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Subject: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 06:46:29 04/04/17 Tue

Excellent opinion piece fron a former Brown athlete.

http://www.browndailyherald.com/2017/04/02/betuel-16-defense-ivy-league-recruiting/

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 12:49:16 04/04/17 Tue

The folks in Palo Alto and Durham probably wonder why the Ivys make such a fuss over the recruitment of athletes.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/31/how-selective-is-stanford-only-4-6-percent-of-would-be-freshmen-win-a-spot/

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 13:08:49 04/04/17 Tue


Just google "Happy Bottom Quarter."

That's the short answer to letters (that appear every few years) questioning why schools admit athletes/legacies/etc. with lower scores.

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[> Subject: Another Defender of Ivy League Athletes.


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 21:22:25 04/24/17 Mon

This piece is written by John Stuper, Head Coach of Yale baseball.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/02/28/letter-2-28/

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[> [> Subject: Such a dilemma...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:36:27 04/25/17 Tue


Let's assume that the "jocks" have lower scores/grades than the "eggheads."

Let's also assume that the "jocks" do a better job than the "eggheads" of giving the school free publicity by spending their waking hours walking around in school apparel, and telling everyone who will listen how much fun they are having/had at the school. And let's further assume that the "jocks" give more money in school donations than the "eggheads" after they graduate.

What to do?

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[> Subject: Re: Ivy athletics plays a major role in fundraising.


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 15:43:23 04/25/17 Tue

While I can't speak for the other Ivies, I know at Cornell some of our largest donors to the university are former student-athletes. Even those who didn't play sports may have been avid fans or lived in a fraternity/sorority with student-athletes. I also know Cornell athletics are well represented on Wall Street in areas like bond trading and investment banking. One of my alumni friends who is a former lacrosse player owns a very successful investment advisory firm and he recently told me he is very upset with the current state of Big Red athletics. So when our programs are in decline, this also inhibits giving to Cornell athletics and academic programs. Unfortunately the university doesn't seem to care about those alums. I have said for many years on this website, Cornell's endowment should be $10B and it doesn't help when three of our four major sports posted another losing record in 2016-17.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy athletics plays a major role in fundraising.


Author:
Upper Valley
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Date Posted: 17:49:27 04/25/17 Tue

I would be very curious whether fundraising in general or from former student-athletes in particular shows a positive correlation between winning records and donations per capita.

Has anybody every seen any research on this? Do winning teams produce more donations per capita, either from the ex-players on that particular team or from alumni in general?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy athletics plays a major role in fundraising.


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 18:06:47 04/25/17 Tue


If research exists, then chances are that googling "Flutie Effect" will lead to it.

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 20:18:39 04/25/17 Tue

While I cannot speak for correlation between donation and winning, there are ample studies and some class reunion surveys across several decades (such as the comprehensive studies by former Princeton President William Bowen), that have confirmed how former Ivy League athletes have done post-graduation compared to their peer classmates at their respective Ivy universities. The studies found for each of the cohort of classes across several decades that despite the Ivy athletes having a higher ratio of minority students and coming from lower average socioeconomic backgrounds, the Ivy athletes earned significantly more, were more generous donors, and exhibited greater involvement in and service to their communities compared to their peer classmates.

The research suggested that the Ivy League athletes' greater economic success compared to their peer group could partially be attributed to these Ivy athletes' personality and psychological makeup. The authors note that "one of these characteristics can be thought of as drive - a strong desire to succeed and unswerving determination to reach a goal, whether it be winning the next game or closing a sale. Similarly, Ivy League athletes tend to be more energetic than the average person, which translates into an ability to work hard over long periods of time - to meet, for example, the workload demands placed on young people by an investment bank in the throes of analyzing a transaction. In addition, athletes are more likely than others to be highly competitive, gregarious and confident of their ability to work well in groups (on teams)."

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[> [> Subject: All I know


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 21:46:32 04/25/17 Tue

is that I love watching Immelt appear on the miniscule Dartmouth video scoreboard before the game starts and him stating "I am a football player"

Powerful message from one of the most powerful CEO's in America

I hope that a few Dartmouth football players have networked and gotten jobs at GE because of that. It has been a big Teevens push since his second coming getting players a foot in the door of companies that have former Dartmouth players in leadership positions

I am sure that Harvard (sux) and the rest of the ivies are doing the same thing

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[> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 23:50:45 04/25/17 Tue

Jeff Immelt moved the corporate headquarters of GE from Fairfield to Boston because he and his wife wanted to live in Boston. In the process, he disrupted the lives of hundreds of GE employees, to say nothing of damaging the high end real estate markets of Darien, New Canaan, Fairfield, Westport, Wilton, et cetera. I don't have anything complimentary to say about ol' Jeff. Selfish jerk.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 10:50:57 04/26/17 Wed

Hi An Observer

While your source may be accurate, I find it hard to believe that a Board of Directors would physically move a large company simply for the convenience of the CEO. While it may be true that he did personally want to move to Boston for the reasons you have described, his ammunition was probably the financial and tax incentives that Holtsie delineated. So I suspect that it was a combination of both.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 11:19:57 04/26/17 Wed

Yes, Immelt was able to get Massachusetts and Boston to pony up a $145 million tax subsidy to move to Boston. Connecticut has plenty of problems but, when neighboring states start offering $145 million in cold, hard cash to lure the move of only 200 employees, you can't really blame Connecticut for not matching the bribe.

