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Subject: Princeton ND out west


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 20:18:52 03/12/17 Sun

not a basketball guy so no clue
what do you say sparman
ND is a 5?

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Replies:
[> Subject: Game is in Buffalo


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 20:46:29 03/12/17 Sun

ND a big favorite, but surely with all that tournament experience for Tigers it could be a close game. Then either your Mountaineers or Bucknell. They won't go out west until the following weekend at the Regionals.

Not gonna go far if they don't shoot better for a whole game than they did this weekend. Unfortunately ND is not the kind of team to just assume they are better athletes and fail to take the game seriously.

Still, I would rather be playing in Buffalo than one of the loser secondary tournaments.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Game is in Buffalo PS


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 20:49:27 03/12/17 Sun

Game is 12:15 Thursday, so we will know very soon.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
bulldog10jw
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Date Posted: 20:46:48 03/12/17 Sun

Princeton can win this game. Notre Dame is good, obviously, but not a dominant team. Princeton's D will give them trouble.......I hope.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
bulldog10jw
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Date Posted: 15:05:17 03/16/17 Thu

Amending my remark above.

Princeton could have won this game.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 22:18:47 03/12/17 Sun

One of the several ESPN shows just spent one entire segment on the fact that 12 seeds are a remarkable 10-10 against 5 seeds over the past five years.

They then reviewed which of this year's 12 seeds is the best bet to spring an upset. Each of the three analysts agreed that Princeton is by far the least likely 12 to win. Last analyst summarized by saying that "You can't set a big enough spread for this game." Ouch. I hope that the Tiggers make these guys look silly.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 22:26:18 03/12/17 Sun

I was watching the same ESPN analysis. The Ivy League has won 5 tournament games since 2010 but the league still gets no respect. The Ivy League is sending its best to face Notre Dame. Hopefully Princeton will represent the league as well as Harvard. Cornell and Yale have done in the recent past. Go Tigers!

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[> [> Subject: Well...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 22:50:26 03/12/17 Sun


Pretty much everyone was predicting a 13 seed for Princeton at the end of the season, and they got a 12.

That's *some* respect... isn't it?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Well...


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 23:01:17 03/12/17 Sun

If Yale was a 12 seed last year at 13-1 then Princeton should have been at least that at 16-0. Also no NIT bids for either Harvard or Yale. Harvard beat Houston on the road and Houston got a NIT bid. Penn beat UCF on the road and UCF got a bid. No respect.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Well...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 18:59:12 03/16/17 Thu


You have to look at the entire body of work.

The 1997-98 Princeton team went 14-0 in the Ivy and was a #5 seed. Of course, they were something like 27-1 overall at the time.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
mrjames
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Date Posted: 06:32:26 03/13/17 Mon

Princeton is roughly the 6th or 7th most likely double-digit seed to pull the upset and 2nd most likely 12 in the objective metrics.

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[> [> Subject: The Two-By-Two Matrix


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 08:51:57 03/13/17 Mon

I figure the two teams are fairly similar, considering that ND was in the running for a 3, 4 or 5 seed. They both rely heavily on the three-point shot and don't focus on a traditional inside game. So, like many college basketball games, this might devolve into a three-point shooting contest.

It's a two-by-two matrix. If ND hits from outside and Princeton doesn't, blow out. If both or neither hit, it will be a close game, but ND has the advantage. If Princeton is hot from outside and can defend the perimeter as well as they did in the league, we get the upset.

I guess that's one thing I don't like about the Golden State/Steph Curry direction that basketball in general is headed. It's become a three-point shooting contest and games devolve into a two-by-two matrix.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:01:46 03/13/17 Mon

Why don't you explain how slam dunk contests are great for the game? The beauty of the inside/outside game is in the passing, ball movement, spacing and flow. When the three occurs (especially the open three) it's because of the prep work.

