, if you're very strict, the correct answer to this question would probably be Umberto Eco. *vbg* (you girls are good, I've forgotten nearly all of these things!) (NT) -- Pat, 04:12:13 01/09/08 Wed
      • Very good, Pat! Eco was the name I was looking for. I didn't say anything to the other answers because I didn't think I worded the question correctly. But you got it! (NT) -- Donna Mc, 04:58:37 01/09/08 Wed
  • Ooops, you beat me to it Mary. Answer to your question: Father Kenneth. I'll ask mine over. Type of horse Fergus first "learns" to ride. (NT) -- MEL, 16:37:44 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: A Percheron colt, Question: What was the name of the deisigner of Claire's dress she wore when she went back to Jamie after 20 years? (NT) -- LisaW, 18:14:00 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Jessica Gutenburg (sp?) What was the name of the young maid in the story Jamie told Bree when she was in labor? (NT) -- Jane, 18:59:58 01/08/08 Tue
    • Answer Maisie. Question- what was the name of the Hangman in Paris? (NT) -- susiej, 19:06:17 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Monsieur Forez. What is the name of Jared's special port made in Portugal? (NT) -- ErinD, 19:12:13 01/08/08 Tue
    • Answer: La belle Rouge? What was the name of the armorer who made Claire's ring from Jamie? (NT) -- Jane, 19:47:51 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Ewen, Question: What was the name of the horse that Brianna rode to Lallybroch on? (NT) -- LisaW, 21:46:07 01/08/08 Tue
  • Answer: Brutus. Question: Name of the lad who took on the job of healer at Ardsmuir. (NT) -- MEL, 02:27:23 01/09/08 Wed
  • Answer: Morrison Question: According to Mr. Willoughby how do you scare a phantom limb? (NT) -- Mary, 05:37:27 01/09/08 Wed
    • Answer: First he used accupressure to stop the pain, then had to "tell the arm not to come back". He then sent smoke to the ghost world to speak to the arm and spit on Innes' arm because the ghost was "afraid of spittle" Question: What did both Jame and Claire and Bree and Roger both drink to at Jocasta's wedding? One word answer "To ______" (NT) -- Jane, 06:44:36 01/09/08 Wed
      • Jamie and Roger each toasted "To Beauty" and Claire and Bree toasted "To Privacy." What is the Chapter title in which Jamie tells Roger, "You are alive." (NT) -- Merrymags, 08:32:45 01/09/08 Wed
  • Answer: "All is Well" Question: Claire examines Roger's eyes. What is her diagnosis? (NT) -- Mary, 09:18:25 01/09/08 Wed
    • He doesn't have depth-perception. How does Claire first encounter wee Adso. (NT) -- LizT, 09:45:02 01/09/08 Wed
      • Answer: After returning from the Gathering on Mt. Helicon, Claire was asleep and dreaming when wee Adso bit her. She at frist thought he was a rat. Question : What was the name of Gelis Duncan's present day husband, the one Roger went to see? (NT) -- Lisa L., 10:09:42 01/09/08 Wed
  • Answer: Greg Edgars.... I think! Question: What is the age difference between Roger and Bree? (NT) -- Donna Mc, 19:21:34 01/09/08 Wed
    • According to something I read on the compuserve site, 8 years. Where did Bree first meet Jamie? (NT) -- Terri C, 19:45:02 01/09/08 Wed
      • Answer: At a tavern located near a small sawmill just outside of Cross Creek. Question: What was the name of the slave woman accused of murder that Jamie and Claire saved by taking her to live with the Indians? (NT) -- Jane, 06:14:22 01/10/08 Thu
  • Answer: Pollyanne Question: What was Manfred"s girlfriend's name from Hillsboro that died? (NT) -- Mary, 07:30:42 01/10/08 Thu
  • Answer: Myra Question: Who was Arch Bug a tacksman for when he took the gold on his behalf? (NT) -- LisaW, 08:34:17 01/10/08 Thu
  • Answer: Malcolm Grant Question: What gem did Roger use to go through the stones the first time? (NT) -- Mary, 08:57:51 01/10/08 Thu
    • Garnets from his mother's brooch. QUESTION: Who were the guests at dinner the evening that Mary Hawkins was raped? (NT) -- Merrymags, 09:13:43 01/10/08 Thu
