Re: Why it was the three of them >>>> -- Ladies of Lallybroch Literary Forum

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Date Posted: 12:22:55 10/01/09 Thu
Author: dea
Subject: Re: Why it was the three of them >>>>
In reply to: Page 's message, "Why it was the three of them >>>>" on 21:08:28 09/30/09 Wed

>Hi, dea! It's so good to see you here!!

it's good to come out of lurkdom every now and then. now my manager is back from her vacation, i hope i'll have more time.

>I felt it was important for all three of them to hash
>it out together, because all three of them were at
>fault. On the surface, it appeared that Jay and Katie
>pulled a fast one on Adam, but he wasn't as innocent
>as it seems from reading the excerpts. There's a
>chapter in here that brings out Adam's jealousy of
>Jay. Yes, they're best friends, but Adam has a huge
>streak of insecurity where Jay is concerned, and has a
>hard time dealing with that.

>So while Jay and Katie were at fault for surrendering
>to the inevitable while Katie was still living with
>Adam, Adam is also at fault for trying to keep Katie
>with him, not because he loved her, but because he
>just didn't want Jay to have her. If it had been any
>other man, he would have been upset, but he'd have let
>her go, because, like Katie, he knew it was over
>between them long before they broke up. But not Jay.
>He didn't want Jay to best him at something else.

ok, so Adam is jealous of Jay. and he does not love Katie? that's a little disappointing... :-(

>To give Adam credit, he did accept what had happened,
>after a cooling off period, and he found Janie and
>fell in love with her. But after his marriage ended,
>he saw that Katie and Jay were still as in love as
>ever, and his insecurities kicked in again -- Jay
>still had Katie, while Adam had a failed marriage.
>Adam's actions really had nothing to do with Katie,
>but everything to do with Jay.
>
>As for Jay...well, he's not sorry, so that's not
>something he'd tell Adam. He knew Katie didn't love
>Adam, and he suspected Adam didn't really love her.
>He became sure of it when he saw the way Adam put his
>own desires and needs ahead of hers, and Jay didn't
>feel a bit guilty when he and Katie got together. He
>loved her, and it made him furious to see the way Adam
>played on Katie's guilt, using that to keep her with
>him even when she was so unhappy.
>
>If Katie had faced Adam with just the two of them
>there, nothing would have been resolved, because she
>would have ended up feeling guilty again, and would
>have been unable to be harsh enough to dissuade him.
>Adam has a very magnetic personality, and Katie had
>already been affected by it, when she stayed with him
>even though she didn't love him. Plus, it takes a lot
>to get Katie riled up. Having Adam threaten her Jay
>was what was needed to shock her enough to speak her
>mind. She'll put up with a lot to avoid
>unpleasantness, but she won't allow anyone to hurt
>Jay. Seeing Adam raise his fist to strike Jay was the
>catalyst she needed to tell Adam how she felt.
>
>All three of them needed to hear what the others said.
> If they'd tried to resolve this separately, there
>would always be unanswered questions in each of their
>minds.

i get it. so Adam is a bad guy and a lousy friend. what worries me now is how Katie and Adam go back to being friends; if i remember well, at the end of the story he stays with her in America, just before Jay comes back from wherever he had gone to find himself. if Adam is such a bad man and jealous friend, the break-up seems to be definitive. how does Katie accept him back, as a friend? can people really change? if Adam acts like an asshole because he's jealous of Katie, or of his love for Jay, or for Katie and Jay together, that's forgivable, i mean, no-one can be blamed for undesired love. but if the case is Adam’s flaw of character, if he’s jealous of Jay because he feels inferior, weaker, and he can betray and manipulate to get back at Jay, well, why would you want such a person back in your life? i mean, there are things that cannot be forgiven. you probably have everything sorted out, but it’s a torture to have to wait for the book to finally understand it all. :-)

>Thank you so much for your crit! I really need
>to see what others think about it, and even when I
>don't agree, it makes me think even harder about
>why I don't, and it gives me greater depth of
>understanding of my characters and their motivations.
>So I do appreciate your comments more than I can tell
>you!
>
>Hugs,
>Page

you’re very welcome. somehow your characters have seduced me and i find myself worrying about them... congrats for making them so powerful. thanks for sharing!

