VoyForums

VoyUser Login optional ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 12345678910 ]
Subject: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
holtsledge
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 16:15:09 03/11/17 Sat

I find it hard to believe that Dartmouth's Evan Boudreaux was only named to the 2nd team. He finished second in scoring and first in rebounding despite being double teamed all yr long because he was the only legit player on the team. I think he had something like 12 double doubles

Come on Man

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Go Green
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:35:34 03/11/17 Sat


If you go to the Ivy board, there will be plenty of guys expressing the same opinion.

According to mrjames, Boudreaux's advanced stats were bad. Something like low scoring average per attempts made over X minutes when your team is behind. Apparently the Ivy coaches really care about that.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Ivy Patriot
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:48:51 03/20/17 Mon

Advanced metrics may be a differentiator AFTER the eye test. Boudreaux won the eye test so convincingly that the metrics shouldn't be a factor. Anyone who watched him play (a word that should be replaced by "work" in his case) could see he belongs on the first team. Go ahead and ask the Ivy coaches if they were starting a team and could pick five players if he'd be one of them and you can get he would.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
M3
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:50:50 03/20/17 Mon

Boudreaux deserved 1st team

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Boudreaux AVERAGED a double double in Ivy play


Author:
Diogenes
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 19:34:04 03/20/17 Mon

AVERAGED 18.8 points and 10 rebounds per game over the 14 Ivy games.

There is no one better in the Ivy League.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: According to Mr James, Ernie Banks shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame


Author:
Diogenes
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 21:41:55 03/20/17 Mon


[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Maybe I'm misreading him, but...


Author:
Go Green
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:27:04 03/21/17 Tue


I'm not sure he's offering his own personal view that the coaches got it right. I think he's providing an explanation as to why the vote went down the way it did.

Either way, I disagree. Hopefully EB and the rest of the guys come out and win more so not to give the coaches more excuses to deny EB the respect he deserves.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Re: According to Mr James, Ernie Banks shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame


Author:
mrjames
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:14:35 03/21/17 Tue

It is my personal view as well based on how he played this past season. Though I see him projecting as a preseason First Teamer next year.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
mrjames
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:00:01 03/20/17 Mon

If Boudreaux were one of the first five players Ivy coaches would take, they'd have probably voted him as one of the top six players in the league this season.

This year's Dartmouth crew was only the second team in the past five years to finish in the 300s. The current Ivy League is ridiculously talented - the most talented that it's been in the Academic Index era. It's hard to imagine that the best player (or even a top five player) in the Ivy was on the second-worst team in the past five years. You don't have to win big to make First Team, but you can't be on one of the worst teams in recent history. The counting stats just don't seem as impressive in that context.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
Go Green
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:22:05 03/20/17 Mon


King Felix won the Cy Young while playing for a team that lost 100 games.

DeMarcus Cousins' Kings teams were awful.

There's no shortage of Hall of Famers/All Stars who were stuck on bad teams for long portions of their careers...

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
mrjames
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08:59:18 03/21/17 Tue

To be clear, I am not saying that Evan shouldn't have been 2nd team. I'm merely trying to demonstrate what those who believe he should have been a POY candidate and a lock 1st teamer are missing. Like it or not, but when you have a team finish around 50 in Pomeroy and one finish around 100 in Pomeroy, those players are going to be deemed better than even the best player on a 300s team. Again, not a 200-250, below average team, but a 300s awful team. Putting up impressive counting stats when your defense is suspect isn't going to net you first team. Coaches are too sophisticated now to just rubber stamp a context-less double-double average.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
observer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 09:51:46 03/21/17 Tue

It must be said though: without counting stats, there are no ratio/analytical stats. You can't do advanced analytics on the eye test.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
mrjames
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:06:42 03/21/17 Tue

Not so much anymore. It indeed used to be that advanced stats were merely contextualized box score stats, adjusted for rates and pace. Now, however, there are a bevy analytical metrics that are based on play-by-play crunching that would never appear in a box score and with the advent of player tracking cameras, many metrics based on things that don't even appear in the play-by-play. Coaches have assistants that are charting many of these same metrics in the absence of those player tracking cameras. The explosion of metrics has specifically grown on the defensive end.

Things have gotten a lot more sophisticated than linear weights being applied to box score stats to determine player output via regression analysis. While coaches vary in their level of sophistication and use of such metrics (and how they combine them with their film study), folks on their staff are certainly aware of them and they're prevalent enough that players aren't as known anymore just by their counting stat numbers.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
observer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:38:33 03/21/17 Tue

Charting = Counting.

