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Subject: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 14:37:10 02/26/17 Sun

There are a couple of blogs doing great work laying out the scenarios for the Ivy tournament. Putting their results together, it seems that the most important game this coming weekend is Penn hosting Harvard.

If Penn wins, it's likely to be in. If Penn loses, it's likely to be out.

That's an oversimplification because there are what I'll call a variety of low probability scenarios which render that statement incorrect. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that Harvard at Penn is the game which matters the most.

If Harvard beats Princeton on Friday night, the Crimson will be highly motivated on Saturday because they could share the regular season title if Dartmouth then beats Princeton.

But what if Princeton handles Harvard easily on Friday? Then on Saturday night, Harvard only cares about seeding in the tournament. The Crimson would be locked in at #2, but whom would they prefer to be at #4, Penn or Columbia?

If you're Tommy Amaker, is any small part of your consciousness comfortable seeing Penn beat you on Saturday, knowing that you'd rather have Princeton face Penn in the semis? I doubt it, because these guys are all reflexive competitors, but it's food for thought. But Amaker probably prefers a Princeton-Penn semifinal war of attrition which leaves either victor exhausted more than he wants an easier Princeton victory over Columbia. And he has the power to put Penn into the tournament.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
Counsellor
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Date Posted: 18:53:34 02/26/17 Sun

If Penn, Brown and Columbia all end up at 5 and 7 who gets in?

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
CU_88
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Date Posted: 19:08:29 02/26/17 Sun

Columbia has the tie breaker over Penn due to its victory over Harvard.

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Dartmouth's Chances ;-)


Author:
Ivy Patriot
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Date Posted: 19:35:17 02/26/17 Sun

A Dartmouth release after the Yale game said, "With Columbia’s victory over Penn this evening, the Big Green are still mathematically alive for the fourth and final spot at the inaugural Ivy League Tournament. Should Dartmouth knock off Penn and Princeton on the road — something it has done only one time (2009) since the conference first started formal play in 1956-57 — and both the Lions and Quakers lose both games, and Cornell beats Brown but loses to Yale, the Green would be in a three-way tie for fourth with Penn and Columbia. Dartmouth owns the tie breaker in that scenario."

Sounds like a slam dunk ;-D

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[> [> Subject: I'm fairly certain


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 19:49:35 02/26/17 Sun

GG has made more convoluted arguments.

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[> [> [> Subject: At least I make arguments


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:01:41 02/27/17 Mon


Your contributions to the board seem pretty limited to criticizing my posts.

Even the posts you actually agree with.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: I was thinking about the argument


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:33:09 02/27/17 Mon

that we look only at a single game OOC result in comparing Dartmouth's football team to another team instead of using the Sagarin rating, despite reflexively invoking Sagarin as the standard for as long as I can recall.

While I do make other posts despite not feeling compelled to inflict an opinion about everything, as you have said to others, don't respond to posts you don't like them.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Thanks for proving my point again


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:35:14 02/27/17 Mon


Do you have anything else to say?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: This Board Wouldn't Be The Same Without Calvin & Go Green


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 13:13:22 02/27/17 Mon

Blind loyalty, partisanship, erudition and wit--the woof and warp of this Board. Excelsior!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Or as some would call it


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 10:33:58 02/28/17 Tue

The woop and warf.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Or as some would call it


Author:
Diogenes (Calvin)
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Date Posted: 13:19:49 02/28/17 Tue

Be thankful. I spared everyone from "War Whoops and Warfarin".

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Or as some would call it


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 13:35:41 02/28/17 Tue

I'm always thankful for your posts.

Just don't expect tangible evidence of it, like cash. Think instead of the pyschic reward.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Or as some would call it


Author:
Diogenes (Calvin)
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Date Posted: 13:54:40 02/28/17 Tue

Likewise penuriously thankful for your posts, the passage of time seems to blur the rewarding differences between physic and psychic.

The deeper meaning of the agitas surrounding the right to be a 14th seed offered up as a sacrificial victim on national television is something I'm still contemplating.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I was thinking about the argument


Author:
The Lion
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Date Posted: 14:13:43 02/27/17 Mon

Go Lions!

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 07:58:23 02/27/17 Mon

something to note...

all those tourney haters seem to be spending an awful lot of time talking about the final two weeks of a basketball season... which would have eliminated all but two teams entering last weekend under previous rules.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 08:34:24 02/27/17 Mon

Assuming for the moment that this generalization is correct, as compared to comments from previous seasons - I don't think it is a good thing to have extensive comments over the odd results tournament rules can produce.

