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Date Posted: 15:55:35 05/14/10 Fri
Author: Esther
Subject: And then we need to clarify some other things. So get ready, cause you just have to know I have a lot to say >>>
In reply to: Page 's message, "I shall clear the clear! >>>" on 15:54:43 05/12/10 Wed

>I do disagree about the check-ins being contained to
>one post, though, and let me explain why. I can't
>speak for the others, but my weekly posts will be
>things I'm actively working on, and when I post them I
>do want critique. It's no different from having an
>occasional post except for my determination to post it
>on a certain day of the week. And that's just to keep
>me focused on writing. If I know I should post an
>excerpt on Wednesday, I'm hoping it will keep me from
>saying, "Ah, I don't feel like writing. I'm just
>going to pop in this disc of Season One of Charmed and
>get back to the book later." That's not to say I'll
>post every Wednesday; sometimes I may not have
>anything worth posting, or what I did write that week
>may not be ready for critique. But if I have the goal
>of new material each Wednesday I'll be more likely try
>and meet that goal. That's why I want it to be a
>separate post and not lost in a generalized thread -
>it'll be something I need help with. That's where my
>weekly posts differ from my HW. I don't expect a crit
>of my homeworks (which may be just something out of
>the blue and not a WIP), but I do need one with my
>weeklies. See where I'm coming from?

Hmmmm. I see what your saying, but for me, this is an issue of what a check in really is, not that it's a separate post. Here's my take...concerns...

From what you wrote, I get the impression that you feel a check-in is a weekly notice that a specific person will be posting expecting a critique on a specific day of the week.

To me a check-in is a little different. It’s a way to post something we’ve spent time on during the week that we might consider sharing. The usual rules of responding to all the posts on the main page don’t apply, because it’s just an individual taking advantage of the opportunity to say hey, I haven’t totally flown the coop. It’s a way for us to say, look at us! We’re writing! It’s a way to motivate us. It’s a way to participate on this board with our heart’s passion without a commitment of hours of crit, a well crafted homework, or replying to comments from our posts. It should be fun. It should unite us as writers sharing the joy of exploring our craft. And hey, here’s a thought. It’s a way to get lurkers to lurk, and perhaps invite them to comment and get involved. Heck, it’s a way to get us to contribute. It is not, for me anyway, like…say checking my luggage in at the airport. When I check-in at the airport, what is my expectation? That by the time it gets to where its going someone has taken the liberty of opening it up, checking that I have my toothpaste and deodorant, and as a bonus taken and ironed out all the wrinkles from being folded, contained and tossed about while in a flimsy man-made rectangular box? No. My only expectation is that it gets to where I’m going. I’m asking a lot to expect it to arrive in one piece and without tire tracks. Here my only expectation of a check-in is that someone read it. Perhaps comment on it and offer words of encouragement that shows we’re not alone in our endeavours. Isn’t that why we frequent the LIT board in the first place? Because we want to surround ourselves with others who love the same thing we do?

The way I see it, if weekly check-ins are posts meant to have a critique on, then they are not check-ins. They are posts that you want a critique on, and yes, then they should be a separate post. If it is your intention to post them on a specific day because that what will motivate you, by all means, post on that specific day. But, in my mind, a crit is a crit. Asking for feedback is not checking in with the board. And then there too, all the usual applies. If we embrace the give and take on this board, appropriate responses will have been made to all the other posts on the board, including, but not limited to, crits to the best of our ability and comments on the homeworks. If the board is slow, this won’t be an issue. But if it starts to get more posts, like it has lately, this will take more time. But in my mind, this is how to ‘earn’ the right to request the use of my, and every other person's time on this board, and not because a post was made on a specific day.