Counting stats are still important.

At the end of the day, you win by scoring more points, not by getting more deck burns or actualizing help rotations.

Not arguing that gross points are the only metric that counts for player evaluation, but to deny their importance is just as asinine as to suggest that "athleticism" is more important than "skill".

It all matters.

Would Boudreaux rack up 20-10 for Princeton? No. Would he be a good player in their system? Who knows. Is he a lesser player because he didn't have Amir Bell, Devin Cannady, Myles Stephens and Stephen Weisz on his side of the ball as opposed to being on the other team - absolutely not.

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Cook and Weisz shouldn't be evaluated as superior because their teammates on aggregate were more talented; Boudreaux shouldn't be penalized because he was clearly the best player on a bad team.

Obviously, Dan Marino is a worse quarterback than Jim Plunkett. And Patrick Ewing was a much worse basketball player than Robert Horry. etc. etc. etc.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Interesting, but I don't think that will pacify EB fans


Author:
mrjames
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 14:31:12 03/21/17 Tue

Funny you should mention Rob Johnson, because I lived in Jacksonville at that time, and I remember Jacksonville deciding whether to sign or trade Rob. They ultimately traded him, since they realized they'd stick with Brunell.

I do a ton of work on advanced metrics on my own - enough to demonstrate that he's not a first teamer, but you're right that I don't know exactly what each staff is looking at.

What's also weird about this whole argument is that I think that we're missing the context on what it means to be a Top 10 player in this league. Devin Cannady and Matt Howard would be first teamers a decade ago, and they were honorable mention this year. A decade ago, the season Evan put together is probably unanimous first team. The league is just WAY better, and the talent level is ridiculously high. Being a Top 10 player as a freshman and sophomore is pretty incredible. And I fully expect him to be a first team player next year.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Mr. James' Metrics and Rob Johnson


Author:
Diogenes (mrjames)
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:54:42 03/21/17 Tue

Your posts are always well reasoned and much appreciated.

Except as you've described them, I'm not familiar with many of the metrics which you say favor others and disfavor Boudreaux. Accordingly, not knowing the actual comparative results of those metrics, I can't comment on them and will have to take your word for it.

On the other hand, I have the feeling that you don't know the exact results of those comparative metrics and, instead, are simply assuming that the metrics disfavor Boudreaux because some coach, or coaches, did not favor him with a First Team vote. Is that a fair assumption?

Many today have forgotten Rob Johnson and his metrics. He was a QB from USC who signed with the Bills for $25,000,000 after he blew up the NFL Combine with his "metrics".

Johnson ran faster, jumped higher, jumped further, did the cones and other drills better, was more accurate and had better velocity than any other QB. He was articulate, poised, intelligent and handsome. He had no bad habits and all the girls loved him. There was only one thing wrong with Johnson: he wasn't a very good NFL football player. Although he could take a hit and didn't flinch from contact, he couldn't play the game and see the field at NFL speed. Great metrics, great guy, no football. Bye, bye $25,000,000. Bye, bye metrics.

Boudreaux has pre-eminent traditional stats. What doesn't show up in those stats is that, unlike many stars, he is a fine teammate and plays within the designed offenses and defenses. That counts for a lot and, so far as I know, is not measured by any metric.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: EB got screwed but that's the least of our problems


Author:
Jorge
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:08:45 03/22/17 Wed

We started the year at 233; ended at 304. That's the story of this year. It was an awful step back after grinding forward in the rankings and win column for the previous 5.

EB got totally shafted and I don't buy any of the arguments about Advanced Statistics. Sounds like it must be a popularity contest, and all the other coaches in the league didn't like EB (because he is such a beast and a bastard in a way that Dartmouth basketball needs).