And I still believe the objective of competitive sports is not to generate internet comments but to determine a winner, which, judging by every post-game comment, seems to be the concern of every commenter here about every team their school puts on the field.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 09:49:12 02/27/17 Mon

Unless a miracle occurs along the level of Patriot's Super Bowl comeback, #2 Harvard will play #3 Yale and #1 Princeton will play #4 Penn or Columbia. Princeton may be first immediate victim of this crazy tournament decision.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
Tiger81
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Date Posted: 10:04:27 02/27/17 Mon

The Ivy Tournament represents a very clear trade-off between rewarding the accomplishments of the winner of the 14-game round robin grind versus stoking the hopes and dreams of the rest of the league to get to the Big Dance by winning a 2-games-in-24-hours crapshoot.

It is interesting to read the comments of Penn fans on the Ivy hoops message board, some of whom are incensed that the arcane tie-breaking rules could allow the last weekend results of the also-also-rans (i.e., the bottom 3 teams) to affect Penn's chances of qualifying for the league tournament. Imagine the injustice if a team that failed to perform during the regular season could somehow undermine the fortunes of a team that won more games! But if that does not happen, the 7-7 Quakers will be playing at home against the likely 14-0 or 13-1 Princeton team that must win the league title twice in order to play in the NCAA's.

That outcome seems to mostly bother Tiger fans, at least this season, but many of us would feel the same way if Penn was the regular season champ. This year Harvard will be the ultimate beneficiaries of the new league tourney since they (probably) can get to the league finals without having to play the Quakers on their court and get a second bite at the apple to be awarded the Ivy's automatic bid.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 10:55:18 02/27/17 Mon

Interesting that the women have a lookalike tournament where it's becoming more and more likely that Princeton's only chance to go to the NCAA's will be via the tourney.

But - that tourney has a lot of intrique that's building. Penn's Sydney Stipanovich hasn't regained form since injuring an ankle. This helped Yale knock off Penn two weekends ago. Yale just beat a strong Harvard team this past weekend and the Tigers dumped one to a pretty good Cornell team. So - the women's tourney could be wide open and this season is certainly still alive and very relevant for a number of teams.

Under the old rules, it would be over for 6 teams with only Princeton having a longshot chance to catch Penn.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 18:56:48 02/27/17 Mon

This Tiger fan has opposed a post-season Ivy tournament as a one bid League ever since the subject has been discussed here, quite a few years ago. That includes through the more than a few years where our only shot at the NCAAs was a post-season.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 08:27:43 02/28/17 Tue

Hi Bengal
As a Tiger grad and fan, let me suggest another way to look at this.
First of all, whoever gets in isn't going to go very far. Once in a while an Ivy team will upset another higher rated team in the first round, but that's it.

Second-it adds to the excitement at the end of the year and gives us more Ivy League basketball (which I love).

Lastly, if you assume Princeton doesn't win out, they will certainly get a bid from the NIT where they will have a chance to make some noise.

Just a different way to look at it.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Tournament Motivation: Harvard at Penn


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 13:51:18 02/28/17 Tue

Thanks, Jerrylh; I enjoy your posts.

There are trade-offs, and this is admittedly all a matter of opinion. You are right, there are more teams with a stake in the end of season Ivy games than otherwise. And as soon as one person goes through the turnstile at the Palestra for the tourney and flips on the espn coverage (it will be interesting to see how big/small that audience is), there is more visibility. Neither, in my opinion, justifies denying the League regular season winner of a bid for reasons I explained earlier.

As I have said for a long time, there are ways for Ivy administrations to boost the quality of their basketball teams under the rules. One school, north of us, decided to do just that.

The NIT, certainly for some time, IMO, is a not a worthy substitute for an NCAA bid. And if it is, why is that not incentive for at least some Ivy teams in a given year to keep playing to the end of the season with a post-season goal in mind?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: YMMV, but


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:28:01 02/28/17 Tue


Everyone agree that if you're going to go one-and-done, better to do so in the NCAA rather than the NIT.

Less obvious is a big run in the NIT against a one-and-done in the NCAA.

I was at the 1999 NIT quarterfinal between Princeton and Xavier. Princeton sure looked like they were having fun, whereas Penn got bounced (again) in the NCAA the previous week. It really would have been something if Princeton had won in Cincinnati to advance to New York, but they came up a bit short...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: YMMV, but


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 15:22:40 02/28/17 Tue

With the subsequent enlargement of the NCAA field, and the lower criteria for participating in the NIT, though, far better to have run the table in 1975. I am glad you enjoyed the Xavier game in '99, but....1975, at the mecca of eastern college hoops. That was the NIT tourney to follow!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Will take your word for it!


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:51:48 02/28/17 Tue


I was in pre-school in 1975. :)

All that being said, even if Princeton somehow blows it in the Ivy tourney, chances are pretty good that the Tigers will still be playing a week after the Ivy NCAA rep (whoever that may be) gets bounced.

If not two weeks.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Will take your word for it!


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 16:11:37 02/28/17 Tue

Blows it in the Ivy tourney? We have shown in the recent past we can blow it in the regular season, which is not over yet this year.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Will take your word for it!


Author:
Old Tiger
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Date Posted: 13:44:51 03/01/17 Wed

Good point.

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