See, my issue is that if you call a request for a crit a check-in, post it on say Wednesday, and as well as say post homeworks as the whim strikes, there might be some who simply just can’t keep up with the board and post their own work. Also, there may be some who say, hey Page is posting on Wednesday, so I can’t. By taking the initiative (which I applaud and give you a salute) you have assumed a role where people look to you for leadership. Yeah, yeah. I know. There isn’t a leader among us here at the lit, it’s the head hoser herself that’s the leader at LOL. But think about it. You have your name up there for people to come to for questions. You have assumed responsibility. And by no small stretch of my imagination would it be hard to understand the thought that well Page is posting every week asking for feedback so it’s okay to get a crit under the guise of checking in. And while I’m at it, I’m going to claim my day as Tuesday before someone else does.

It’s a courtesy thing. No one can prevent anyone from posting on a particular day. But lets assume all the days of the week are taken up. That leaves, and this is assuming they feel that check-ins are an easy way to post asking for feedback because the rules the board don’t apply because it’s a check in, that there are seven new requests for feedback every week (yeah, yeah, perhaps not all of em want a crit, but still…) Okay…let’s say to be conservative, five crits to be undertaken every week. By the same five people. And lets just say, on average, it takes a couple hours per crit to do it right. That’s ten hours of uninterrupted time to work on someone else’s stuff. Ten hours is a quarter of the average work week. By the rules we just identified that means all those replies (or crits based on our perception) need to be done before we can post our own stuff. Or perhaps because we view check-ins differently, it’ll be taken that regularly posting on one day a week implies we don’t have to treat it as a serious request for a crit and then it won’t get adequate responses. I have numerous excerpts that I would like a crit on and because I don’t feel I’ve earned the right to ask for one, I haven’t posted one. I’m sure I’m not alone here. And this situation of declaring a specific date to post an excerpt for crit troubles me because the honest to goodness true crit is the purpose of the board. In the scenario you suggest, I envision the check-ins have the potential to become just five people posting. This is a far cry from feeling motivated. I’m feeling like I’ll never get my day. If that makes any sense.

And just for the sake of argument, if those five people all have their specific day, and there is the regular posts for homework, requests for crits and anything else, isn’t this board going to scroll faster? What happens when the posts are archived before they have a chance to be read and commented on?

How is this going to work? What exactly is a check-in? How is it different from a crit? If I haven’t ‘cleared the board’ does that mean I can’t check in? And whoever specifies a specific day of the week gets dibs? What if I say Tuesday is my day and don’t post, and because others where expecting me to post, they have nothing ready?

Crits, done right, work on this board. Speaking for myself, I don’t post an excerpt until I’ve looked at it so long that I can’t see the forest because I’m focused on one individual tree. It’s the best I can make it before I ask for feedback. And it’s that feedback that shows me the pathway past the tree and back into the forest and makes my imaginary world a better place. After I ask, I wait and I listen and then I ponder. Personally, I can’t do that every week. I’m lucky to write once a week, never mind get a complete scene ready for a crit every week. And I have no problem with those that can, and do, post once a week if they are contributing and participating the best they can. They have earned the right to post. I know I haven’t been, and so I haven’t. But I don’t like the impression that once I am ready to post, I might be interfering with someone's day. Does that mean I should perhaps consider confining it to a specific day of the week not taken? I don’t want to feel bad if I have time on Wednesday or Saturday and post. I believe as long as whoever wants to post has participated, whoever posts first gets dibs. What happens if I do post on a Wednesday? Does that mean that you feel obligated to give me a crit before you post your check-in? Or would you post yours and get back to mine when you had time? Why can't I post 500-1000 words of something I've written and call it a check-in? After some of the weeks I've had lately, I'd love to simply come to the LIT and type in the message subject something like OMG it is like riding a bicycle meaning I haven't forgotten how to write simply because it's been so long since I have. And you know, on those days where I have a few minutes, I'd like to be able to come here and share in the worlds we create from nothing. words without someone to read them are meaningless. A check-in simply allows us to share. But no, I don't think just the fact that I've managed to squeeze some time out and write makes it worthy of it's own post. What is the point of that. To me, that's just taking up board space better used to crits.

