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Subject: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 08:51:40 02/08/17 Wed

Well not exactly a full-blown dis, but definitely a hint of shade.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2017/02/07/nfl-analyst-makes-the-case-for-joe-gibbs-over-bill-belichick-as-greatest-coach/?utm_term=.38753ca162eb

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[> Subject: Same basic argument against Phil Jackson


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:00:40 02/08/17 Wed


"Yeah, I would have won a bunch of titles if I had Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq/Gasol too."

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Sr Punter
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Date Posted: 13:54:02 02/08/17 Wed

and Lombardi would never have won a championship without Bart Starr.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 16:48:36 02/08/17 Wed

While I love listening to Ross Tucker and feel he is a fabulous NFL analyst, his comments leave out some very relevant information. His comparison of Joe Gibbs to Bill Belichick coaching abilities places too much emphasis solely on the importance of the quarterback. Yes, Brady is the best QB ever and this is the most important position of the field. Yet, Ross Tucker does not make any mention of the relative strengths of the balance of the Redskins compared to the Patriots teams. Other than the QB position, Gibbs clearly was able to coach with superior players for the balance of his teams. Gibbs coached four Hall of Fame players (John Riggins, Art Monk, Russ Grimm, and Darrell Green) with Joe Jacoby expected to be elected to the HOF soon. Despite playing in seven Super Bowls, it is not clear if any Patriots other than Brady will make the HOF other than Randy Moss who only played one and a half season with the Pats and possibly Ty Law. Thus, you could make the argument that these teams were fairly comparable overall.

There is no comparison when judging their coaching records and results. Gibbs coached the Redskins for 16 years averaging 9.6 wins and 5.9 losses, making the playoffs 10 times, and punching the ticket to 3 Super Bowls (winning each time). In contrast, Belichick has coached the Patriots for 17 years averaging 11.8 wins and only 4.2 losses, making the playoffs 14 times, and punching the ticket to 7 Super Bowls (winning 5 times). Most importantly, Gibbs benefitted from being a coach during the non-salary cap era for his first 12 season, including all 3 of his Super Bowl teams. It would have been much tougher to keep all those HOF players together during a Salary Cap era. When analysts discuss Belichick and his coaching record, they frequently mention how remarkable his consistency and excellence achieved are in the Salary Cap era. What Belichick got out of his entire team is remarkable.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 18:08:00 02/08/17 Wed

Good points.

Another factor is that Brady was likely the beneficiary of extreme luck in two SB games that he should have lost (Seattle and Atlanta), and that for an extended period the Patriots have played in a very weak division giving them not just virtually guaranteed playoff eligibility and fewer playoff games needed to get to the SB, but also reliable home field advantage in those games.

But regardless Belichik would be my clear choice over Gibbs.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 22:44:48 02/08/17 Wed

As a long time Bills and Giants fan, I absolutely hate the Patriots, but Bill Belichik is definitely one of the best NFL coaches of all time up there with Vince Lombardi. For example, this year he picked up an under utilized WR from the Bills, Chris Hogan who barely made the team a few years ago and turned him into an NFL star. Chris Hogan was an average WR at Buffalo at best, but with New England he has shown tremendous improvement, which is a sign of great coaching. Most NFL teams probably would have screwed up Brady's progression as well as he was a part-time starter at Michigan. Once again Bill Belichik turned him into a super star! Kind of like how Vince Lombardi took a back up QB in college to an All Pro by the name of Bart Starr.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 23:42:16 02/08/17 Wed

There was a time when one could argue that Belichick, even with three Super Bowl rings, was not the best coach in NFL history. That time passed, if not before, then definitely by 10:00 PM last Sunday night.

I also now think that Brady is the best quarterback of all time. Analytically, I don't hold it against either Belichick or Brady that they had each other. It's been a beautiful symbiotic relationship, two great talents coming together to achieve exceptional success.

The one thing that bothers me is that I firmly believe Brady systematically deflated Patriot footballs in the 2014 season, if not for many years previously. That many people believe otherwise rubs me the wrong way because I feel like Brady's gotten away with a fast one in terms of his legacy. But he's the best of all time.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 11:51:13 02/09/17 Thu

Sprint66, your points are spot on. One of Belichick's greatest attributes is how he takes hard working, fundamentally sound, but somewhat less athletic football players and makes them exceptionally good role players that fit his system. This shows both in how players improve under Belichick and how players who leave the Pats in free agency generally do not achieve the same level of success on their new team. Likewise, a more athletic, but less disciplined player, like the Chad (Ochocinco) Johnson experiment in 2011, tend to struggle in this Pats system.

I like your analogy with Coach Lombardi. Another good analogy is with the legendary San Antonio Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich. Pops also gets the best out of his players and maintains a level of excellence over a remarkable long period of time, even when having to overcome key player injuries and having to deal with changing rosters over time.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 20:15:13 02/11/17 Sat

A great book is "When Pride Still Mattered" about Vince Lombardi. A wonderful read whether you're a sports fan or not.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Al's Wingman
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Date Posted: 16:29:02 02/14/17 Tue

The Hoodie would be a much better role model if he was personable, humble and selfless. Those are qualities of great coaches. Being aloof, arrogant and vindictive paints his legacy as being an anti-social, selfish ass.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 16:56:29 02/14/17 Tue

The fine for illegal videotaping doesn't help, either.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:11:38 02/15/17 Wed

I think you have identified a personality trait that afflicts his QB, too. Not hard to see how one would rub off on the other.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:14:08 02/15/17 Wed

This was intended a response to An Observer below.

