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Date Posted: 22:25:56 09/25/01 Tue
Author: andrewsfan
Subject: In case you were wondering...
In reply to: andrewsfan 's message, "*sheesh* I forgot the most important part" on 22:12:15 09/25/01 Tue


what my point is...

Well, last May when Voyager ended I read all the rants and decrying of TPTB. I also read how some folks were never going to watch Trek again or those who loved Trek felt betrayed etc.

I realize for some, it really was the end. However, I think many were just upset and needed to vent. Now, it's time for another Star Trek moment and some folks perhaps are thinking "I shouldn't reward TPTB with my viewing, yet I'm a Trek fan and I want to view."

I'm not a life long Trek fan but I am a life long Julie Andrews fan. What does one have to do with the other? I'm making a point about the importance of embracing the passions in your life, even when the passion isn't perfect.
Yes, TPTB missed some great opportunities with Voyager and will no doubt miss opportunities with Enterprise. But if you enjoy the process, painful as it is at times, don't deny yourself. Passions in life are incredibly irritating and incredibly wondrous. Don't beat yourself up about Enterprise. If you like Trek, go for it!

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Replies:

[> [> [> Re: In case you were wondering... -- Nance, 00:44:07 09/26/01 Wed

Yeah..I'll tune in...BUT my expectations are very low. I'd rather look forward to a Voyager movie of some kind. Even if they give Janeway a different ship...just so long as we see her again. *BG*

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[> [> [> I got your point! *vbg* -- Dar2vad, 01:52:23 09/26/01 Wed

And yes I was one of those who said, "I'll never watch again." And yes I'm a Trekker from way back. However, I will stand by my convictions.

I literally have no interest in Star Trek anymore. At least not a new show made by those guys. And I will not take the time to get into something I have no interest in.

In light of all the interviews and comments that were made concerning J/7, TPTB knew they had a tiger by the tail. A controversial issue to be sure, but an issue that would have people tuning in to watch. Whether from enjoyment, or just to complain. And we all know people love to verbalize they're complaints. *g*

I'm not talking about linking them up romantically, for no matter who writes those episodes (pairing individuals together), they're never done correctly. I'm talking about allowing Janeway and Seven to form a friendship. Thereby highlighting their bond, and showing how females come together in support of one another.

Kirk, Picard and Sisko all had a confidant or two that they confided in. Who did Janeway have? It really wasn't Chakotay, for he disagreed with her too much. Despite how they tried to show that was true. They said her and Tuvok had a long history, but they didn't play it up. As a matter of fact, as time passed by, I thought they more and more down played their relationship. Seven and Janeway would have been perfect, and for many reasons. But I really would have liked to see that female bonding, like they initially did for Xena and Gabrielle.

But no they didn't do that, and how did the ratings fare? Did you know that they got progressively worse? I checked. Next Generation, and Deep Space Nine both started off with moderate ratings, and as the years passed, they just got higher and higher. The reverse was for Voyager. So no matter what TPTB did, it didn't help the show.

No andrewsfan, I do understand what you are saying, but I can't and won't give to a show that purposefully turned away from something that could have been just as great as the previous shows. If many felt the way I do, and didn't watch the show, perhaps those arrogant fellows would finally learn a lesson, and then listen to what the people have to say.

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[> [> [> [> Re: I got your point! *vbg* -- Cathy, 19:10:41 09/26/01 Wed

Jeesh Dar, get out of my head! I feel the exact same way. *VBG*

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[> [> [> Okay I admit it.. -- Nance, 11:09:41 09/26/01 Wed

A large part of me wants Enterprise to flop, big time. I want that to prove that TPTB are all washed up and need to bring in new and more talented people. I want to know that all of the shortcomings of Voyager were Not because they didn't care about the show (which is what it looked like), but because they don't have what it takes anymore. Voyager deserved better. If that makes me shallow, I accept that.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Okay I admit it.. -- mary, 00:04:39 09/27/01 Thu

I thought Enterprise was really boring. A lot of shooting, shouting, and running around. Archer? no Janeway and T'Pol? a weak, pitiful imitation of Seven of Nine. The doctor seemed to be the only memorable character. Enterprise seems just another boy show. Maybe it will improve with time and possible guest appearances from Voyager characters.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Archer no Janeway -- andrewsfan, 00:22:46 09/27/01 Thu


Actually, Scott Bakula portrayal of Capt. Archer seemed to be an actor impersonating John Wayne as he was playing a Star Trek Captain. I used to watch a lot of John Wayne movies (my dad's favorite) and Bakula was doing Archer as John Wayne. Anyone else notice?