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[> [> [> [> [> OMG, dea! You must be psychic!! *does the happy dance* >>>> --

Page, 19:46:44 10/01/09 Thu

>If Adam acts like an asshole because he's jealous of
>Katie, or of his love for Jay, or for Katie and Jay
>together, that's forgivable, i mean, no-one can be
>blamed for undesired love.

And that's it! dea, you must be psychic, because I barely have any of that written yet! Adam wasn't jealous of Jay, he was jealous of Katie.

So far, all I have are notes, and a few disjointed paragraphs, because Adam isn't talking to me about this. He's not romantically in love with Jay, but he does love him, and Katie messed that up.

I don't know quite how I'm going to write it. It will probably have to come from Katie's POV when she finally realizes it, and I'm afraid the guys are going to resist knowing about it. Believe me, Adam already is, and that's why it's not written. He won't admit it. And I can't see Jay admitting it, either. Men.

I can't believe you ferreted that out before it was written. I bow down to your exceptional instincts!

Hugs,
Page

Last edited by author: Thu October 01, 2009 19:47:48 Edited 1 time.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> a-ha! --

dea, 12:07:08 10/02/09 Fri

i had a feeling about this. when Katie was Adam's girl, everything was well for him. i think that when she became Jay's girl, she turned into the proverbial third wheel in Adam's relationship with Jay. i guess that happens with male friends, one is generally the band leader, the alpha male, or whatever. the other males tacitly agree to respect the superiority of the alpha as long as they can have their role well defined in the pack and some degree of intimacy with the leader, as the best friend, the wing man, the first officer. the balance is generally broken when the alpha male finds the alpha female. it often brings instability into the pack. saying it so bluntly seems somewhat artificial, but i think that it’s just part of the male psyche. i guess Adam always knew that Katie was not for him, but having Jay take her from him challenged Adam’s position as best man, brought up his insecurities. i agree that even if they were aware of that, neither Adam nor Jay would admit it, not even to themselves, let alone to each other. men were very chauvinist at that time. or maybe it’s just the way they are. it's hard to be a man…

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nothing much to add -- Debi, 12:58:07 10/03/09 Sat

I like all three of them fighting it out and I'm glad Katie finally stood up to Adam and got it out. I do agree with dea's assessment of adam and his motives. He is a jealous bugger and seems somewhat childish in his desire to have things his way, damn how it affects anyone else. Is he by chance an only child? Inquiring minds...
I like the dynamics of the confrontation and I do hope, for all their sakes, that they can get this behind them. Staying nin conflict can make for some fun angst to explore, but I'm willing to bet that all three may not ever be quite settled until they cam make up and coexist in relative peace, even if being close friends isn't possible any more.

Does any of that rattling make a bit of sense?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why, yes! Yes, it did! *G* >>>> --

Page, 19:59:52 10/04/09 Sun

>Does any of that rattling make a bit of sense?

Made a ton of sense, and they do manage to get it smoothed out. Eventually. I've been working on the scene where Adam and Katie finally reach a resolution, but it's a long time coming, after Jay leaves Katie. Adam comes to see her (freaks her out, too, to see him!) and during their conversation, she apologizes to him, tells him she's sorry, "for coming between you and Jay." Adam kind of surprised me while I was writing it, because after a bit of silence, he says simply, "Thank you." It was kind of an acknowledgment of sorts, and I was proud of him. *G*

Oh, and no, Adam's not an only child. He has an older brother called Peter. I don't know too much about him, other than the fact that he's married, lives in Brighton near their parents, and has a boring job, kind of like the job Vernon Dursley has. I think Peter would be more open to the idea of owls flying around London, though. *G*

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's hard to write them, too! *G* --

Page, 19:51:48 10/04/09 Sun

I love the alpha male analogy. It's spot on here. I'm also glad to hear you think neither man would admit this, even if he realized it. Men are different creatures, to be sure. *G*