I'm not narcissistic enough to merit a position in the current administration, no matter how many openings they have.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 20:54:36 02/14/17 Tue

As I said in an earlier thread, I think it's beyond argument now that Belichick is the best coach in the history of the NFL. It was an open question for awhile but there's too much weight now resting on that side of the balance.

But as Al's Wingman said, he's got some kind of unscratchable itch. To him, it's not enough to be a fantastic coach and to be recognized as such. He's got to claim some kind of moral high ground in terms of work ethic and focus on football.

It was pathetic the way he led the chant of "No days off! No days off! No days off!" at the celebration parade. Yeah, yeah, we get it. You work really hard and you demand that all of your people work hard. But football coaches in general work ridiculous schedules and it's not even clear that other coaches don't work harder.

And his line complaining about winning the Super Bowl, "Now we're five weeks behind most of the other teams in this league." You're an ass--le, Bill. That's like the guy who buys a Ferrari and likes to complain to his neighbor, "I get terrible gas mileage."

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[> Subject: Not Belichik, but very funny


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 20:45:37 02/14/17 Tue

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18685611/atlanta-zoo-names-cockroach-patriots-qb-tom-brady

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 13:18:05 02/15/17 Wed

Maybe the general managers deserve some credit? Remember, Belichik didn't do very well in Cleveland. Coaches rise and fall with the quality of their personnel. And with the constant shuffling of staff around the NFL,there is little or nothing Belichik does that isn't known (and adopted or adapted) by the rest of the league.

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[> [> Subject: uhhhh ...


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 14:47:40 02/15/17 Wed

Belichik did a helluva lot better in Cleveland than the collective coaches have done in the 20 years since he left.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: uhhhh ...


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 18:25:41 02/15/17 Wed

Are you talking about the Baltimore Ravens, the franchise Belichik coached, or the current Cleveland Browns, an expansion franchise? (Art Modell fired Belichik as he was moving the club.)

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: uhhhh ...


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 20:20:49 02/15/17 Wed

An "expansion franchise" for 20+ years ..... no more excuses.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: uhhhh ...


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 20:52:36 02/15/17 Wed

The point, which you might have missed, is the current Cleveland club is an expansion franchise for which Belichik never coached, and with which he never was affiliated. You might as well pick the Packers or the Cowboys as your comparison -- neither has anything to do with him as a head coach. Make your point with a franchise he did coach, like the Baltimore Ravens/original Cleveland Browns, if you can.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Stop being so snotty


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 21:01:02 02/15/17 Wed

The POINT .... which you have missed several times here, is that you are being stupid when you archly claim that Bill B. "didn't do very well" when coaching in Cleveland. I am not the only one who has tried (too gently for effect, apparently) to set you straight.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 15:57:18 02/15/17 Wed

In terms of Belichick's tenure at Cleveland, there is a very interesting back story. During his first four years with the Browns, Belechick's teams had made steady progress improving the Browns every year from a 6-10 team in 1991 to an 11-5 playoff team in 1994.

The NFL Network did an excellent documentary story on the 1995 Cleveland Browns when Coach Bill Belichick, his very talented and dedicated staff and his rapidly improving team all were completely blind-sided by Cleveland Browns owner Art Modell in 1995. In the middle of the season on November 6, 1995, owner Art Modell elected to turn this former playoff team into complete turmoil by announcing to relocate the team to Baltimore in 1996 in what is referred to fans as "The Move". This created an enormous distraction and emotional turmoil that basically ruined the 1995 season and reversed all of the prior momentum created by Belichick. After you watch this NFL Network documentary, you will have real empathy for how completely unfair this situation was for this talented coaching staff and their players. For example, the players wanted to hide from the fans during this season and it was hard for anyone to concentrate on football the rest of the season.

If Art Model has at least waited until after the season (like all other NFL owners have done related to city relocations), then Belichick may have been able to salvage the next season. But, as a result of the highly ill-conceived manner that Art Modell elected to handle this mid-season, it essentially killed any chances of the Cleveland Browns becoming a playoff team again in 1995. This was so dumb a Move that I am guessing that if a similar mid-season "Move" was forced upon any of the other legendary coaches, such as Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Bill Parcels, Tom Landry or Joe Gibbs during their NFL coaching careers, they each would have encountered similar devastating impact on their teams.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy league NFL analyst disses Belichik


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 16:34:18 02/15/17 Wed

Initially Belichik was to go with the team to Baltimore. Modell even announced that he would be the coach. But apparently he got cold feet in the offseason and wanted a complete re-boot including a coach who would help establish popularity in Baltimore, and that man was Ted Marchibroda who had coached in Baltimore before, so he fired Belichik.

In fact today is the anniversary of that firing.

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