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Subject: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 12:07:48 03/13/17 Mon

Princeton went undefeated in the Ivies. Princeton also beat Lafayette, Rowan, Hawaii, Liberty, Bucknell, Hampton and Cal Poly.

Princeton lost to BYU, Lehigh, VCU, Cal, St. Joe's and Monmouth.

Notre Dame beat the usual cupcakes and also beat: Northwestern, Colorado, Iowa,
Louisville, Pitt, Clemson, Miami, Virginia Tech, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Florida State, North Carolina State and Boston College.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Decide what?


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:21:58 03/13/17 Mon


That ND should be favored to win?

I don't think you'll get a lot of counterargument.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Should Ivy Basketball be Ivy Hockey/Lacrosse/Soccer or Ivy Football?


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 13:22:00 03/13/17 Mon

Princeton basketball won 16 Ivy games this year. Beat Harvard and Yale 3 times apiece. Totally dominated the Ivy League. However, they lost to Lehigh and Monmouth as well as the only decent teams they played (BYU, Cal, St. Joe's and VCU). Of Princeton's 29 opponents, only VCU made the NCAA's.

By way of contrast, Princeton's lacrosse team blew up Hopkins a few weeks ago when Hopkins was ranked #3. Ivy lacrosse teams are nationally ranked and go deep in the NCAA's (and sometimes win it). Ivy soccer teams play many of the best teams in the country and quite often go several rounds in the NCAA's. Ivy Hockey teams regularly play and do well against the best teams in the country and Yale won the Frozen Four 3 years ago.

For all the hoopla regarding Harvard (unjustified in my opinion), Ivy basketball needs to decide whether it wants to continue being Ivy football or step up to Ivy hockey, lacrosse or soccer.

In the sense that any decent team can beat any other team on any given day, Princeton could beat N.D. and I very much hope they do. Beyond that, if Ivy basketball wants to be one of the big boys, they need to schedule and compete at a big boy level as do the folks in Ivy hockey, lacrosse and soccer.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Should Ivy Basketball be Ivy Hockey/Lacrosse/Soccer or Ivy Football? Tough Row To Hoe


Author:
Franklin
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Date Posted: 15:53:35 03/13/17 Mon

The reason that the Ivies can compete on a national level in lacrosse especially, hockey to an extent, and somewhat less in soccer is that the best players in those sports are closer to the natural demographic of the Ivy student body.

I'm not just talking race, although obviously that is the elephant in the room which everybody wants to avoid. It's also the urban/suburban divide and what middle-class and upper income largely white families have their kids do relentlessly in middle school and high school.

Competing with the big boys in football or basketball requires a completely different institutional commitment to recruiting a large (football) or small (basketball) number of kids who otherwise would be less inclined to wind up on an Ivy campus.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Bulldogs1234
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Date Posted: 12:47:47 03/13/17 Mon

Princeton is a smartly coached, well-coordinated team, but I just don't see an upset happening.

They lost to BYU, VCU, and Cal- Notre Dame is better than any of those three teams.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 13:12:06 03/13/17 Mon

And I believe that ND also beat North Carolina as well.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Diogenes (Jerrylh)
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Date Posted: 13:37:40 03/13/17 Mon

The schedule I looked at had North Carolina beating N.D. 83-76. Perhaps it was wrong or there was another game which I missed.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 15:06:42 03/13/17 Mon

I will look at it again. They played twice and I thought they split the season series.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 15:10:36 03/13/17 Mon

My bad. You are correct

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Diogenes (Jerrylh)
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Date Posted: 15:50:19 03/13/17 Mon

No big deal, thanks for checking.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 13:39:13 03/13/17 Mon

In fairness, I think those losses were early on the season, when Princeton was struggling and trying to get its rotation set, and that they are a much better team now. But it's hard to argue your basic conclusion.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 15:01:28 03/13/17 Mon

Not at all sure where this line of discussion came from. If you want to get rid of the AI, it's worth a thought. Since that's not gonna happen, what's the point?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Diogenes (joiseyfan)
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Date Posted: 16:17:18 03/13/17 Mon

The point is that Ivy basketball and football are self limiting and could be much better if there was a will to improve

Princeton is a fabulous basketball team when judged by Ivy basketball standards. When judged by the standards of those in the NCAA tournament it's a different analysis.