      • You're right he attempted to go with his mom's brooch ended up using Fiona's engagement ring. His first attempt he was thinking of his dad. (NT) -- Mary, 10:33:04 01/10/08 Thu
  • Answer: The Duke of Sandringham, Louise and Jules de la Tour, The Comte St. Germain, General d'Arbanville and Silas Hawkins. Question: What is young Jamie's wife's name? (NT) -- Mary, 10:47:12 01/10/08 Thu
    • Is nobody answering because you think it is a trick question? Maybe, so I will say, perhaps Claire? If I am correct, the next question is: What was Claire's father's name? (NT) -- Jane, 20:20:14 01/10/08 Thu
      • Oooppss, I meant to ANSWER: Joan...sorry. If I am correct, the next question is: What was Claire's father's name? (NT) -- Jane, 20:25:05 01/10/08 Thu
  • Answer: Henry Montmorency Beauchamp Question: What type of dog was Rollo's mother? (NT) -- Mary, 05:19:31 01/11/08 Fri
    • an Irish wolfhound. Q: what was the 1st thing Claire looked at with her microscope? (NT) -- devenhuis, 06:58:52 01/11/08 Fri
      • Jamie's sperm? No question as my books are still packed away. (NT) -- LadyDuBois, 07:03:14 01/11/08 Fri
        • I'll ask a question for you, my Lady DuBois.......QUESTION: what two items did Jenny pick out of Jamie's hair in preparation of meeting his tenants? (NT) -- Merrymags, 12:38:49 01/11/08 Fri
  • Answer: an oak leaf and a cocklebur Question: What did Claire name the horse she rode to the Mueller's place to deliver the baby? (NT) -- Mary, 14:40:30 01/11/08 Fri
    • Answer: Claire named him Judas AFTER her threw her off..till then he was nameless because Jamie didn't like the name he came with Question: What was the name Bree's friend in Boston who found Roger so "groovy"? (NT) -- Jane, 15:21:49 01/11/08 Fri
      • Gail. Question: What was the name of the horse Herman Husband gave to J? (It had a real name & a nick name given by his wife.) (NT) -- Donna Mc, 07:30:52 01/12/08 Sat
        • Answer to Donna's question: Jerusha; his wife called her Mistress Piggy because she has a great appetite. Question: Who had Claire been visiting when she got lost in the woods due to the sudden storm (and found the opal and skull)? (NT) -- Terri C, 08:19:23 01/12/08 Sat
      • Answer: Gayle. Question: Where is Brianna's birthmark - and what is its shape- that Jamie kisses in his dream before meeting her? (NT) -- Terri C, 07:34:05 01/12/08 Sat
        • Donna beat me fair and square by a few minuties - go with her. Thanks! (NT) -- Terri C, 07:35:42 01/12/08 Sat
          • Sorry! I messed up the order here - didn't mean to; just answered Donna's question so we could keep moving....My apologies!!!! (NT) -- Terri C, 08:26:45 01/12/08 Sat
        • Answers: Claire had been visiting the Muellers delivering Petronella's (sp?) baby. Answer 2: Bree's birthmark was shaped like a diamond Question: Who gave Claire the piece of amber with the dragonfly inside? (NT) -- Jane, 20:07:27 01/12/08 Sat
          • Yikes, the birthmark was behind her ear. Question: Who gave Claire the piece of amber with the dragonfly inside? (NT) -- Jane, 06:49:14 01/13/08 Sun
  • Answer: Hugh Munro Question: Who was born with a cleft palate and had it repaired? (NT) -- Mary, 07:33:01 01/13/08 Sun
    • Duncan Innes. What was the Celtic name Ian used to refer to his daughter? (NT) -- LizT, 08:58:53 01/13/08 Sun
  • Answer: Iseabail Question: Whatdid Ian use as his talisman when they were searching for Brianna after Bonnet kidnapped her? (NT) -- Mary, 09:58:30 01/13/08 Sun
    • Forbes ear. Question: What is the phrase for what happened to Duncan's aunt when she refused to denounce her religious views? (NT) -- susiej, 12:38:51 01/13/08 Sun
      • is this too obscure? I'll give you a hint- he tells this story to Roger and whenever I take my puppy out with me while I work in the front yard. I think of it- is that hosed or what? (NT) -- susiej, 18:49:37 01/13/08 Sun