And then again, maybe this is just my issue and none of the above would arise. But this goes back to the questions. What is a check-in? What is a crit? What is your expectation of each? Is it necessary to distinguish between the two? And if they are one and the same, why not just call it a crit in the first place?

And don't think I want to curb your enthusiasm. I love how you get involved. But I see more benefits out of a once a week post, with the contributions being made by anyone and everyone, than using the term weekly check-in to post a request for a crit. That is an option available to each one of us and can be done at anytime,if we can keep up with the board, and have the necessary time and resourses to stick with the goal of posting a scene for crit once a week. Please feel free to disagree, this is just me stating my opinion.

Hugs

Esther


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[> [> [> [> If there are enough people posting to worry about keeping up with crits, I'll be ecstatic and worry about keeping up after I pick myself up off the floor. I'm just sayin... -- Debi, 18:04:37 05/14/10 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: If there are enough people posting to worry about keeping up with crits, I'll be ecstatic and worry about keeping up after I pick myself up off the floor. I'm just sayin... -- Paige2, 17:59:24 05/15/10 Sat

Well I'm a newbie to the board and honestly I'm not sure of all the rules but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in if it's alright, as I am a bit muddled.

I was under the impression, and please forgive me one and all if I am wrong. I thought we were here to share our writings/excerpts and, if any felt so inclined, to crit it. The crit helps all of us to grow as writers. Am I expecting everyone to crit my excerpt, no. But, I think if at least 1-2 people respond and others say, "as xyz said-love it, or, not my cup of tea", I am good with that. :-)

Since I am a newbie I feel as though I must respond to everyone's crit (I count it as a post) and I am finding it hard to give a great crit and keep up with my current WIP. Now I find there are homework assignments too. (Do I have to write something on those as well? gasp!)

Time is a rare commodity for me and when I have it I work on my WIP, which is what I suspect everyone else on this board is doing as well. :-) (Yeah...Go us!)

I enjoy reading everyone's excerpts, as everyone here is very talented. Unfortunately, I do not always have time to give a full soft/hard crit, but what I can and will tell you is whether I like/love something or see a typo, and whether I agree/disagree with the response(s) before mine.

I'm a bit confused, what is expected of me? Help!


Also (getting back up on the box), i/m/o I would think if you respond to someone's excerpt you are in fact posting. If you put up a new message, even if its just to say, Hi I'm alive and in the writing trenches-came up to breathe. Heading back in." is a post.

I think if someone has worked a scene/excerpt to death and really needs advice on it or a serious crit - post it up; shouldn't matter what day of the week it is. However, what I would like to see, and this is just me, (perhaps THIS should be the homework assignment), after someone has given the crit/advice, put the reworked excerpt back up so we can read it and then mark the thread as CLOSED.

Just my 2 cents (or was that 25 cents worth) of unsolicited commentary. Going back into the trenches now, I have to explain to two (not so happy) men a pregnancy, two deaths and two spells. Hmmmmmmm that homework assignment looks good - I'll take the line please.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Good ideas... -- debikm, 22:10:00 05/15/10 Sat

What always was so appealing to me about this board is its lack of hard and fast rules. As far as I am concerned, as long as we are respectful and offer creative criticisms, that's how it should stay.

Don't be a board hog, posting your stuff all the time and not commenting on others. Give and take, that's what it's all about. If I wanted rules and regulations about everything, I'd join one of those very regimented crit groups. Let's keep it as simple as we can. Post as you like, offer comment as you are able and inclined. What does the poster want? I'm always open the whatever my friends here can offer: hard, soft, typo patrol, whatever. As long as all I get isn't "This sucks!!!" with no ideas on how to fix it, I'm good.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well geez Debi, if we don't have rules, how can I break them? >>> -- Esther, 20:15:27 05/16/10 Sun

What always was so appealing to me about this board is its lack of hard and fast rules. As far as I am concerned, as long as we are respectful and offer creative criticisms, that’s how it should stay.