If EB didn't get first team this year when he was as much of a shoe-in as anyone could imagine, whose to say he will he get it next year? Unfair and sad, but I'm less concerned with individual awards as I am with the program unnecessarily being blown up.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
jerrylh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 21:29:18 03/20/17 Mon

I'm a Princeton guy. I saw Boudreau and Cook many times. In all honesty, Cook should have been 2nd team and Boudreaux first team. In my humble opinion, I thought that Boudreaux was as good as anyone in the Ivy League.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
DartBBALLFan
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:58:51 04/19/17 Wed

Interesting thread. Just seeing this now. Mr. James and his stats cross a few boards. Funny how he always mentions EB's defense. Does Mr. James know anything about what is expected of EB on the court? Does he know what the coach has told him to do in each and every game? Turns out that I'm close to a coach and I DO know what he's told every game: DON'T FOUL OUT. So what does that mean to Mr. James? He's not a good defender. Because he can't take chances like blocking shots or slapping at balls while guys are dribbling. There is no one behind him that comes close to him talent wise. He plays good/great defense all game, taking charges, stopping big men from scoring, etc. Mr James, are you aware of any Ivy Big Man that scored more points and rebounded more than EB did head to head this year? My recollection: NONE. Did any Ivy team, with double and triple teams on him every game because he was their only good player, ever stop him? No they didn't. So these coaches vote a player that they cannot stop (Steve Donahue even admitted it in an interview) second team, while a guard for Harvard THAT DIDN'T EVEN START and had far less "counting stats" than EB (Aiken shot 37.7% vs EB 50.3% in IVY PLAY, and EB was 39.2% from 3pt range while Aiken was 32.6% in IVY PLAY. EB's rebounding far outweighed anything else Aiken did on the court averaging 10 reb/g in IVY PLAY, and EB killed him in PPG) did makes first team? Oh, must be cause his team won more games :-/. Oh, and EB just got named the best pick and pop player in the country based on a tweet I saw from DMBB twitter.

Scott Waterman Retweeted
Synergy Sports Tech‏ @SynergySST Apr 12

Here is a final look at the most productive pick & pop threats in the college game this season.


Obviously some people in the know and coaches voting conveniently missed that advanced stat. EB did get screwed, and over his career, his counting stats will blow those other guys away. And Mr. James, your bias towards EB is obvious. I would hope in the future instead of pointing out what you see are his failings for 2 years running, try posting positive stats (his defensive rebounding % is one of the top in the country...crickets from you on that one). His 15 Double Doubles are in the top 35 in NCAA D1. Don't see you bragging about that. Haven't seen much from you other than "he's a second teamer and he doesn't play defense and he's not a POY candidate". Great. Now if we can just get a few good players, maybe mr james will find something positive to say.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: POY


Author:
holtsledge
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 12:32:54 04/20/17 Thu

should have been Speith according to a well informed ivy watcher and a man of keen intellect and knowledge and trust me I qualify in neither of those 2 categories

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: A Debate Between Debating Champions


Author:
Upper Valley
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 13:08:03 04/20/17 Thu

DartBBALLFan is using an old but sometimes effective debating strategy: The "I've got personal inside information that you cannot possibly be in a position to refute" argument.

That DartBBALLFan is using this old tactic against Mike James is deliciously ironic. Mike is the originator of the "I've got personal inside information on every Ivy player's AI score" argument. Mike pulls out that argument every time that anybody challenges or even simply asks questions about the academic qualifications of the Harvard basketball team.

Good luck, DartBBALLFan and Mike James, arguing with your personal inside information that none of the rest of us can possibly refute.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Dr V
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:50:00 04/20/17 Thu

That parts of the all Ivy voting this year were confused? skewed? just plain wrong? was confirmed by the selection of Weisz as POY. Weisz was a wonderful system player who did many different things on the court, all of which contributed to his team's wonderful season, but in the Ivy tourney he was 3/11 for 7 points in the semis against Penn and a glowing 3/13 in the finals against Yale for 9 points. This is the POY? Is there some advanced metric that explains why this was a good performance despite those stats? If so, please help me out here.

Not sure why it seems to be so difficult to distinguish between individual and team performances. To state the obvious, they are related, but given that it has long been everybody's practice to distinguish between team recognition and individual recognition, it doesn't make sense to conflate the two. Princeton's recognition was its championship and its record, and the knowledge and future memory of each player on that team that he was a part of an exceptional season. That's what you get for being on that team. That does not mean that you should also get individual awards because you were on that team, although it also doesn't mean that you should be disqualified from an individual award just because you've already received the "award" of being on a championship team. So Mitch clearly deserves COY for his championship season despite having lost two starters, and Stevens clearly deserves his accolades. But Weisz over Boudreau for first team is ridiculous.