      • Answer: Stakit to Droon, tied to a stake to drown. Question: What was the name of Father Fogden's woman/Mamacita's daughter? (NT) -- Jane, 21:19:13 01/13/08 Sun
        • Answer: Ermengildia (I know I'm spelling that one wrong). Question: Name of the wife of the overseer of Jared's plantation in Jamacia. (NT) -- MEL, 05:16:31 01/14/08 Mon
  • Answer: Rosie MacIver Question: What did Duncan tell Roger he was going to give Jocasta for a wedding present? (NT) -- Mary, 06:18:55 01/14/08 Mon
    • A: a velvet pillow stuffed with lavender to ease headaches. Q: what color dress did Bree wear to Jocasta's wedding? (NT) -- devenhuis, 07:18:20 01/14/08 Mon
      • ..."brilliant in blue wool the color of the spring sky..." QUESTION: Who held Jamie's hands during the "basting" of his leg? (NT) -- Merrymags, 10:31:33 01/14/08 Mon
  • Answer: Murdo Lindsay and Roger Question: What was Isaih Mortons girlfriend's name (not his wife )? (NT) -- Mary, 17:33:05 01/14/08 Mon
    • Answer: Alicia Brown. Question: What did William Ransome send Jamie from London? (NT) -- Terri C, 20:35:33 01/14/08 Mon
      • An astrolabe. QUESTION: What year was Frank Randall born? (NT) -- Merrymags, 23:12:00 01/14/08 Mon
        • I'm stumped. I can't even think where you might have found the date. I can't find it in the Companion, or Outlander, or Voyager. I usually don't answer if I have to look something up, but this one bugged me, so I tried and failed. Can you give us a hint, like the name of the book to look in? (NT) -- Jane, 15:54:25 01/15/08 Tue
          • Jane somewhere it mentions how much older he is then Claire, but I'm not sure which book, maybe O. (NT) -- LisaW, 17:40:54 01/15/08 Tue
            • The idea was to figure it out based on what we've read from Outlander..... of course, I was waiting for some other dedicated soul to actually do the math. (NT) -- Merrymags, 18:55:15 01/15/08 Tue
              • Sorry Merrymags, I hope I didn't ruin your question, Jane just seemed like she had spent alot of time looking. (sheepishly looking over my shoulder) (NT) -- LisaW, 19:22:24 01/15/08 Tue
                • Hey, Friend, no, you didn't ruin the question. In fact, I feel rather ashamed of myself for asking the question as I did and that Jane would spend so much time on it. Maybe I'll go ahead and answer it myself just to get it over with. Of course, that means I have to figure it out! (NT) -- Merrymags, 21:17:05 01/15/08 Tue
          • Jane, if we ever have the opportunity to meet, I'll take you to lunch or dinner to recompense you for the time you've spent searching for the answer. I promise. (NT) -- Merrymags, 18:58:14 01/15/08 Tue
            • Hee hee Merrymags, it is NOT your fault that I am anal. I would imagine it's a birth defect. I get a kick out of looking at the questions and saying "I know that". When I don't know, well..I have to find out. Should we ever meet we'll both go out for a nice dinner on me..I always love an opportunity to get away from the family and work obligations and chat with anyone as obsessed as me. Makes me feel a little less odd. (NT) -- Jane, 06:22:40 01/16/08 Wed
              • BTW, I just met Lisa W (and about a dozen other Northern California hosers) in person last Saturday. I've been meeting on and off with this group for 3 years now. In light of the new Broch Talk discussion above am thinking about the sisterhood we all share here, the what others might consider un-natural obsession we all have with these books. I just wanted to let others know that it is fun to meet with fellow hosers if you can and worth the time to create the opportunity for yourself. (NT) -- Jane, 06:35:12 01/16/08 Wed
                • Jane, your obsession is my obsession! Though I believe you're more willing to search for the answers. >>>>>>> -- Merrymags, 08:32:55 01/16/08 Wed
                  • Merrymags come inside please -- Jane, 16:26:32 01/16/08 Wed
                    • Jane, come inside>>>>>>> -- Merrymags, 07:34:22 01/17/08 Thu
