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Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Kieran
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 09:21:28 03/09/07 Fri
In reply to: Stephen Bevan 's message, "Grand Ocean Hotel" on 11:56:08 03/02/07 Fri
 I do tend to agree, but I feel the point you are missing is that the Ocean Hotel is currently being developed to a high standard which will be an asset to the area.

If assylum seekers were to be placed there the site it would have remained in the derelict eye sore of a state it is now.

It amazes me the number of people in Saltdean who feel hard done by by the current development to the Ocean Hotel.

I am personally looking forward to it immensley and think it will bring with it a few more cars yes, but young vibrant people who lets face it, have a more positive outlook on life than the Fuddy Duddys Saltdean seems to have accumulated.....





>On passing the Ocean Hotel in Saltdean recently, I was
>reminded of the angry protests which were prompted, in
>2003, by the prospect of 10 families of asylum seekers
>being given temporary accommodation there. As I
>remember it, a rather pernicious campaign of leaflets,
>public meetings and placard-waving was initiated by
>some local residents and shopkeepers. Ten families of
>asylum-seekers, they argued, would place ain
>intolerable burden on the local infrastructure. The
>local school, GP surgeries, car parking and other
>services would, they claimed, be placed under too much
>strain and the arrival of the asylum-seekers should be
>resisted at all costs. Any suggestions that their
>objections were based on xenophobia or racism were
>indignantly resisted, while those local residents who
>dared to speak up in support of asylum-seekers were
>vilified and, in some cases, threatened or
>intimidated. It was not a proud moment for Saltdean
>and, as a resident of almost 25 years, I was ashamed
>of the ‘Little-Englander’ attitudes and the bitterness
>on show during those tense few weeks.
>
>Now the Ocean Hotel is being converted into 279 one
>and two-bedroom apartments. The redevelopment will
>preserve much of the 1930’s chic of the building and
>I’m sure the demand for these apartments will be high.
>However, I’m puzzled by the deafening silence from the
>2003 protesters. I’ve had no angry leaflets posted
>through my door, nor have I been urged to attend a
>public meeting to denounce the initiative. Surely the
>protestors’ arguments about pressure on the local
>infrastructure are even more valid? The number of new
>residents which Saltdean will need to absorb when the
>redevelopment is complete far exceeds the number of
>asylum-seekers who the protesters feared would ‘flood’
>into the community back in 2003.
>
>This is all very troubling. A cynic might argue that
>there is clearly one rule for asylum-seekers and
>another for affluent middle-class people who bring
>their spending power to the local community. The same
>cynic might also suppose that the 2003 protests really
>were based on nothing more than narrow-minded bigotry
>and thinly-disguised racism and that the
>‘infrastructure’ argument was, at best, a disingenuous
>smokescreen.
>
>It is no surprise to me that – in the light of the
>Saltdean experience - the debates on asylum and
>migration in the UK are now being framed in such
>narrow and unenlightened terms. My fear is that, as
>long as local politicians feel there are easy votes in
>whipping up a xenophobic frenzy among local citizens,
>we risk having future elections and political debate
>being polarised in a way which is both socially
>divisive and damaging to harmonious community
>relations.
>
>Stephen Bevan
>Saltdean Drive
>Saltdean
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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 09:17:56 03/19/07 Mon
Although you are obviously and educated person, I would suggest you get your facts straight.

It was not planned to house 10 families, it was actually the long terms plan to house 100's of asylum seekers.

I am not going into the many justified arguments as to why this would have been totally unacceptable but many hundreds of people (not racists) also agreed. Although I will say that I don't suspect the new influx of residents to be milling around without jobs.

On the point about sticking up for the asylum plan caused you to be somehow outcaste, this is absolute rubbish. It was actually the case that if you were against the plans you were immediately classed as a racist which is a serious slur. It is a shame people are just not allowed their own opinions.

Anyway the plans didn't go ahead and I for one am very pleased about that.
[> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 04:41:29 03/20/07 Tue
Good to hear that you do not intend to go into the 'many justified arguments...'

The basic argument was that there had been no local consultation, and, anyway, an overwhelming load would be placed on local services and resources generally.

Now we are going to have even more people here on a permanent basis and it causes you no problem.

Pretty rational thinking, eh?
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Kieran
[Edit]
Date Posted: 07:52:47 03/20/07 Tue
>Good to hear that you do not intend to go into the
>'many justified arguments...'

Grit - just wondering,
Do you have anything positive to say about the exiting new development happening in Saltdean?