I don't see the AI as an insuperable impediment. Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, USC, UCLA, Cal, Wisconsin, Michigan and others are fine schools with serious basketball teams. The idea that a few of their players could not meet the AI doesn't make sense to me. Is it impossible to recruit one or two serious players to each Ivy team in most years? Princeton has several players who could play at much higher levels--a couple more and a challenging schedule would put them over the top. The same could be said for Harvard and Yale.

Columbia plays in a basketball and media capital. Other than Columbia's lack of desire to have a better team, it's hard to believe that it couldn't recruit a few top drawer players every year.

Aren't there some decent students playing in the A-10 who would jump at a chance to play at the Palestra or in Philadelphia?

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[> [> [> Subject: Ivy BB


Author:
remember it well (Diogenes)
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Date Posted: 17:21:34 03/13/17 Mon

I have never liked the AI (Ivy handicapping system) but like Dio I do not feel it has the same kind of restraining effect on bb as it does on Ivy fb. Wouldn't it be wonderful for Ivy students to be able to experience the same kind of enjoyment from their bb teams as students do at Georgetown and the schools listed by Dio.

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[> [> [> Subject: Believe it


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 20:08:30 03/13/17 Mon


Stanford was operating at Ivy-AI levels during the Teevens and later Mike Montgomery years.

We remember how the teams did in that era.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/HIGHER-STANDARDS-Stanford-teams-finding-it-s-2589894.php

They fired the admissions director, relaxed admissions standards, and PRESTO! The teams got better.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: What happened to Stanford afterwards


Author:
remember it well (GG)
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Date Posted: 21:13:54 03/13/17 Mon

Ranked #5 by US News and #1 by Forbes.
Just imagine what their rankings would be if they didn't "relax" their admission standards.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 18:15:55 03/13/17 Mon

Agree that AI is a serious impediment that did not exist when Ivy football was attracting the likes of Messrs. Hill, Marinaro, Bowden and Williams. No Index blocked the recruiting and enrollment of hoop stars such as Bradley, Petrie and Calhoun. While it is good to pose the question of whether playing at a higher level in the major sports has any impact on the academic reputations of Stanford, Duke et al, we should not forget that the Ivies already have performed that experiment in an earlier era when the above-named stars were playing, with no negative academic effects.

Indeed, one senses that Harvard's recent initiatives, decried by some on this board, were undertaken in response to the daylight that Stanford has recently opened on the Cantabs, replacing them, in many quarters, as the most desirable place to spend four years, due in at least some small part, to the presence of big time sports on The Farm.

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[> [> [> Subject: Memphis Bill Reframes Debate Over Harvard Basketball: WHY Did They Do It? Stanford?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 13:08:10 03/14/17 Tue

It's either a healthy increase in institutional commitment to excellence in a new field; or it's stretching or breaking outright Ivy principles regarding academic standards in athletics; or it's something in between.

In all the discussion about Harvard basketball on this message board, we have not yet covered a very interesting angle. Why did Bob Scalise decide to fire Frank Sullivan in 2007 and completely remake Harvard's century-old relationship with varsity basketball?

I had always assumed that Scalise was simply waiting for Lawrence Summers to retire or get promoted to Treasury Secretary or world dictator, because Scalise knew that Summers would never support what he wanted to do in basketball. When Summers resigned in 2006, Scalise seized the moment, gambling that Drew Gilpin Faust would not care and/or have the personal capital to stop him.

Memphis Bill advances a completely different take. Maybe Harvard had an institutional change of heart driven by growing concern over Stanford's amazing ascent in American higher education.

This is an interesting question because, in this regard, Harvard's "problem with Stanford" is to an extent a problem for all of us. Stanford has reshuffled a pecking order which had been stable for centuries.

To me, there is little question that within, say, two or three decades, Stanford will be the brightest name in higher education, if it is not already. Harvard can read that writing on the wall as well as we can. Further, within the past decade or so, there is not a single undergraduate ranking which ranks Harvard above Princeton. That can't feel good in Massachusetts Hall.