                      • Merrymags inside again last time I promise: -- Jane, 19:53:19 01/17/08 Thu
                  • Jane, Merrymags and Jessie - what a marvelous collision of ideas going on here! I share your sense of this place as a community of women - - a sisterhood - - and I am also equally intrigued by the powerful nature of our obsession, not only with the Books that brought us here, but with talking to each other via posts and replies which, if you are like me and tend to post in hectic spurts of overly long comments, are sort of like blogging. I do think there is something going on that merits serious study -- the "hosed phenomenon" in both its guises (addiction to the novels of Diana Gabaldon and addiction to the LOL boards!). And it is fascinating to me how many of us had the same kind of intense reader response to Jane Eyre! Other than JE, and GWTW, both of which I read first at age 13, I have not had another similarly intense and overwhelming reaction to a book until I read Outlander (at age 42!). The good news is, I found you Sisters of the Book! (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:44:15 01/17/08 Thu
                • Oh, Jane—I’m delighted that you made a connection to the new Broch Talk topic and the sisterhood we share on this forum. Cathy and I wanted to incorporate this idea in the prompt, but we couldn’t find a good way to make it fit! But I do agree with you—there is a sisterhood here in the best of senses. The Kirk and Polls & Survey pages alone provide ample evidence that women can band together for a common cause, usually to help one another even if they’ve never met. Plus, the honor with which we all abide by the rules and treat each other with respect has endured for over ten years now. The common bond we share may begin with DG’s books and our curious addiction to them, but it doesn’t stop there. It expands and spreads as we develop friendships both in person and online. Perhaps we should dub this unique sense of comradeship a “Lallyhood!” (NT) -- JessieR, a fellow Jane Eyre addict, 15:09:59 01/17/08 Thu
                  • Hi Jessie, you (and Cathy) have done it again! I couldn't wait till the discussion is open to tell you how much I appreciate the thought, the time, the effort, you both put into making these amazing launching points for discussions for all of us. I doubt any forum is as lucky as ours to have such great minds working overtime on our behalf. THANK YOU BOTH! (NT) -- Jane, 19:44:54 01/17/08 Thu
                    • Am I seeing things? Is there really going to be a Jane Eyre discussion? Please keep me informed of any developments. (NT) -- Merrymags, 20:49:38 01/17/08 Thu
                      • I was talking about the sisterhood discussion above but I HAVE heard that Susie is heading up a discussion for Jane Eyre on Shamrocks and Stones. (NT) -- Jane, 21:09:20 01/17/08 Thu
                        • Thanks, Jane. I realized that after I posted my comment, I missed the gist of what was said because I skimmed through -- I was so excited to see other devotees of Jane Eyre that I lost control of myself! Oh, Jane -- we have soooooo much to chat about. I'll get back with you in another venue. (NT) -- Merrymags, 08:52:25 01/18/08 Fri
  • The game has ended. Thanks for playing! (NT) -- Debra Mc, 11:09:51 01/16/08 Wed
    • Debra, thanks for the fun idea. I was trying to explain this "contest" to DH last Saturday and he just patted my leg as if to say "uh, huh. whatever." Iove it that we all have each other to help us feel that this addiction is noral. I loved this game and had fun playing it. (NT) -- Terri C, 19:39:39 01/17/08 Thu
      • This was great fun. Thank you Debra. I'm just a lurker but couldn't resist. I had a great time. (NT) -- Mary, 05:20:21 01/18/08 Fri
        • This was as fun as watching Jeopardy! I felt smart when I knew the answer & learned something when I didn't. Thanks, Debra Mac! (NT) -- Ruthlass, 19:48:15 01/19/08 Sat
  