And a bribe is what it was, pure and simple. $120 million from the state of Massachusetts and $25 million from the city of Boston for 200 Connecticut jobs, plus a promise to hire another 600 new junior level programmers and staffers.

(The operating divisions of GE did not move, only the corporate headquarters.)

It's easy to find fault in any state's economic policies, including those of Connecticut, but not matching competitors' bribes is not one of them.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:59:54 04/26/17 Wed

Not unusual to offer such a "bribe" - in fact one can argue the CEO or Board would be disregarding stockholder interests had they turned it down.

Not endorsing the concept of states seeking to attract businesses by paying such "bribes", but it is the current landscape, and directors and CEOs are regularly sued by scummy, blood-sucking, contingency-fee seeking (excuse me, "in good standing") lawyers demanding damages for allegedly not acting in stockholder interest.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 13:30:11 04/26/17 Wed

I'm well aware that states, cities and local economic development authorities offer incentives for companies to move. And I get that, if I were running one of them, I'd do it as well.

But for a company, it makes the most sense when considering the construction of new plants or new facilities. In terms of moving the existing headquarters, you're really trading a one-time tax break against the inconvenience caused to employees and local communities.

Sure, if you think of the corporation as solely a profit-maximizing entity with no regard for employees and communities, that's the way to go. And as you say, Calvin, there are activist investors/blood-sucking predators who will make sure that you don't get too far away from that model or philosophy.

But what are you going to do, move corporate headquarters to a new state every 10 or 20 years just to pick off that low-hanging fruit every time that it's available? Is that your new headquarters planning model? What is the economic value created by being a long-time citizen of the local community, one whose planning horizon is not measured solely by the duration of state tax subsidies?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 20:55:04 04/26/17 Wed

I don't know anything about details of this deal, but usually states that extend such incentives make them subject to a clawback if the company does not stay in the state for the specified contract period.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 14:41:57 04/26/17 Wed

You're proposing what you think is a preferable approach. It's like a college seminar - probably intellectually interesting, but likely unrelated to what is really happening.

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[> [> Subject: he moved


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 05:47:32 04/26/17 Wed

the company to Boston area for 2 reasons
GE is more and more becoming a tech company and Boston is a hub for that
CT has high corporate tax rate and Gov Danny Boy Malloy is in the pocket of the public employee unions and doesn't give a hoot about the private sector

Look it up

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[> [> [> Subject: not to mention


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 08:03:10 04/26/17 Wed

high personal income tax rate as well. I have lived in CT for over 35 yrs and when I first moved here there was NO state income tax now it is over 7% and going higher. There is talk about putting tolls on 95 as well. Oh yeah we also have second highest gas tax in country and a spiraling budget deficit of 1.7 billion thanks to the Dems

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: not to mention


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 10:08:47 04/26/17 Wed

Great couple of posts Holtsledge. I suspected as much. Connecticut is pricing itself out of the market.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 10:39:03 04/26/17 Wed

Holtsie, you are accurately and faithfully repeating the public story that GE disseminated at the time. And, indeed, if I were to "look it up," as you suggest, that's exactly what I would read in GE's press releases.

I am getting my side of the story from a senior executive at GE. Now, he may be grumbling because, like many other families, he and his wife have to take their kids out of school and thoroughly disrupt their lives. So I accept that there may be a little bitterness. But the story from the inside of GE is that Jeff Immelt and his wife got tired of living the suburban/rural life of their beautiful estate in New Canaan and, like many empty nesters, wanted to move to a city center. The rest of the public rationalization was easy to concoct as a cover story.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
Bill
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Date Posted: 11:46:47 04/26/17 Wed

Maybe, he actually did it to make GE fiscally more healthy, saving numerous jobs. Your "Executive" friend should be grateful he has an amazing career. WOW

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 12:40:41 04/26/17 Wed

If GE moved to MA for tax reasons, that's a first. Unless things have really changed since I moved from MA.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: don't get me wrong


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 14:15:38 04/26/17 Wed

the last thing Fairfield county real estate property owners like myself wanted or needed was GE and it's well paid sr executives to move out of state. Certainly was not good

I do know that they have become more tech oriented especially software related so there expensive sophisticated machines can talk to each other. They also have a presence in Silicon Valley with well over 1000 employees I believe.