Was the new commitment to basketball an institution decision made at a level above Scalise? It's hard to believe that Faust would have initiated this within months of moving the president's office, but perhaps she signed off on Scalise's plan with this in mind.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Memphis Bill Reframes Debate Over Harvard Basketball: WHY Did They Do It? Stanford?


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 14:39:47 03/14/17 Tue

I am flattered if An Observer thinks that I have "reframed" the debate on this board regarding Harvard's extreme restructuring of its basketball program. My "observations" are based on some years of watching how Harvard operates to protect what it believes is the finest educational brand in the world.

The only inside insight that I have concerning Harvard sports is a friendship with an avid booster of varsity sports, especially football, at the Crimson, who told me when Summers was forced out and replaced by Faust the this was good for the FB program, because "she's a southern girl from a family full of brothers, and she really loves football."

My general thoughts are as follows: as AO has stated, The Big Three are keenly aware of Stanford's coming up on them at about a hundred miles an hour. Just this year, Stanford's endowment surpassed Princeton's, and with
the wealth being created in The Valley, Yale and Harvard will be surpassed in this important metric.

Harvard will fight like hell to prevent its slipping to no. 2 from happening, and having a first rate basketball team, while a small piece of the over-all counterattack, it is part of a package of countermeasures aimed at preserving Harvard's self-imagined supremacy.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Memphis Bill Reframes Debate Over Harvard Basketball: WHY Did They Do It? Stanford?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:11:24 03/14/17 Tue

You have indeed reframed the discussion, Memphis. Reasonable people can disagree about exactly what Harvard has done and whether that action is appropriate, given the unique academic rationale for our conference's existence.

But nobody can argue that Harvard has indeed done *something*. The question of why is natural to ask, especially because the Stanford challenge affects all of us.

Of all the real and potential criticisms leveled at Harvard's behavior, the one which I find most troubling is that Harvard decided to act unilaterally.

Imagine how different Harvard Basketball Presented By Staples Office Supplies would appear and feel to the other seven Ivies if, instead of acting unilaterally, Faust had contacted her seven Ivy peers and said, "Hey, look, as a group we are losing ground to Stanford. I'd like to do something in response. How do you seven folks feel about making a huge commitment to men's basketball?"

That would have been a very different approach to upgrading institutional commitment to basketball. Then it's a conference-wide effort and everybody knows why it's being done, even if not everybody agrees with the decision.

I'd have a world of understanding for Harvard's behavior if it had been done after consulting with the institutions most directly affected, namely, conference opponents.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Memphis Bill Reframes Debate Over Harvard Basketball: WHY Did They Do It? Stanford?


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 17:14:46 03/14/17 Tue

The idea that a woman prexy taking over Larry Summers (who "retired" for the reasons he did) going forward to her peers to suggest investing in MEN'S basketball is a nice touch.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Memphis Bill Reframes Debate Over Harvard Basketball: WHY Did They Do It? Stanford?


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 19:26:59 03/14/17 Tue

Observer has the big picture.

Imagine 2035

The "#1 University" in the United States which attracts the best and the brightest from all over the world let alone the US , with a HUGE endowment and enthusiastic alumni who want to keep giving has a lousy athletic program?

Doubt it.

Bowen, Bok, Giamatti, Tilghman, Schmitt et al got it all wrong on Ivy athletics.

The new Presidents do not.

eg
Take a look at this years Yale's FB recruiting list.

Why is Bagnoli coaching at Columbia?

Think Penn hoops is on the rebound?

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
John Harvard
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Date Posted: 16:02:31 03/13/17 Mon

16-0 is absolutely domination of the league season. But I'd be hesitant to think that Princeton dominated Harvard. The difference was that Princeton played at a high enough level every night of Ivy play - Harvard did not. Princeton's upperclassmen know how to close out tough games. Although Harvard's 5 losses were by a total of 13 points, those were 5 lost opportunities. You have to win those Gaines to be a champion and Princrton did.

Good Luck Tigers! You absolutely deserve to represent the league and Im sure you'll do so well.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton v. Notre Dame--I report, you decide.


Author:
mrjames
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Date Posted: 20:32:15 03/13/17 Mon

Many eye rolls at much of this thread.

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