  
  

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• WELCOME to the DECEMBER POLL -- Pollskeeters, 08:12:53 12/08/07 Sat
  We all know that Roger & Bree return at the end of ABOSAA. If you were in thier place, for your first holiday season "back", what would you give your significant other, esp. since many "luxury" items were hard to come by. Let's not be practical...no washing machines & dryers!!!
  
  A. Some sort of meaningful jewelry-perhaps a wedding band that you may not have had
  B. A special book
  C. Portrait of loved ones left behind
  D. A trip to where your may have "been"
  E. Other
  
  Once again, please use the letter on the outside of your post so it is easy for us to tally! Have fun! HAPPY HOLDAYS and the poll will close in 7 days.
  

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  Replies:

  • C. I hope that Bree painted portraits or at least miniatures of herself, Roger and Jem to leave with Claire and Jamie. At the same time, she would have painted portraits or maybe a group portrait of the Frazer/ MacKensie clan once she got back to the future. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 08:41:59 12/08/07 Sat
  • A., a wedding band for my husband. But, if I were a man, I'd choose E., "other," and buy my wife some sexy lingerie. (NT) -- shy gal, 08:43:02 12/08/07 Sat
  • C, I think, would be most meaningful for a holiday gift. I'd do A for an anniversary and D for some other occasion (like a summer or winter holiday)... (NT) -- LindaT, 09:05:33 12/08/07 Sat
  • C. A portrait would look wonderful hanging next to the other portraits that Ellen painted, at Lallybroch. (NT) -- LisaW, 09:16:04 12/08/07 Sat
  • I'm thinking B - a book could contain sketches and written memories with room for more to be added. (NT) -- Mairghread, 09:20:15 12/08/07 Sat
  • B) Book is always a good choice (NT) -- Margit, 10:23:36 12/08/07 Sat
  • C Definetly. (NT) -- SheltieLass, 11:08:19 12/08/07 Sat
  • I'm going with C too (NT) -- Clara F, 11:52:09 12/08/07 Sat
  • A, a wedding band is my choise. I think Roger had to endure much and not being able to get a decent ring to Bree must have been difficult to stand. He's not a material man, but I guess he wants to give Bree a beautiful ring. (NT) -- Helka, 12:17:27 12/08/07 Sat
  • D. I would want to see how the place I was before has changed and if there are any remnants of our time there. I would assume that since Bree has painting talent that she would already have painted portraits for all as a reminder anyway. (NT) -- SandyH, 14:53:20 12/08/07 Sat
  • D. and I would like DG to write that one (NT) -- AnnJ, 15:42:36 12/08/07 Sat
  • A. Wedding band. I'm a sentimental sort of gal and would want my husband to wear one! :) (NT) -- Natalie C., 18:49:56 12/08/07 Sat
  • D. To dig up a time capsule we buried (with portraits in it) (NT) -- Margaret, 02:34:01 12/09/07 Sun
  • A. Roger wanted from the first to give Bree a real wedding band from him If I were he, it would be a copy of Claire's silver ring in gold, complete with the inscription inside. Bree might want to do the same for Roger, not to mark him, but as a constant reminder of the value of timeless true love. (NT) -- Jane, 06:19:04 12/09/07 Sun
  • E. Bree's mustang out of storage! For Bree to Roger, movie tickets for him and Mej to see a good dinosaur flick. (NT) -- LadyBelle, 06:39:06 12/09/07 Sun
  • C...Portraits of loved ones would mean the most. (NT) -- JenK, 10:00:31 12/09/07 Sun
  • A. If I were Bree, I would want a nice band, and maybe a diamond. And married to Roger, I darn sure would want him to have a ring. After all they've been through they deserve something special. (NT) -- jayne johnson, 11:57:13 12/09/07 Sun
  • C if I were Bree I would want my children to grow up knowing what their grandparents looked like, and I would want to see their faces everyday. If I were Roger A for a wedding ring for bree. (NT) -- dirbeauchamp, 15:20:46 12/09/07 Sun
  • D -- I'd really want a trip back to where they came from. But, now that I think on it .... just what did the area they *did* return to (out of the stones) look like? In the 20th century, is it the food court of a shopping mall? They were in the States before they eventually went to England .... so perhaps they already checked out where they'd been. So, maybe I need to chenge my ansser to "C"! At any rate -- I ditto the hope that we get the story of what happened immediately after they got back tot he future and a story on looking for their past. (NT) -- navine, 16:55:28 12/09/07 Sun
  • C- It was tough to choose between that or D but I read the other responses and agree that Jem and Mandy have portraits of everyone they loved on the ridge..I am doing a reread of ABOSAA right now and am near the end..Gosh I cried the first time when Bree read the opening of the letter from her Da *sigh* (NT) -- persianquinn, 17:14:53 12/09/07 Sun
  • C. Portraits to be hung in the hallway so they would always be reminded and the kids would never forget. (NT) -- Niseold, 17:21:32 12/09/07 Sun