I agree the two female leads aren't very charismatic. The characters have potential but right now I'm not impressed with the ladies who play them. The aliens reminded me a bit of the creatures from the void in the STV episode "Night."

Bakula in underwear, pacing...well, I guess they had to prove this Captain had the "right equipment" aka a penis.

The only thing I found interesting was the retro feel of the show. It did feel pre-TOS as far as the technology.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Archer no Janeway -- mary, 00:53:06 09/27/01 Thu

Yes, it did have that John Wayne, just-do-it! feel. Maybe it will improve with time but the women characters were so weak...compare them to the women in the first episodes of Buffy or Xena or even Scorpion with Seven in full Borg mode. Where's the WOW factor? And the way these guys kept pecking at T'Pol. I got the feeling it was like some male battle cry to "take back" Star Trek from women in general who have been running/commanding the franchise for the past 4 or 5 years. I did think the pre-TOS technology was fun though but don't even mention "Night"! It's too heartbreaking.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Pecking at T'Pol -- andrewsfan, 01:02:48 09/27/01 Thu


Mary your comment about the guys pecking at T'Pol is interesting. I had the uncomfortable feeling that because she was a Vulcan woman that it was somehow okay to peck away at her. Since she doesn't display emotion her "feelings" can't be hurt so it's okay for the guys to act as they do. No need for the males to think before they interact with T'Pol.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Pecking at T'Pol -- mary, 18:38:33 09/27/01 Thu

That's a good point about not having to think before they act towards T'Pol. It might have been fun if she were more Vulcan-like and seemed able to take them all on. Although not unlikable, I found her weak and often unconvincing. Hopefully, in time the actress will find more strength in the character. She'll following in some pretty heavy duty footprints.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Okay I admit it.. -- Rose, 01:23:25 09/27/01 Thu

And I admit that I didn't watch it...
I wasn't here and I forgot all about it.
It doesn't sound like I missed anything.

I've been watching 'Trek since I was a wee bairn and I looked forward to TNG and I looked forward to Voyager.

However, my reaction to Voyager was different. I really cared about these characters and I still do. But that's not because it was Trek. I cared because it was different, and there were women in power and in power they were... And by the time the writing became so poor, and each episode was often dissapointing, I was already loyal enough to the characters to keep watching.

I could tell when Enterprise became the priority of TPTB and Voyager was just something to get done with. And frankly I still resent that a bit. I like Bakula, but I haven't enjoyed any of his performaces other than on Quantum Leap, which I still enjoy. So I'm not inspired to watch in the slightest... even less so given your reviews.

I was drawn to Voyager for three reasons:

1)It was StarTrek and I liked Trek for Trek.

2)There was a woman in the captain's chair and I wanted her to succeed.

3)I saw TV guide and thought "Oh, Kate Mulgrew... I think I know who she is... I like her work."

I still like TNG although I find the re-runs a bit boring most of the time. I have no tolerance for TOS although I must have seen each episode at least 100 times over the years... and I still on occasion watch the Voy re-runs.

But it's all changed for me... I don't want more Trek now. I want more Voyager.

It was different, and that was good... and I know it's redundant to say this... but TPTB missed the point.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay I admit it.. -- andrewsfan, 01:29:25 09/27/01 Thu


You know Rose as I was watching I felt that Enterprise would be a big boost for Voyager. I think more fans will turn to Voyager fanfic and even come to appreciate the show more during reruns. Voyager was a missed opportunity in many ways but compared to Enterprise it may become a more appreciated haven, especially for female fans.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Where female fans turn -- Rose, 01:39:31 09/27/01 Thu

andrewsfan, you're right...

There's no more Janeway, there's no more Xena... and I'm just too old for Buffy. Fanfic it is.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Red-meat-eating men! -- Julie, 02:15:47 09/27/01 Thu

I didn't catch the whole show just bits and pieces, but the captain and the other fellow eating big steaks while T'Pol picked at her vegetarian meal just said it all for me. TPTB are beating their chests yelling, "We have M E N on this show! They eat meat, they have macho names like archer! They talk back to women!" The other woman on the show sound like she is in a horror movie, screaming and shaking at everything. ugh.

"straight and steady" and utterly unappealing

Sigh.

Did like the anti-contaminant gel on the non-bra-wearing T'Pol though. What can I say I am a pig.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Straight and Steady -- Rose, 10:22:22 09/27/01 Thu

So if this line, "Straight and Steady" is going to be Archer's signature... and we know TPTB felt Janeway was unstable, or you might say 'unsteady'... does that mean that they're saying what I think they're saying?????

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> hetro and lackluster... -- Julie, 11:21:24 09/27/01 Thu

Yes Rose,
I'd say,
they are saying,
they saw,
what we saw.