>The basic argument was that there had been no local
>consultation, and, anyway, an overwhelming load would
>be placed on local services and resources generally.
>
>Now we are going to have even more people here on a
>permanent basis and it causes you no problem.
>
>Pretty rational thinking, eh?
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 09:22:19 03/20/07 Tue
If you are referring to the Grand Ocean Hotel redevelopment as the 'exciting new development happening in Saltdean', then I surely do.

I think the development design is about the best we could expect - assuming reasonable quality of actual build.

Even if the asylum seekers had been accommodated, the redevelopment would have happenened anyway, as the then owners of the hotel lacked the ability, will or motivation to re-invest. The hotel would have fallen down around their ears...
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 09:25:01 03/20/07 Tue
I said many reasons, you boil it down to just two and then say 'pretty rational thinking, eh'

Seems to me your in need of a bit of rational thinking, eh
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 15:08:42 03/20/07 Tue
I reckon the two I gave were probably the most important.

However, for the sake of those viewing who may not have been in Saltdean at the time, I'm willing to hear the rest of them reprised.

So, please proceed.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 07:40:13 03/21/07 Wed
I spent a good deal of time trying to stop the use for the hotel by asylum seekers. I am afraid that after 4 years I am not going to cover old ground again just for you to come up with some half arsed arguments.

I suggest a hobby such as train spotting would keep you amused rather than spending hours debating a 4 year old non event.

With regard to your comments about retired people, I would suggest they will not be milling around in groups, they will be far to busy knitting and having afternoon naps!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 09:58:04 03/21/07 Wed
So, you complain that the two reasons I advanced were not good enough, but won't advance any others, except you feared at the time that asylum seekers would mill around 'in groups' - just like the local teenagers!

You start to debate Stephen's post, but have now gone off in a huff as you don't wish to '...cover old ground...'.

The point about the impact on local resources is an important one, as additional hundreds of elderly people will most certainly pressurise local primary care facilities.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 08:14:25 03/22/07 Thu
I'm afraid I haven't gone of in a huff, I just find you very boring and have better things to do.

The asylum debate went on for months and took lots of time. I don't now wish to cover it again in depth and would prefer to summarise it by saying asylum seeker hotel = bad thing for Saltdean, flat regeneration = good thing (should be!.

If thats okay with you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 09:46:29 03/22/07 Thu
It's certainly what I expected you to say.

Stephen was simply illustrating that many of the arguments used against the asylum proposal could equally be used against the current proposed influx of new people.

You have not demonstrated that those arguments could not be used legitimately now...

But, I guess, that's OK with you. So far, Stephen wins...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 02:07:17 03/23/07 Fri
I suggest you go and have a look at the plans if I was you. No asylum seekers causing major problems, but nice new flats for mainly working family's. Probably causing a few problems buy hey nothings perfect.

If I was childish to get into who wins I would say Saltdean, but I'm not that childish.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 04:08:14 03/23/07 Fri
I rest my case.
[> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 15:25:05 03/20/07 Tue
Greg,

Apropos your comment: '...I don't suspect the new influx of residents to be milling around without jobs'.

Do you not think retired people may be interested in the new complex?
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Kingston
[Edit]
Date Posted: 07:19:45 03/23/07 Fri
oh touche Grit, a point scored for you !!!! however a meaningless and cheap point since by their very definition people who have retired do not work and will have a tendency to be conspicuous by their prescence during working hours.

I often wonder how those who are supportive of the scheme post fact would actually have reacted if the scheme had gone ahead. It's an unfotunate fact that with this sector of global society are many associated problems, which would have been accentuated by concentrating a large number in a completely unsuitable environment and location.

It is a problem that should be addressed properly with the correct facilities by the relevant authorities. Not swept under the Butlin's carpet.

I wonder how many bleeding heart liberals would remain so supportive if they returned home to find an 'asylum seeker' burgaling their homes ?

If you are so concerned about this issue why waste your time arguing about a 4 year old decision when you should be lobbying the government so that this can be properly dealt with.

Or just get a life.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 10:28:49 03/23/07 Fri
Kingston, you sound like Greg.

Point 1. I would be as unhappy at having my home burgled by an asylum seeker as I would if the culprit was honest to goodness British.

Point 2. Not me who raised the original issue.

Point 3. The argument is not about the '4 year old decision'; it's about applying the then protesters' arguments to the current situation. Which you and alter ego Greg studiously avoid.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Kingston
[Edit]
Date Posted: 12:04:48 03/23/07 Fri
Points, points, points. Points make prizes, prize turkeys that is.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make ? is it not obvious that a hotel full of asylum seekers places a very different burden and cost on the local infrastructure than the new inhabitants of the development will. After all in previous years when the hotel was full of visitors of a similar demographic to that of the new inhabitants the infrastructure coped fine.