  • B. As an academician and a college grad, they must have missed printed books terribly. I think that it would be a meaningful gift that would be exciting, and not as heart-wrenching as pictures. (NT) -- LissC, 17:45:46 12/09/07 Sun
  • C. I'm a scrapbooker and photographs are my treasures. I'd have to go with some type of pictures/portraits of family (NT) -- MEL, 03:42:43 12/10/07 Mon
  • I think I would choose E. While all options would be wondeful, I think I would be trying to find some kind of antique from the 1700's, like maybe a spinning wheel or something. It would be a heart-rending gift to that would allow me to remember the way it was, as compared to the way it is. (NT) -- Kim L, 04:46:09 12/10/07 Mon
  • C &E. If I were Bree, I'd paint portraits as a gift to myself while my memory was fresh. For Roger I'd buy him a bible w/ a special dedication inside.But for birthdays that first year back... a no-tell motel weekend w/ hot tub! (NT) -- AngieLass, 10:18:49 12/10/07 Mon
  • This one was really hard! But I'm going to go for E- being the practical person that I am and remembering the things Bree and Roger missed I'd say, a pound of Hershey's chocolate bars, a case of Coca Cola, and a 12 pack of toilet paper! (NT) -- susiej, 15:41:13 12/10/07 Mon
    • That is so funny, Bree probably would love all of those. (NT) -- LisaW, 18:50:51 12/12/07 Wed
  • C. I think it would be nice for Bree to capture the faces of some of the people at the Ridge for Roger and Jem. It had to be really hard on little Jem to leave behind all his friends; it would be nice for him to have a sketch book filled with faces from his childhood. I also think Roger would appreciate sketches of some of his favorite people from the Ridge; maybe even a little drawing of their cabin too. I think a nice big portrait of Claire and Jamie would be a must have. Mandy needs to be able to see what her grandparents look like. (NT) -- RisaB, 05:33:54 12/11/07 Tue
  • D (NT) -- stillcleaning, 17:02:45 12/11/07 Tue
  • E. Antiques, maybe something they had actually used on the Ridge. Or, early versions of one of Bree's inventions. (NT) -- LadyGrace, 07:06:09 12/13/07 Thu
  • It's C for me. Protraits of those left behind would be perfect as well as a constant reminder of love reaching across the years. (NT) -- Terri C, 06:21:48 12/15/07 Sat
  • C. Portraits are priceless! (NT) -- Lady Cid, 10:45:42 12/16/07 Sun
  • Probably C from Brianna to Roger and A from both of them to the other. (NT) -- LizT (*decisions, decisions*), 11:57:07 12/16/07 Sun
  • C - to remind Jemmy and show Amanda (NT) -- Bedelia, 12:22:40 12/16/07 Sun
  • D. I dont think I could resist a trip back to "Fraser's Ridge", even though it would be heartbreaking too! (NT) -- JulieW, 12:36:20 12/16/07 Sun
  • B. I would try to find a copy of one of the books that Jamie had in his library. (NT) -- Lady Beth, 13:26:08 12/16/07 Sun
  • D. I simply would HAVE TO see those places (NT) -- Barb J, 15:01:23 12/16/07 Sun
  • D (C). On my Outlander Tour! Okay, that was a cheesey plug. C. Portraits. (NT) -- JudyL, 06:09:53 12/17/07 Mon
  • E. One scene popped into my mind when I read this in which Roger brought Bree and Jem oranges back from his travels and Bree was ecstatic about it. Now I know that these are not exactly a luxury item but I would have to give the gift of an orange as a reminder of how lucky we are to have easy access to such things in our time. I could be tempted to give a Terry's chocolate orange instead though, as to me Christmas isn't the same without one of those in my stocking!!! Yum :) (NT) -- alison, 09:28:41 12/17/07 Mon
    • Alison what a great idea! My Mom grew up in the south and for Christmas she always got oranges and peppermint sticks. What a sweet memory. She grew up during the Depression, and that's what you got if your family could afford it. How nice of you to mention oranges! (NT) -- JudyL, 15:54:53 12/17/07 Mon
      • Yep, we always had a Tangerine in the toe of our stocking- and some nuts- almonds, filberts, etc. I was born in Texas but both my parents were from Indiana. (NT) -- susiej, 06:37:09 12/18/07 Tue
  • Oh, I just had another thought but its still E- Tickets to Disneyland to tell Mickey hello from Jamie! (Sob) (NT) -- susiej, 14:46:26 12/17/07 Mon
    • Aww, that's cool! (NT) -- Rollaine, 17:17:17 12/17/07 Mon
  • D. Maybe just my love of traveling, but I would want to visit everywhere I'd been, and I suspect that's part of the reason they wind up at Lallybroch anyway! (NT) -- Cindy G, 15:54:44 12/17/07 Mon
  • D) A trip back to the ridge and a little bit of research in the local library to see if there was any mention of Claire or Jamie as settlers to the area. (NT) -- Lady Lukkarinen, 09:35:50 12/18/07 Tue
  • E. Roger gave Bree art supplies & she gave him a musical instrument. Those just "fit" to me. (NT) -- Ruthlass, 21:25:35 12/18/07 Tue
  • C from Bree to Roger and D from Roger to Bree (NT) -- Lady Jessica, 10:18:21 12/19/07 Wed
  • The results of the December Poll are as follows: -- The Pollsketeers, 09:29:01 01/14/08 Mon
  
