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Subject: Please try to keep up


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:19:16 12/16/16 Fri
In reply to: PennLB 's message, "Go Green Really?" on 11:11:47 12/16/16 Fri


Dio has said repeatedly that he thinks free speech is absolute based upon state constitutions.

That is simply incorrect.

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Replies:
[> [> [> Subject: I don't recall ever saying that criminal speech is an absolute right


Author:
Diogenes (Go Green)
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Date Posted: 11:38:02 12/16/16 Fri

Although my understanding, perhaps incorrect, is that courts are very limited in terms of prior restraint even on the potential of criminal speech.

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[> [> [> Subject: State Constitutions can be broader than the U.S. Constitution


Author:
Diogenes (Go Green)
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Date Posted: 12:34:51 12/16/16 Fri

Go Green: According to all knowing Wikipedia:

"State constitutions cannot reduce legal protections afforded by the Federal charter but they can afford different protections. California v. Ramos 463 U.S. 992 (1983)."

Therefore, New Jersey, New York etc. can offer more protection to speech than the First Amendment, but not any less protection than the First Amendment.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: State Constitutions can be broader than the U.S. Constitution


Author:
Asiasunset
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Date Posted: 12:51:03 12/16/16 Fri

You confuse rights guaranteed under the Constitution as they pertain to free speech and rights afforded private institutions to set rules and regulations as they pertain to speech and other forms of conduct by members of that private community. You can verbalize almost anything at a private institution like Princeton as a 1st Amendment right. It doesn't mean that you have a right to be on their swim team or even remain as a student if that speech violates their code of conduct and you are disciplined according to their established guidelines and process.

We can have a sensible debate over what standards should be or not be at our institutions, but you've badly intertwined inapplicable 1st amendment arguments and even 14th amendment arguments in a discussion that should be fairly clear cut. You have an absolute right to call women by the "c" word if you choose. They have a right to prohibit such behavior by their students, on campus, off campus or on the Internet.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: State Constitutions can be broader than the U.S. Constitution


Author:
Diogenes ((Asia Sunset))
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Date Posted: 13:47:57 12/16/16 Fri

Asia, behavioral standards are one thing. Fighting, drinking, destruction of property etc. Those standards have their roots in the criminal law and common law standards of good behavior, negligence, trespass, assault etc.

Speech codes and Stasi/Orwellian/Gestapo-like prying, spying, suppression and enforcement tactics are other things entirely.

N'est ce pas?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: State Constitutions can be broader than the U.S. Constitution


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 14:40:12 12/16/16 Fri

This has nothing to do with criminal behavior or common law.

It involves defining acceptable behavior in diverse private communities.

And there is no evidence it surfaced as a result of spying or anything Orwellian on the part of Princeton. You have to be a moron to think anything on the internet is really private. Employers routinely google prospective hires and check their Facebook pages etc. So do college admissions officers.

If anybody used racial slurs or degraded women at my country club and someone who was offended filed a grievance, there would likely be a hearing leading to suspension or removal. It's written right in our by laws. They don't need to assault anyone or commit a crime.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Speech versus Behavior


Author:
Diogenes (Asia Sunset)
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Date Posted: 15:52:51 12/16/16 Fri

Speech can become behavior. Behavior can become speech. A good example of that is a protest against a speaker. The protest, no matter what is said, is protected speech. When the protestors drive the speaker from the stage and prevent the speaker from speaking, the protected speech becomes improper behavior.

As you point out, the use of the internet raises difficult issues. However, non-criminal private speech, intended as such, should not be subject to penalty. Put another way, privately expressed thoughts cannot be regulated or penalized by anyone, public or private. This should be particularly true at an institution theoretically devoted to the teaching and practice of free thought and expression.

The "outing" of the private speech of male athletes should not strip that speech of its private speech protection.

Your country club example is inapposite because the speaker willingly and knowingly agreed when joining the non-federally funded club to be disciplined or expelled for speech or behavior which a certain group of members found inappropriate.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: State Constitutions can be broader than the U.S. Constitution


Author:
Lover of defense
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Date Posted: 10:02:29 12/19/16 Mon

Asia, you have it 100% correct. As a former in house attorney at a private institution, your analysis is spot on.

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