Maybe Jeff was tired of suburban living, I do know he had to cut the price on his NC house. I also think he was tired of Moron Malloy and his staffers

On a holiday weekend last summer I saw Malloy and a fairly large party at the Ocean House in RI. I wondered to myself what kind of optic that was. I would have thought the Gov would have made a point out vacationing in CT. I even wrote a few papers stating that but never got a response from any of them

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: don't get me wrong


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 14:49:54 04/26/17 Wed

I think that the cover story of becoming more tech oriented and moving to a tech hub like Boston is a transparent falsehood. All the sophisticated software programming and other technical value-added takes place at the operating companies, which did not move. That's where the Silicon Valley stuff happens. The corporate headquarters has finance, corporate development, human resources and other staff administration functions. The software for those functions is purchased from vendors because it's vanilla stuff.

I agree with you that Fairfield County did not need two hundred $3-5 million+ houses all hitting the real estate market at the same time. The guy next door to me bought his house for $4.7 million ten years ago. He's had it listed for a year now at $4 million. I think it'll clear the market at $3 million if he's lucky, in the mid-$2 million range if he's not. I think his forthcoming pain is pretty typical for this area.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sic transit gloria


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 15:24:26 04/26/17 Wed


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy League recruiting - it's not just sports


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 21:56:18 04/26/17 Wed

Ivy League recruiting is not just sports. A family friend of ours really wanted to attend Brown University. Apparently during her visit admissions didn't think she could get in, then the conductor of the Brown Orchestra found out she was a very good Cello player at her high school. So she went back to Brown to play for the conductor, who then put in a good word and she was accepted to Brown. I guess good Cello players are hard to come by, but she played in the Brown Orchestra for four years and has gone onto a very successful career in television and radio production. So whether you can play quarterback, perform Shakespeare, or play a musical instrument, it's that little extra these talented students bring to the Ivy League.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy League recruiting - it's not just sports


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 22:00:58 04/26/17 Wed


Bowen insisted repeatedly that the musicians recruited by the Ivy League generally have excellent grades/boards.

Maybe we shouldn't have taken his word for it?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
Sr Punter
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Date Posted: 14:13:51 04/27/17 Thu

The AI for the orchestra is lower.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 16:14:07 04/27/17 Thu

Aiva might take offense at that.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: he moved


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 17:35:07 04/27/17 Thu

The real important note is that the orchestra has no AI at all. They can fish below the artificial cut line imposed on sports teams.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Orchestra AI Scores


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 21:34:24 04/27/17 Thu

The difference is that Ivy orchestras do not compete -- directly, that is -- against each other. If there were a round robin competition between the eight Ivy orchestras culminating with championship trophy, I would favor some sort of mechanism by which more aggressive schools and their ambitious orchestras did not recruit ringers.

Ivy sports teams compete directly against each other and the temptation to cut corners is irresistible to some. Look around and smell the coffee.

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 23:14:15 04/26/17 Wed

Does anyone really think that the Ivy League can't be tops in sports and in academics too? It's always been a false premise that's it's one or the other.

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[> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 21:35:42 04/27/17 Thu

Yes...Stanford, Northwestern, and Duke are all doing just fine. There's nothing good about drawing only 3,000 fans (or less) at many Ivy League games. I hear about excessive drinking and drug use at many schools like Cornell, because the kids are bored! When Cornell went to the Sweet 16 in basketball, there were thousands of students at those games instead of baking their brains in Collegetown.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:43:28 04/28/17 Fri

So your thesis is that spectator sports are antithetical to frats and booze?

This would probably be news to administrators in the ACC, SEC and Big XII....

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 12:07:56 04/28/17 Fri

And if ever enforced (lol), unwelcome news to sponsoring schools losing such revenue.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 22:13:30 04/28/17 Fri

No....what I am saying is unlike other Ivies, Cornell is located in rural Upstate New York similar to a Purdue. I think the kids get bored and that's why we have a drinking and drug problem on campus. Improving our athletics program would give kids more to do. We already have Cornell students busing to Syracuse for basketball games. No reason why we couldn't have better sports options for our students in Ithaca. Back in 2010 I remember waiting in line to get into a basketball game and one of the students said "This is so much more fun than going to another party in Collegetown".

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 07:38:17 05/02/17 Tue

Yale pitcher Tyler Sapsford also defends student athletes

http://thepolitic.org/in-defense-of-student-athletes/

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[> Subject: Re: In Defense of Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 09:01:27 05/02/17 Tue

Wow, what a superbly written article. The author does such a fine job of expressing what many of us feel. The Ivy League is so much richer for admitting students who excel at the highest levels inside and outside the classroom, be it in sports, music, theatre, public service, politics, etc.

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