Don’t be a board hog, posting your stuff all the time and not commenting on others. Give and take, that’s what it’s all about. If I wanted rules and regulations about everything, I’d join one of those very regimented crit groups. Let’s keep it as simple as we can. Post as you like, offer comment as you are able and inclined. What does the poster want? I’m always open the whatever my friends here can offer: hard, soft, typo patrol, whatever. As long as all I get isn’t “This sucks!!!” with no ideas on how to fix it, I’m good.

While it’s true the board works because we’re a giving, courteous group, without a bunch of hard and fast rules, I feel there are guidelines we all need to follow. If not, why do we have a FAQ? Why do homeworks have their own set of protocols? More importantly, why is Paige posting that she’s a bit confused and is asking what is expected of her? She has some damned good points, and it’s her fresh outlook that enforces my opinion that something needs to be done and that this needs to be clarified. I’m not asking that we sign our souls away with our own blood, or expect a drill sergent to enforce them, but yeah, we all need to on the same page. I haven’t forgotten what it was like to be a newbie. And you know what? There might not have been strict rules, (although the library link existed back then and it did answer all sorts of these kinds of things) but I did follow what the others were doing until I learned the ropes. What do newbies have to follow here? With no guidelines, everyone is supposedly able to post whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want, as per their inclination, as long as they’re not being a board hog and are commenting on others posts where able to do so or however they are so inclined. I’m of the mind that this thinking doesn’t lead to a cohesive board working towards the same goal. Even I don’t know what kind of response I’m expected to give on some posts.

Give and take is great. Let’s keep it simple works for me too. So let’s get it that way. Here are my thoughts…

As you are aware, I feel I muddied the waters with instigating the ‘check-in’ way back when, when Larn threw down the gauntlet. A check-in was then, as I feel it should be now, a way to post what we’ve written, onto the board without any expectation besides that it’ll be read by someone. It was meant to keep us up to date on what we’ve been working on and it still has the ability to function in that capacity. Simply, a way to congregate and share our creative writing. The keyword being share. I can’t see the benefit of everyone who wants to post a check-in all starting their own thread because the intent isn’t the same as it is for crits or homeworks and I think it’ll make the board scroll faster than it should. The intent of the post is just to share our writing from the week, and I feel having it grouped together under one post enforces the perception that we all can post a bit from our work, and have the knowledge we’re not the only one out there. Kinda like the Bulletin Board on the Social Board, only we’re sharing something we’ve written. A weekly check-in post should be the call that goes out for the fun to begin. A new post, to me, signifies the need to do something, or that someone is asking for a critique. A check-in, is not IMO, a stepping stone to request a crit because that option is available to anyone as soon as they have a scene that needs a critique and they take the opportunity to start a new post. A separate post requesting a crit is a serious endeavour that should be taken that way. I don’t believe it matters what day anyone posts, but no, I don’t like the impression that comes to mind when someone claims/states a certain day to post. If a certain day works better as far as posting goes, fine, post that day, but don’t call out dibs. If necessary maybe we should bring back the monthly goals because that’s where the desire to post a new scene for critique every week should be posted and not in a check-in. Posting goals for the world to read doed hold us accountable.

Well, some things for you lallybrochians to think about and let me know.

Hugs

Esther

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I haven't made it to your post yet, so I'll say it here. Welcome to the Lit Forum! And now if you will, step this way >>> -- Esther, 18:50:32 05/16/10 Sun

Well I'm a newbie to the board and honestly I'm not sure of all the rules but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in if it's alright, as I am a bit muddled.

Newbie opinions are always valued and appreciated. Especially when you’re throwing out 2 cents. *G* IMHO, the fact that you’re muddled means we need to address these things.