The impressive part of the very complete Princeton offensive game this year is not the threes, but leading the country in fewest turnovers while having a high proportion of assists on their field goals.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 11:24:48 03/13/17 Mon

Agree with everything you say, joisey. My point is that, after all that you describe about getting an good look, two well schooled and well prepared teams have worked hard to find the open man behind the arc. They've each succeeded, because they're that good.

Now they've got open guys taking excellent shots. Sometimes they go in, sometimes they don't. Sometimes open guys will shoot 50% from the arc, sometimes they will shoot 10%. That has nothing to do with how well scouted and well prepared they had to be get the open looks.

After all that, now you've got a three-point shooting contest. Prior to that, it was a strategic contest to see who could get the better shots, just as you describe.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 11:06:32 03/22/17 Wed

Joisey, it gives me little satisfaction to say this as I was really rooting for Princeton to pull off the upset, but I think it's fair to conclude, "I told you so."

Your Tigers played very well, spreading the floor and moving the ball to the open man. They got great open shots. Indeed, at half time, TBS analyst Kenny Smith said that he thought Princeton could come back for the win because, "Notre Dame is getting good shots. Princeton is getting great shots."

Despite all of the Tigers' fine work to create excellent shots, Princeton just missed too many wide open looks from three.

I don't know what percentage Princeton shot from behind the arc, but it must have been about 25% or less. As I opined last week, Princeton got into a three-point shooting contest. Only the twist was that Princeton got into a three-point shooting contest with itself, and lost.

How fitting that Princeton ultimately lost on a missed open three-point shot.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 12:41:35 03/22/17 Wed

If you're saying the strategy was great but the execution was off (true), I agree. If you're saying anything more, I don't get it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 14:53:05 03/22/17 Wed

Joisey, you read me correctly. Your paraphrase is on target: The Princeton strategy was great, but the execution was off.

Specifically, the execution was only off insofar as, having worked hard and effectively to create good shots from behind the arc, the Tigers simply missed way too many wide open looks.

That was my point, with the Princeton/Notre Dame/Golden State approach to reliance on three-point shots so much in vogue, sometimes two teams can be roughly equally effective in creating open shots. Then the game devolves into a three-point shooting contest, as guys either have the hot hand or, in Princeton's case, the cold one.

We tend to glorify Cornell's Sweet Sixteen run 2010 and of course it was a high water mark in recent League history. But the Big Red shot lights out from behind the arc. Those guys probably couldn't recreate that level of accuracy on a recurring basis since they shot well above their season average. Like I said, it was a three-point shooting contest and Cornell was in the preferred quadrant of the two-by-two matrix.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
Anonymous
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Date Posted: 13:05:24 03/22/17 Wed

Did the overreliance on three pointers cost them the game? Strong arguments can be made on both sides

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
Diogenes.
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Date Posted: 13:36:48 03/22/17 Wed

FWIW, my two cents is that Princeton's coach(s) out coached Notre Dame. Neither team shot the lights out. Either team could have won that game. Notre Dame had better players, but not by much. Princeton played better as a team.

Of even more interest, Princeton was 16-0 in the Ivies. Completely dominated the League, but couldn't beat a #5 Regional seed. What does that say about the overall strength of the Ivy basketball?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 14:08:22 03/22/17 Wed

Regarding general strength of top teams, not too much. Yale (2016 v. Baylor) and Harvard (2014 v. Cincinnati) both won first round games as 12th versus 5th seeds, and neither was 16-0 during the regular season. Princeton shot below average for them. Three point reliance will do that to you.

Now, there's no question the bottom of the league is definitely weak.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
Diogenes (Calvin)
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Date Posted: 14:32:53 03/22/17 Wed

You are right about the weakness of the bottom of the League. Unfortunately, in an eight team league, the bottom of the league consists of five teams. Penn finished fourth and lost twice to Dartmouth as well as having a losing overall record.