The previous argument is invalid, as with most arguments they are not a one size fits all solution, but reflect the specific circumstances, which are very different this time.

You did not start the debate but you are labouring it.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Royle
[Edit]
Date Posted: 14:03:07 03/23/07 Fri
I tend to agree with the views with Kingston & Greg, but does that mean also another of Greg's alter ego. It doesn't sound as though Grit likes people disagreeing with him.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Greg
[Edit]
Date Posted: 02:36:22 03/24/07 Sat
>Kingston, you sound like Greg.

Grit please take of those rose tinted spectacles that are blinding you. Then you can see that it is more the 1 person that disagrees with you. Shock horror it must be hard for your ego to take.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Mat
[Edit]
Date Posted: 11:03:30 03/24/07 Sat
Grit.....100's of Saltdean residents turned up in the cold wind and rain to demonstrate about plans for the Ocean Hotel to home asylum seekers (and just for the record....it was for more than 10 families) We were concerned because if you look at other areas which had a sudden influx of Asylum seekers, Hastings being one of many, crime figures did go up and people, especially the old, were afraid to step foot outside there front doors.
This is FACT!
Did we want the same to happen in Saltdean.......NO!
This is why 100's of people demonstrated.
The re-development of the Hotel, although being sad that a once very succesful hotel has fallen by the way side, can do nothing but good now. They plan to build a youth club for the young and improve road safety in Longridge Avenue...EXCELLENT!
So remind me you daft prat, what is your problem other than trying very unsuccessfully to score pathetic points against a majority of people who disagree with you? Gregs right you should become, if you are not already, a train spotter!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Kingston
[Edit]
Date Posted: 01:31:07 03/25/07 Sun
It is true that if you are going to enter into a debate on a topic that other people obviously feel so strongly about, you should have a more worthwhile objective to achieve, other than endeavour to be as smugly contentious as possible.

Yes, on the face of it the arguments used previously seem contradictory now, but surely this is a preferable use of a vast building in a small community that has the potential to be a massive pivotal force in that community.

I would suggest that rather than be ashamed of your fellow residents for voicing their opinions you should be grateful for their hard work in preventing what would have a serious misuse of the Ocean Hotel. Which given how they were accused if not openly, of being right wing racists was in retrospect very brave.

Certainly more courageous than, 4 years later trying to painting yourself as a liberal minded, philanthropist without the high stakes of the day. If either Grit or Stephen were outspoken supporters of the scheme at the time and offered their own homes to the asylum seekers then you are entitled to make these comments, if not then shut up and be at least secretly grateful that Saltdean is still the middle class heaven that encourages this type of idle debate rather than another Hastings.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
anon
[Edit]
Date Posted: 08:51:53 03/25/07 Sun
Ou est Grit ???????

At least the man can keep a dignified silence when he knows he's been shown up well & truly. Till the next time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Joe
[Edit]
Date Posted: 02:45:35 03/26/07 Mon
Great debate! I always wanted to hear both sides, without threats.. Thanks!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 12:01:34 04/28/07 Sat
'If either Grit or Stephen were outspoken supporters of the scheme at the time and offered their own homes to the asylum seekers then you are entitled to make these comments, if not then shut up and be at least secretly grateful that Saltdean is still the middle class heaven that encourages this type of idle debate rather than another Hastings.'

This is breathtaking stuff from Kingston. So a disabled wheelchair bound person living in a local care home cannot hold and express an opinion on the views held by him and his ilk, simply because of an inability to offer accommodation to an asylum seeker...

No one has suggested that local residents are not or were not entitled to hold and voice their strongly held opinions. (Kingston, though is not quite so generous in the extract above, as the opinions of those who differ from his must fulfil certain conditions).

Perhaps Kingston could read again what has actually been written. It was the given basis for those opinions that has been questioned, as the overload on local resources will be greater now than it was years ago. So far there's been no coherent response. Though, looking at some other threads on this message board I'm not surprised.

In my book, Stephen's points are still valid.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
LePen
[Edit]
Date Posted: 07:53:44 04/29/07 Sun
Asylum seekers my arse!

What about asking our government to stop supporting dictators and only provide opportunities for the ones that have worked hard in their own country. We should not be here to welcome evry dick tom and harry who fancy coming to england because there is easy money to be made.
One very important thing british people must remember, our ancestors did not defend our freedom for us to feel guilty about it . . .
stop acting like politically correct lemmings!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Grand Ocean Hotel


Author:
Grit
[Edit]
Date Posted: 08:12:44 04/29/07 Sun
Which dictators?

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