I was under the impression, and please forgive me one and all if I am wrong. I thought we were here to share our writings/excerpts and, if any felt so inclined, to crit it. The crit helps all of us to grow as writers. Am I expecting everyone to crit my excerpt, no. But, I think if at least 1-2 people respond and others say, "as xyz said-love it, or, not my cup of tea", I am good with that. :-)

Well, it’s not so cut and dried as that. Yes we are here to share our writing. Not quite, to the if any felt so inclined, to crit it. Yes, I agree they are an invaluable tool to improve our writing. Done right, the writer and the critiquer learn and grow and can improve their own work.

But here’s where it gets dicey. You see, crits are the life-blood of this board. And true, yes, any that participate on this board _choose_ to do so. So if I’m not inclined to crit your work, for whatever reason, why would you be inclined to crit mine when I posted? Why should I anticipate you would be willing to spend your time, time that you could spend on your own writing or doing anything else you value, when I choose, for whatever reason, not to crit yours. Now, I don’t keep score. I don’t say to myself, well gee, I crited five scenes for her, and she’s only done two for me, so she owes me three before I crit anymore. We all understand the life thing we have going on the side, and we don’t have rules that force us to contribute before we receive something in return. This is truly a give and take board, and let me assure you, it works. The more you give to it, the more you get back out of it.

But Paige, hon, you need to raise your expectations. One to two people responding is good? Someone commenting with a generalized comment, basically riding on the shirttails of someone elses time and crit? That is _not_ good with me. Yeah, you can expect something along those lines every once in a while, but it is not the norm. Or it shouldn’t be. And I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know when I crit I never read the other comments/crits until I have finished mine, so you will never get a comment like I agree with so and so, or so and so got all my nits from me. Seeing what someone else sees limits what I am capable of. If that makes any sense. I believe to truly experience everything firsthand is what allows us to grow as writers. And trust me, I’ve critted scenes here on this board that were not my cup of tea, and they were the ones where I learned the most, and where, I believe, my comments held weight because I was the new set of eyes in a world I didn’t understand.


Since I am a newbie I feel as though I must respond to everyone's crit (I count it as a post) and I am finding it hard to give a great crit and keep up with my current WIP. Now I find there are homework assignments too. (Do I have to write something on those as well? gasp!)

If you’re referring to the crits you received in regards to your excerpt, yes, you should always respond to them, and not just because you’re a newbie. It the courtesy thing to let whomever took the time to go through your except that you appreciate their time and that you value the feedback they choose to give you.

If you’re referring to critiquing the posts of others to offer feedback on their story, this is where you choose to give of your time, knowledge and experiences to help a fellow writer, and yes, I can say they appreciate any insight you can provide. This is the life-blood I referred to.

I would have thought Debi would respond regarding the homework question you had since she’s the homework maven, but since she didn’t, I’ll try and ease your mind. Homework assignments are optional and you need not feel obligated to write one unless one inspires you. Sometimes writing a homework assignment helps get the juices flowing again, and sometimes it’s a way to participate on the board. But whatever the reason for choosing to write one, homework is meant to be fun, and so they are not critted, but this is where general comments come into play. Perhaps what you liked, didn’t like or what works for you or what doesn’t. However, crits can be requested by the poster, and then the usual applies.


Time is a rare commodity for me and when I have it I work on my WIP, which is what I suspect everyone else on this board is doing as well. :-) (Yeah...Go us!)

Yay us is right! Finding time to write is challenging in itself. Kudos to those that do!

I enjoy reading everyone's excerpts, as everyone here is very talented. Unfortunately, I do not always have time to give a full soft/hard crit, but what I can and will tell you is whether I like/love something or see a typo, and whether I agree/disagree with the response(s) before mine.

Yup, there are extremely talented writers on this board. And I’m grateful to be part of the LOL community. Unfortunately, I’m in the same boat as you as far as time goes. All we ask is that you do what you can. Sometimes you can only offer impressions, sometimes you can get into more depth, sometimes you might not have time to reply at all. We understand and do appreciate that you are trying and are doing the best you are able.