Dartmouth, with all due respect to our Green fans, was terrible this year. Last in scoring offense, second to last in scoring defense, last in TO margin etc. On that team Boudreau was the league's second leading scorer and, and this is the part that sealed it for me, he was the league's leading rebounder by a whopping margin: he had 10 per Ivy game, the next player had 7.7, the third 7.0 etc. Since we choose to distinguish between individual and team "awards," there was no rational excuse for not having chosen Boudreau first team and for having chosen Weisz first team. Or perhaps we should just award the starting five on the championship team the first team all Ivy honor.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Calvin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 12:07:50 04/20/17 Thu

Supposedly Weisz was the glue on the court that held the championship together so as to get the championship, as much as the coach, if I understand the argument correctly. If true, a factor not to be underestimated and honestly a better "metric" for an mvp type of award than mere stats. Depends on how one defines MVP criteria, which is the eternal debate in pro sports.

But otherwise your points are well taken, especially not conflating team accomplishments with individual awards.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
observer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 12:22:52 04/20/17 Thu

Weisz' winning of the award had everything to do with the fact that he had more talented (and more-talented) teammates than Boudreaux, not any mystical adhesive properties. The same could be said of Nwokedi over Zimmerman on the women's side.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: and yes


Author:
holtsledge
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 12:35:46 04/20/17 Thu

and yes it is a travesty that Boudreaux wasn't 1st team

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Jerrylh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 13:16:32 04/20/17 Thu

If Broudreaux had played for Princeton this year he would have been
POY in my humble opinion

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Old Lion (a winning record)
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 13:47:06 04/20/17 Thu

Case in point: Maodo Lo was beaten out his last two years even though a decent argument could have been made that he should have been POY, at least for his senior year. (He and Sears were the only unanimous first team all Ivy players). Certainly Lo in both of those years far outperformed Boudreaux's past year. But we had 10 league wins and Yale (with Sherrod and Mason as well as POY Sears) had 12 or 13.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Weisz Picked As Team Co-POY


Author:
Franklin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:02:35 04/24/17 Mon

I'm not here to argue in favor of or against Spencer Weisz as player of the year. But I observe that, in many conferences, each coach nominates only one of his players for consideration by the rest of the league coaches as POY. So when all the coaches vote, they are already receiving the input of the nominees' respective coaches that each was the most valuable player on his own roster.

I have no idea whether the Ivies follow this procedure, but I notice that Henderson chose as the co-recipients of Princeton's internal player of the year award Spencer Weisz and, interestingly, Amir Bell.

My point here is that Henderson himself chose Weisz as co-POY on a team which went 16-0 in the league. That's a pretty good reference to have on your resume when conference voting begins.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Sr Punter
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:30:12 04/20/17 Thu

It seems to me that this discussion has gone off the rails. Despite the apparent opinions of the Keggies, neither popular opinion, nor fan votes, nor the media, nor the statheads, nor even the esteemed Mile James, select the All-Ivy Team. I believe it is the league's Coaches, who are not allowed to vote for their own players. I they have a charge as to how they should vote, I am not aware of it. Therefore, complain to Amaker, Donahue, Martin, Henderson, Jones and the others for disrespecting EB. I,for one, think the guys and their staffs, who spend hours and hours watching films and game planning, my know even more than MJ about who is deserving of POY and All-Ivy consideration. Spring is almost reaching Hanover. Get over it.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Except...


Author:
Go Green
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:39:51 04/20/17 Thu


Dartmouth guys howled for months after Williams was passed over for first team All Ivy and POY in 2015.

Guess what happened the following year? A Dartmouth guy got POY.

:)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Dr. V
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:48:31 04/21/17 Fri

I'm neither a Dartmouth fan nor a Keggie, whatever that is. That a plurality or majority of some cohort voted a certain way makes it official, not necessarily right, wise or appropriate. Recall last fall's election.

Although there has always been some tension in all sports re what "MVP" means or should mean, the best player? a very good player who although not the best player in the sport or league nonetheless made a crucially important contribution to a championship season?, all star team choices are universally made on the basis of the best players regardless of team. That's why this year's exclusion of EB from the first team doesn't make sense.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]


VoyUser Login ] Not required to post.
Post a public reply to this message | Go post a new public message
* HTML allowed in marked fields.
* Message subject (required):

Name (required):

  Expression (Optional mood/title along with your name) Examples: (happy, sad, The Joyful, etc.) help)

  E-mail address (optional):

* Type your message here:


Notice: Copies of your message may remain on this and other systems on internet. Please be respectful.

[ Contact Forum Admin ]


Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2016 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.