Three teams tied for last with 4-10 Ivy records and overall losing records (Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth). Columbia lost to Dartmouth and finished fifth with losing Ivy and overall records.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sadly


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 17:29:31 03/22/17 Wed

I can think of someone who will soon argue these teams did not finish last, they were sixth, as though they have thereby avoided the DFL ignominy.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: But mrjames assures us


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 19:17:14 03/22/17 Wed


That beating Penn at the Palestra is just like beating Stanford or Seton Hall on a neutral court.

Huzzah!!!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Please see my earlier post


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:16:47 03/23/17 Thu

Of bunny with pancake.

And find out who is making you read all these posts you object to.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: And see mine


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:21:01 03/23/17 Thu


About your needing another hobby.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: My hobby


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 12:21:03 03/23/17 Thu

is correcting your misstatements. There's no end in sight, but it's a good cause, and I don't have to worry about billing clients for time spent on the internet.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sad


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 13:08:50 03/23/17 Thu


As that Boston Globe article noted about guys like you, its never too late to try to get a life.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: GG,Cal and Sparman


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 14:38:28 03/23/17 Thu

I am more than willing to offer my services as a mediator for a modest sum. Several dozen Pro V's or perhaps a bottle of Johnnie Blue. I am sure I can bring you all together after all we are all brothers here. My wife says that I am not argumentative at all, I only yell at the TV a couple of times a day. Plus I just got rid of all my frustrations by going to the indoor range and shooting off couple hundred rounds thru my new S&W Model 27, a very sweet revolver
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-27

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: GG,Cal and Sparman


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 21:57:06 03/25/17 Sat

Leave me out of this. But I will put up a sleve of Snells next time we play.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Two-By-Two Matrix I TOLD YOU SO


Author:
mrjames
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Date Posted: 20:53:12 03/22/17 Wed

I wouldn't lump Penn into that discussion. It finished No. 171 nationally and posted a Tier A win at UCF. While Brown, Cornell and Dartmouth all did finish Bottom 100, which is particularly weak for recent years, we're still talking about a league ranked in the teens nationally - as it has been for the entirety of this decade.

My initial model tends to believe that the bottom will be a bit stronger next year, while the top will get a lot stronger. I do fear that will become a trend if recent recruiting continues to follow the same trend.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 10:24:40 03/13/17 Mon

This is the worst possible matchup. ND team made it to the ACC finals and lost a close game to Duke. They split their two games with North Carolina this year. They are smart and well coached, not the undisciplined team that Princeton would have a better shot. If the tigers double team the post, ND will find the free player. This team has several very accurate shooters.

I think that Princeton will keep it close in the first half and then get worn down in the second.
At any rate we can hope.

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[> [> Subject: Tigers must defend Colson


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 16:02:53 03/13/17 Mon

If the tigers can defend Bonzie Colson then they might have a chance to pull an upset. If Bonzie is not hampered by the ankle injury from the Duke game he will be hard to contain and the game will not be close.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 15:49:16 03/16/17 Thu

Enough of a replay of the Tiger fourpeat games of 1989-92 to be eerie. Only thing missing was Alonzo Mourning.

Do Tigers and Crimson each have enough depth to make Ivies a 2-bid conference next year? [It'll be easier to find out if the Ivy tourney isn't at the Palestra.]

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[> Subject: Close Game


Author:
Bulldogs1234
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Date Posted: 15:57:09 03/16/17 Thu

Oh well. No upset this year. Guess the Princeton kids can go back to their tests and whatnot.

Good season. Let's see how Harvard develops their super class next year.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Close Game


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 10:28:03 03/17/17 Fri

No 2nd bid in the cards. Ivy League must schedule and more than just-once-a-year beat teams in the Madness 8-11 seeding range. Upper echelon Ivies are quite capable of competing with squads in that range. Yet competing and winning are two different outcomes.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton ND out west


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 19:26:45 03/16/17 Thu

Nice job Tigers. Almost pulled an impressive upset.

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[> Subject: So close....


Author:
Floridared
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Date Posted: 21:41:01 03/16/17 Thu

Well played game by the Tigers.

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