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>>Hi, dea! It's so good to see you here!! > >it's good to come out of lurkdom every now and >then. now my manager is back from her vacation, i hope >i'll have more time. > >>I felt it was important for all three of them to hash >>it out together, because all three of them were at >>fault. On the surface, it appeared that Jay and Katie >>pulled a fast one on Adam, but he wasn't as innocent >>as it seems from reading the excerpts. There's a >>chapter in here that brings out Adam's jealousy of >>Jay. Yes, they're best friends, but Adam has a huge >>streak of insecurity where Jay is concerned, and has a >>hard time dealing with that. > >>So while Jay and Katie were at fault for surrendering >>to the inevitable while Katie was still living with >>Adam, Adam is also at fault for trying to keep Katie >>with him, not because he loved her, but because he >>just didn't want Jay to have her. If it had been any >>other man, he would have been upset, but he'd have let >>her go, because, like Katie, he knew it was over >>between them long before they broke up. But not Jay. >>He didn't want Jay to best him at something else. > >ok, so Adam is jealous of Jay. and he does not love >Katie? that's a little disappointing... :-( > >>To give Adam credit, he did accept what had happened, >>after a cooling off period, and he found Janie and >>fell in love with her. But after his marriage ended, >>he saw that Katie and Jay were still as in love as >>ever, and his insecurities kicked in again -- Jay >>still had Katie, while Adam had a failed marriage. >>Adam's actions really had nothing to do with Katie, >>but everything to do with Jay. >> >>As for Jay...well, he's not sorry, so that's not >>something he'd tell Adam. He knew Katie didn't love >>Adam, and he suspected Adam didn't really love her. >>He became sure of it when he saw the way Adam put his >>own desires and needs ahead of hers, and Jay didn't >>feel a bit guilty when he and Katie got together. He >>loved her, and it made him furious to see the way Adam >>played on Katie's guilt, using that to keep her with >>him even when she was so unhappy. >> >>If Katie had faced Adam with just the two of them >>there, nothing would have been resolved, because she >>would have ended up feeling guilty again, and would >>have been unable to be harsh enough to dissuade him. >>Adam has a very magnetic personality, and Katie had >>already been affected by it, when she stayed with him >>even though she didn't love him. Plus, it takes a lot >>to get Katie riled up. Having Adam threaten her Jay >>was what was needed to shock her enough to speak her >>mind. She'll put up with a lot to avoid >>unpleasantness, but she won't allow anyone to hurt >>Jay. Seeing Adam raise his fist to strike Jay was the >>catalyst she needed to tell Adam how she felt. >> >>All three of them needed to hear what the others said. >> If they'd tried to resolve this separately, there >>would always be unanswered questions in each of their >>minds. > >i get it. so Adam is a bad guy and a lousy friend. >what worries me now is how Katie and Adam go back to >being friends; if i remember well, at the end of the >story he stays with her in America, just before Jay >comes back from wherever he had gone to find himself. >if Adam is such a bad man and jealous friend, the >break-up seems to be definitive. how does Katie accept >him back, as a friend? can people really change? if >Adam acts like an asshole because he's jealous of >Katie, or of his love for Jay, or for Katie and Jay >together, that's forgivable, i mean, no-one can be >blamed for undesired love. but if the case is Adam’s >flaw of character, if he’s jealous of Jay because he >feels inferior, weaker, and he can betray and >manipulate to get back at Jay, well, why would you >want such a person back in your life? i mean, there >are things that cannot be forgiven. you probably have >everything sorted out, but it’s a torture to have to >wait for the book to finally understand it all. :-) > > > >>Thank you so much for your crit! I really need >>to see what others think about it, and even when I >>don't agree, it makes me think even harder about >>why I don't, and it gives me greater depth of >>understanding of my characters and their motivations. >>So I do appreciate your comments more than I can tell >>you! >> >>Hugs, >>Page > >you’re very welcome. somehow your characters have >seduced me and i find myself worrying about them... >congrats for making them so powerful. thanks for >sharing!
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