This is where I think the more specific we are as to what we want the better for everyone as our request/expectations/needs have a better chance of being satisfied and conversely if our time as critiquers is limited we can give the feedback the writer needs without mudding the waters with general comments that don’t really help or are not what we are looking for.

Typos should always be pointed out. But we are not here to agree or disagree with someone else’s response as that has the potential to take comments to help us improve our stories and make them personal. We are here to offer our own opinion when it is asked for, and as such, it is never right, and it is never wrong. It just is. We are all entitled to express our thoughts without fear that someone might not agree with our view/opinion. If comments we make become the focus of anothers critique, that person is critiquing our view/opinion and making it personal. Writing is personal, but the focus here is not. The focus needs to stay on the writing as it is presented to us and not have the critique become about another’s view or target the author him/herself. That has the potential to bring personal feelings and emotions into it, and the last thing I want to do is to hurt someone’s feelings. As long as our intent is to help in a constructive manner, and we offer constructive criticism on the writing and the story as we view it as readers, what others have to say is another perception that bring our world(s) to life. Differing views are encouraged, justifying the why we feel the way we do is not. The beauty of this board is that we can disagree. IMHO the more viewpoints the better.


I’m a bit confused, what is expected of me? Help!

Well, hon, I tried to, but if I wasn’t clear, (which happens all the time BTW) feel free to contact me, or post your questions on the board.


Also (getting back up on the box), i/m/o I would think if you respond to someone’s excerpt you are in fact posting. If you put up a new message, even if its just to say, Hi I’m alive and in the writing trenches-came up to breathe. Heading back in.” is a post.

You were on a box? Geez. I’d hardly call this post a soapbox post. *G*

Well, in my mind, I do use certain words to identify specific things. If you are responding to someone’s excerpt, you are replying. If you are replying to comments you received on a crit on your excerpt, you are responding. If you start a new message, you are posting.


I think if someone has worked a scene/excerpt to death and really needs advice on it or a serious crit – post it up; shouldn’t matter what day of the week it is. However, what I would like to see, and this is just me, (perhaps THIS should be the homework assignment), after someone has given the crit/advice, put the reworked excerpt back up so we can read it and then mark the thread as CLOSED.

I definitely agree that the day you post doesn’t matter.

As far as reposting a scene after reworking it based on the comments, I don’t see how this can work. Speaking just for myself, sometimes it takes a fair amount of time to rework a scene and by that time, the original post is in the archives, and the only time the thread can be closed is when it scrolls through all ten pages in the archives and disappears from the WWW altogether. Now it is possible to post a message on an archived one, which brings it back to the main page. I don’t think that is what we want because a) it’s already had its day and b)this would cause the newer posts to scroll. Even if it’s posted as a new message, I don’t think this would be a good use of board space, unless the writer is still having issues with it or wants more feedback on the changes. That is a personal decision and it has happened.


Just my 2 cents (or was that 25 cents worth) of unsolicited commentary. Going back into the trenches now, I have to explain to two (not so happy) men a pregnancy, two deaths and two spells. Hmmmmmmm that homework assignment looks good – I’ll take the line please.

Well, since you offered your two cents, and then got back on the box, I’d say that this was your four cents on the issues. I appreciate your taking the time to comment, jumping right into the fray as it were. *G* Oh and good luck explaining a pregnancy, two deaths, and two spells. I think I’d like to hear that myself! *G*

Hugs

Esther

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[> [> [> [> [> That’s the way to stay positive Debi! >>> -- Esther, 18:42:50 05/16/10 Sun

The thing is, I’m differentiating between the number of crits per post and the number of people posting. If more people participate, the potential to have more crits, from more people, benefits the board as a whole as well as the individuals posting. More involved crits by more writers would increase the activity, and when there is activity/involvement by different writers on this board, the crits take care of themselves. Trust me on this because I’ve seen it work. Based on recent history of this board, when there are only two or three people posting, only two or three comments come back when it really matters. This board is capable of so much more than that.

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