  
  

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• Here are the results for the November Poll -- The Pollsketeers, 12:57:41 11/29/07 Thu
  A) 1
  B) 5
  C) 1
  D) 16
  E) 0
  F) 8
  G) 1
  
  Thanks for playing and stay tuned for Decembers Poll
  

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  Replies:

  • (NT) -- fcf, 10:41:24 11/30/07 Fri
  
  
  

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• WELCOME TO THE NOVEMBER POLL -- The Pollsketeers, 12:05:07 11/08/07 Thu
  If you went back in time, which holiday would you miss the most?
  
  A) Easter
  B) Thanksgiving
  C) Hanukka
  D) Christmas
  E) New Year
  F) Other
  

  [ Edit | View ]
  
  Replies:

  • D hands down!! I love Christmas, not just the gifts, but just the special time of year that it is. I love the decorated houses, the smell of the food(turkey bought from the store, not me killing it or cleaning it :-) ) I love the carols, and the specials, How The Grinch Stole Christmas is my favourite!!! And I do enjoy picking out gifts for those nearest and dearest to me. By the way, only 47 days to go! (NT) -- Kim L, 13:27:47 11/08/07 Thu
  • D, without a doubt!! Guess I can confess to being a Christmas nut, too! :) Can't wait to crack open my brand new Christmas CD with Louis Armstrong! (NT) -- Chirre, 13:32:08 11/08/07 Thu
  • D as well! My second option was Thanksgiving, but our Christmas traditions are almost identical to our Thanksgiving ones, except with better decorations (I admit, I tend to go overboard on Xmas decor!) , and, of course, presents *g* (NT) -- Elle S., 14:24:44 11/08/07 Thu
  • F- Valentines Day. It seems like all the others could still be celebrated if you went back in time...well, I guess it depends on how far back you go lol. (NT) -- Helen, 14:37:56 11/08/07 Thu
  • D - It's all about family for me and if they're no there - it's not the same. (NT) -- CindyS, 14:45:13 11/08/07 Thu
  • D but mostly because I would miss my family, and that would happen year round! (NT) -- Larnsturt, 14:51:25 11/08/07 Thu
  • D is my choice. When I was young all the relatives near and far would come to my Grandmothers house for homemade rootbeer, orangeade and the best coconut, orange and chocolate cakes. I had 3 old maiden aunts that would come, all dressed in their finery and after a couple of drinks they would be quite merry. I loved to listen to their stories and it will always be a special time in my life. (NT) -- SheltieLass, 14:52:35 11/08/07 Thu
  • B. Every year we travel to my parents house which is 400 miles away. There would be no way of making that journey for a long weekend on horseback. (NT) -- LisaW, 15:29:32 11/08/07 Thu
  • D. I unashamedly LOVE the whole Christmas season! We have even started putting up our decos already.(much to my teenager's shame!)Love it! (NT) -- JulieW, 15:42:09 11/08/07 Thu
  • D. Hands down! The month of December is my favourite time of the year!! (NT) -- Natalie C., 16:13:12 11/08/07 Thu
  • B - Thanksgiving. I'd still have Hanukkah, Passover, and all the other Jewish Holidays, but Thanksgiving is special to me and mine. (NT) -- LizT (*gobble, gobble*), 16:24:07 11/08/07 Thu
  • f. I guess I'd have to pick this. I wouldn't miss any of them - holidays have meant overwhelming tension and stress over the years. It would be nice to not have to dread them. (NT) -- 'becca beccabee, 16:28:34 11/08/07 Thu
  • D. Advent and Christmas can't come soon enough or last long enough for me! (NT) -- shy gal, 18:09:34 11/08/07 Thu
  • D: I just love all the decorations and lights, and seeing the kids faces Christmas morning, It really is sooo much fun! And I love the excuse to get together with friends for dinners, and parties, or just to play cards or something....inside..... -- stillcleaning, 18:28:01 11/08/07 Thu
  • D for me. I am a Christmas nut and it always made me a little sad to read how little real celebration there was in the past. Mostly for Jemmy's sake and for Bree. I would imagine both Jamie and Claire would both love to forget THEIR first Christmas together. (NT) -- Jane, 18:41:11 11/08/07 Thu
  • I'll go with the majority and say D)... Although it might be nice to celebrate "simply" the way Laura Ingalls Wilder did - or even in "the books". Doesn't Jamie carve Jemmy something in ABOSAA, and then babysit him to give Roger and Bree some "alone time". (Or am I just making that last part up because an afternoon alone with Roger sounds like such a nice idea?) (NT) -- Lynn H., 20:06:47 11/08/07 Thu
  • F -- Lisa L., 21:48:31 11/08/07 Thu
    • All of the holidays are special to me and mine, however, the majority of our family is very spread out. We have a very large family and invariably there are some who cannot make it to Christmas/Thanksgiving. Every year on the 4th of July, we have a huge blowout and ALL of the family comes. It's a tradition I wouldn't want to miss, we've been doing it for 11 years now. I love the decor and the food *g*, but it's all about the family with me -- Lisa L., 21:52:01 11/08/07 Thu
  • D! I LOVE everything about Christmas. Easter's a very close second, though. I love that it's the fulfillment of the Christmas promise. (NT) -- Lady Cate, 05:01:20 11/09/07 Fri
