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Subject: Re: P men's swimming season suspended


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 10:06:38 12/16/16 Fri
In reply to: Bengal 's message, "P men's swimming season suspended" on 23:32:35 12/15/16 Thu

Judgment in any of these cases might be best reserved until we actually know what the comments were.

The First Amendment free speech guarantee does not operate against a private institution like Princeton. Putting aside the merits of any standards it and sister institutions impose, and the process it affords in enforcing them, Princeton and they are entitled to expect more than mere legal behavior from its students as part of the University community.

This was allegedly on a team listserve and these athletes, like other students and perhaps more so, reflect on the University. Whether what they said thereon ought to be punished is, at the moment, an open question. But things like racist statements on such a site cannot be defended.

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Replies:
[> [> Subject: Princeton enforces Title IX plus enforcing strings attached to Federal money


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 10:19:26 12/16/16 Fri


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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton enforces Title IX plus enforcing strings attached to Federal money


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 10:41:20 12/16/16 Fri

Dio -- P does so as a condition of the receipt of Federal financial assistance, not because it is a government actor subject to the First Amendment. Not to get overly legalistic, but there is a significant difference -- thank goodness. Bureaucrats can enforce the conditions on Federal aid well or badly, a separate issue. But I do not want private institutions deemed public entities because they take Federal aid.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton enforces Title IX plus enforcing strings attached to Federal money


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 10:42:45 12/16/16 Fri

To be clearer, I should have said "government" for "public."

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[> [> Subject: Re: P men's swimming season suspended


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 10:23:08 12/16/16 Fri

Well said - finally a little light shed upon the very real limitations of the right of free speech without ramifications at private organizations, as well as a thoughtful call to allow the process to run its course before making uninformed judgments - one way or the other.

The right to impose codes of conduct that promote harmony and diversity among our student populations is way beyond the point of debate, as is the right to penalize those found to have violated such a code of conduct. This has nothing to do with political correctness. Importantly - we don't have any real facts to formulate independent judgement as to this specific conduct. Let's let Princeton do its thing.

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[> [> [> Subject: "You don't target, disparage or demean others."


Author:
Diogenes (Observer15)
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Date Posted: 11:15:55 12/16/16 Fri

Well, say adios to the Democratic and Republican parties, not to mention Jill Stein, Paul Krugman, the New York Times, Fox News, MSNBC, those who believe in, and deny, global warming and, finally, 90% of the faculty and administrators employed at Ivy schools.

Persecution of non-criminal private thoughts and speech, even if offensive to some or many, is wrong and unconstitutional. Offensive speech is exactly what is protected and cannot be abridged or punished.

If burning the American Flag is protected speech, surely private snarky comments about the women's swim team are entitled to the same protection.

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[> [> Subject: Re: P men's swimming season suspended


Author:
Observer15
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Date Posted: 10:29:52 12/16/16 Fri

Yes, Foehi and those of his mind, let us know what you think about political correctness and free speech if and when your daughter is publicly shamed by name on these sites by disgusting descriptions of her or when your son is targeted by name for his race with slurs. Having the right to say something does not make it OK to say it. And while free speech is free speech, targeting individuals and - one could argue - putting women in danger (of sexual assault or rape)by the character of your banter is never OK. It sets up an atmosphere where bad things can and do happen. This behavior needs to be stopped cold and the fact that a number of Ivy schools are doing that by setting standards about what civilized people do and suspending and investigating and possibly punishing when appropriate is to their credit. This is not about this or that school. This is about us all. This is about educating good but thoughtless young men to what is the right thing.You don't cheat. You don't lie. You don't set up an atmosphere where dangerous things are more likely to happen. And you don't target, disparage or demean others. Those are our values, take them or leave them.

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[> [> Subject: Re: P men's swimming season suspended


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 10:31:29 12/16/16 Fri

Thanks. You made the First Amendment point in an earlier thread, credit to you, but it bears repeating.

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[> [> [> Subject: perspective


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 11:16:22 12/16/16 Fri

In the dawn of a new era of "anti political correctness" as epitomized by a significant portion of the electorate more than willing to over look vulgar/misogynistic remarks of a presidential candidate; shouldn't the Ivy admins at least question whether stupid remarks by young men who ought to have known better deserves season suspension. Perhaps reprimand without suspending the season would have been more appropriate.

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