This seems a major rehaul of the franchise. A hetero-sexualization and de-feminization of Star Trek, I think it is known as being put through a Russell Crowe filter.

Sort of kidding, sort of sadly serious.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers...Re: hetro and lackluster... -- Nance, 11:43:58 09/27/01 Thu

**This seems a major rehaul of the franchise. A hetero-sexualization and de-feminization of Star Trek, I think it is known as being put through a Russell Crowe filter.**

BIG MISTAKE! This franchise is not healthy enough to alienate it's VERY IMPORTANT female audiance. And this show, so far, is not good enough to make up the difference in lost female viewers. The one slightly redeming thing happened at the end of the show where Archer put his tail between his legs and admitted to T'Pol that the mission would have failed without her. She agreed. Then he admitted to his preconceived prejudices and vowed to leave them behind....
without actually apologizing for being as asshole.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers...Re: hetro and lackluster... -- andrewsfan, 13:02:32 09/27/01 Thu


Well, it will alienate some women but I've already read a few comments from women who like Archer in his blue underwear.

I also saw the potential for a lot of m/m subtext and fanfic.

The show had images and a theme about fathers and sons and male bonding. However, I don't think the actors or characters are stellar enough to hold viewer attention. "Broken Bow" did seem to use a lot of old Trek plot bits and pieces. There don't seem to be any fresh ideas.

I do wonder if it might get an audience based on the current world situation. More and more people may want to let TV characters do their travelling for them. IN "Enterprise" the good and bad guys will be defined and good will win out. That could appeal to many. How Ironic that "Enterprise" could grow into a success not from within but from influences from without.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers...Re: hetro and lackluster... -- Cathy, 17:42:37 09/27/01 Thu

I hate to tell you this Nance, but ST was never aimed at women, even KM admits to that. They would like very much for us women to go take a flying leap out of the nearest airlock so that they can increase their teenage boy base. From all of the descriptions I have heard about Enterprise, they are well on thier way to perfect demographic heaven. I hope they choke on it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers...Re: hetro and lackluster... -- Nance, 18:50:22 09/27/01 Thu

I agree with you Cathy...their target is young males. But I think they are fooling themselves to ignore the large female audience.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: hetro and lackluster... -- Kat, 21:59:55 09/27/01 Thu

"I think it is known as being put through a Russell Crowe filter."

Don't know if I like that comparison - I like Russell Crowe, he's got a rep of being a very good mate to his female friends. A man's man but no chauvenist. (Ignore me - just kiwi loyalty here..)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> He's just the manliest man I could think of... -- Julie, 00:02:22 09/28/01 Fri

I didn't mean it as a dig.

I like Crowe too. charismatic, yes. talented, god lord yes. high estrogen content, not so much.

And bonus point for being wonderful in Sum of Us.

I don't want to piss off the kiwis

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He's just the manliest man I could think of... -- andrewsfan, 00:10:14 09/28/01 Fri


What's this - small print? Do you know how hard it is for those of us in advanced years to read small print? ;-)

And what's all this talk about manly men...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> the wee font -- Julie, 00:59:34 09/28/01 Fri

That's my "talking to myself" font size. I'll keep it at 12 for you, since you're advanced and all. ;)

You know, the manly talk, Enterprise started it. I was just reacting.
I'll eat some soy or something and get my estrogen back up.

uhm... J7

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Enterprise...what's the point?? -- Nance, 11:26:18 09/27/01 Thu

Hi,
Saw Enterprise last night...It was pretty much what I thought it would be, mediocre. Although at times I thought it was embarassingly bad. The animosity of the crew towards T'Pol was annoying and quite frankly disgusting. Archer and especially the commander "Trip"(?) were so crass and hostile at times it was hard to take them seriously as Starfleet officers. This show had some of this worst dialog fall out of these guys mouths, honestly how far back have we gone here Neanderthal days. I'd like to see one of them get away with that crap in 2001 let alone the 22nd century.
The biggest surprise for me was T'Pol. I thought I would hate her...she was the best thing about the show. She was WAY more intelligent than ANY of the Enterprise crew; showed WAY more class and stood steadfast when all she got was condesending, hostile rhetoric from the guys. I'm probably going to watch the series JUST for her...until TPTB ruin her character, which they will because, well, she's a female after all. It's funny, so many 'fans' complained
that Seven of Nine always saved the day on Voyager, and here they now have T'Pol saving everyone's butts from day one.
The best part of the night for me was, in my area of the country, Voyager comes on at 10:00pm. After Enterprise tonight I watched Voyager's "One Small Step". An outstanding episode, which only made Enterprise look even more pathetic.
Anyway, just my opinion.

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