  • B... I agree with Helen, above. Depends on how far you go back in time. Thanksgiving was proclaimed a holiday back in 1789. So if I would be back before that date, I would miss this one. It is my favorite Holiday for so many reasons. Mainly, it is a big reminder, for me, to be more grateful. (NT) -- Niseold, 05:42:50 11/09/07 Fri
  • D. This was actually a tough choice for me, I think as long as there is family that the spirit of any holiday would pass the test of time. But, if I went pre-electric era then there would be no trips through different neighborhoods to look at all the lights. (NT) -- LadyGrace, 06:23:25 11/09/07 Fri
  • F - July 4. I love sitting out on a warm summer night, leaning up against DH, watching fireworks and, after the fireworks are over, fire flies. This is such a "peaceful" holiday for us, as there are no decisions as to whose family to visit, what dishes to take, when to decorate, what presents to buy, etc. It's a "just us" occasion. (NT) -- Terri C, 06:42:41 11/09/07 Fri
  • F.: Halloween!!!! I love October and the dressing up, parties and candy corn. : ) (NT) -- LadyBelle, 06:52:51 11/09/07 Fri
  • Wowee! this is a hard one! I would say Christmas because I love buying the tree and smelling it and decorating it with all of our old ornaments but if I lived somewhere like the Ridge, I'd have lovely trees around all the time. And I also love Thanksgiving because we go to my parents who live in a small town and we have a very traditional meal- my mom makes homemade bread with my grandmother's recipe and the kids and I clean and make the cranberries but again back in time, my life would be like that all the time. So I think I will also say F. Halloween, because like Bree, I would be dying for a Hershey's chocolate bar!!!!! (NT) -- susiej, 08:01:50 11/09/07 Fri
  • D. Most definetly Christmas, or we celebrate it more as Yule since we are not Christian. DH was raised Jewish and I Catholic, but we left those long ago. We celebrate Yule and we have a mennorah. I LOVE to decorate, send cards & buy presents. For us it is a celebration of love, family, friends and the coming of light. I'd miss all that. (NT) -- Rollaine, 10:47:35 11/09/07 Fri
  • A - Easter - most of the other holidays to me mean family and you would still have that in the past, well Claire did anyway but CHOCOLATE wasn't in plentiful supply back then and I'm sorry for those of you with very strong religous beleifs but for me EASTER = CHOCOLATE LOL (NT) -- KarenO, 13:46:39 11/09/07 Fri
  • Umm, why wouldn't there be a Christmas or Easter in the past? So it must be F, our Independence day, celebrated since 6.12. 1917. This year we'll be a 90 year old nation. (NT) -- Helka, 02:30:23 11/10/07 Sat
    • There would be but it would be much simpler than we celebrate in the U. S. (especially for those of us addicted to chocolate). And lacking other modern touches like Christmas lights. (NT) -- susiej, 15:46:37 11/10/07 Sat
  • D... I'd really miss Christmas and everything that goes along with it. The decorating, the food, the parties with family, the kids opening gifts and their excitement. (NT) -- JenK, 08:16:36 11/10/07 Sat
  • B. I could do with a much simpler Christmas. I have always liked Thanksgiving because it is a non commercialized family event. Lots of food, family chat, very casual and traditional. (NT) -- Marielley, 18:45:10 11/11/07 Sun
  • F - none of them! I'm not religious, so I don't do A and C, I'm in the UK and we don't do B. We keep Christmas very low key in my house because we don't have any kids around and I hate the commercialism of it, so I can honestly say I wouldn't miss D. And E is actually my birthday, so we don't really celebrate New Year either - at least no more so that they did back then... it's just something that happens each year! I thought about saying Halloween but to be honest I celebrate the Druid festival of samhain instead, so I would have been doing that 200-300 years ago anyway. I've never thought about it before but maybe I'm a humbug!!!!! (NT) -- alison, 05:18:26 11/12/07 Mon
  • C - I know there certainly were Jewish-folk in AMerica in the 1700's .... but not that many ..... although I suppose I could make my own potato latkes and they'd be a big hit! (NT) -- navine, 14:04:10 11/14/07 Wed
    • Another Jew in our midst! (And for years I thought I was the *token*...) LOL! (NT) -- LindaT, 13:33:20 11/15/07 Thu
      • Dinna be afraid, there's the three of us now. Shalom, Navine! (NT) -- LizT, 21:04:11 11/21/07 Wed
        • Another Yid pitching in here for C - Shalom to you all (NT) -- Ruthgold18, 08:17:21 11/29/07 Thu
          • And a great big "Shalom" right back at ya! SOmeday we must have a discussion of DG's "token Jew" --- the interestingly smelling Prof. Stern. (NT) -- navine, 09:26:31 11/29/07 Thu
  • I'd have to say *G* - None of the above. I imagine life would be harder back then, but celebrations would be easier (and back to basics). I hate commercialism! ;o) (NT) -- LindaT, 13:36:01 11/15/07 Thu
  • F. Halloween for me! (NT) -- mommio, 10:50:18 11/16/07 Fri
  • holiday I would miss -- Angela, 10:43:32 11/26/07 Mon
  • B. Thanksgiving is my favorite. And I think I would really like the way Christmas was celebrated long ago (less commercial than today, perhaps?) (NT) -- annieo, 05:14:18 11/27/07 Tue
  
  
  

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