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Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 09:28:40 04/18/17 Tue
In reply to: Go Green 's message, "Re: Penn Spring Football Game" on 08:44:07 04/16/17 Sun

Torgersen did in fact have inflated numbers as a sophomore due to the fact that we were chasing much of the time, just as Dartmouth did last year. He attempted 125 less passes as a junior, we shared the Ivy title and he was All Ivy. That's why statistics can sometimes be very misleading.

The difference of course is that Penn fans weren't arguing that he was All Ivy calibre that sophomore season despite his stats. The team was clearly dysfunctional in 2014, and my understanding is that it had little to do with the kids on the field and more to do with the adults running the team.

The defense was clearly a big problem, but the guy running the defense was the same guy who led very good Penn defenses over the years and has shared two Ivy titles since being elevated to HC and realigning the staff.

I do think breaking in a new QB will be a challenge. Harvard seems to do it more successfully than most. Penn needs to mimic their success.

The fear I have with a new QB is overly simplified game plans and a predictable offense - not having some decent talent to work with.

Penn even had a bit of that last year even with Torgersen. We got manhandled by Princeton for several reasons, but a big part of it was that they were really well prepared to defend our tendencies on offense and we didn't have effective counter measures. Logic dictates we should have had a few with so many experienced skill players on the offensive side of the ball.

Hopefully things will settle down once they get through the preseason, but it's hard to feel fully confident with no established QB at this point in time. I think this league is very much QB driven among the top tier competitors.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
Old Lion (Hmmm)
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Date Posted: 09:36:56 04/18/17 Tue

Asia, how about laying off Al for a while. Your last two posts, not particularly thinly veiled, come with particular ill grace. Al, to his credit, continues to speak highly of Penn. At Columbia, we think Al has done a great job to date, and we couldn't be happier with the progress he has made.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 14:50:23 04/18/17 Tue

It is almost surreal to have a stable CU football program. If only they could find the right QB to lead them.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:44:03 04/18/17 Tue


The only reason Dartmouth guys were arguing for Heneghan to get All-Ivy based on his stats was because "stats" was the justification for bypassing Williams for first-team All Ivy the year before.

Personally, I think the league got it right last year with the All-Ivy QBs. Even though Heneghan had more yards than anyone, he wasn't one of the best QBs in the league (although he certainly wasn't bad either).

And I still say the league got it wrong in 2015 with Williams.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 10:07:42 04/18/17 Tue

Go Green

The two seem fairly unrelated. I only get to see limited pieces of opponents games against other teams. Williams was always great against us and, based on what I saw, better than the Harvard QB who was POY. But - I think he got nicked a bit from what I read and his performance tailed off a bit.

He was definitely very talented and was dangerous with both his arm and his feet before being slowed a bit by injury.

I would have had him on my All Ivy team, but again, I don't get to see the whole picture.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
PennLB
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Date Posted: 11:28:14 04/18/17 Tue

Asia - you are wise enough to see the forest through the trees.
Yes Priore was a capable DC in earlier championship seasons and a very competent recruiter.

But if you do not recognize that his obsession with becoming the next Head Coach at Penn started undermining Bagnoli then you are blind. From more then one source I have heard that personal agendas led staff members to do less then their best on both sides of the ball in order to accelerate Bagnoli's retirement and set a low bar for Priore to trump in his first years. The offensive talent left behind, that was productive but young in 2014, was the key to back to back championships. Priore hired great coaches, the Defense is organized and well coached, the Offense is much more open and creative.

Bagnoli will do fine at Columbia and Penn has a tradition that is built to last so both sides are better parted. But to not share responsibility for 2014 (and even 2013) with Priore is just blind homerism.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 12:21:29 04/18/17 Tue

I totally agree with you, but the staff was divided and ineffective and there were powerful forces lobbying for a major shake up. But look more behind the scenes to understand where the real power lies. That is not to say that Priore didn't have ambitions and wasn't part of the overall dysfunction that ultimately evidenced itself on the field. Winning football requires all cylinders to be firing properly and Penn was in disarray. The talent was not 2-5 talent, yet that's where we ended up.

Over and over you see teams misfire both on the college level and the pro level when everyone isn't on the same page or have competing agendas. Penn ultimately took action to correct that problem. The result of those actions to date have been very positive and the impact of changes made hard to dismiss.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
Farmington
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Date Posted: 15:58:49 04/18/17 Tue

This is fascinating stuff. We fans who simply watch from the outside do not usually hear or see about the internal dynamics of a coaching staff. To learn of a coordinator and/or other coaches actively working to undermine their head coach -- especially one with the tenure and success of Bagnoli -- rises to the level of gripping drama.

Asia, I thought that the 28-0 score in the P-P game overstated Princeton's margin of superiority on the field. The Tigers blocked a punt on Penn's first series and scored on the play. The entire second half, Penn was "chasing:" throwing more than they should have, going for it on fourth down, etc. Despite the lopsided margin, I did not think Penn was manhandled.

That's not to say Princeton wasn't the best team in the Ivies last season. They were. Indeed, Penn was very lucky that Princeton was tripped up by Harvard mid-season. By the end of the year, the Tigers had continued to improve, while Harvard had merely tread water or worse. Had Princeton played Harvard later than game six, I think the Tigers would have been outright champs.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn Spring Football Game


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 17:12:58 04/18/17 Tue

Farmington - I didn't say anyone was actively trying to undermine anybody else. I said the staff was dysfunctional. A lot goes into winning and there were components normally needed to win consistently that just weren't there in 2014.

As for the Princeton game last year, perhaps manhandled was an overstatement. It felt like the Tigers were in our huddle on all those missed 3rd and 4th down drive killers. So many passes got knocked down at the line of scrimmage by their DLs who sensed where Torgersen was going every time. They were very well prepared and anticipated plays based on our tendencies. I knew what was coming. Obviously they did as well. They played a great game against us, perhaps not as lopsided as the 28-0 score would indicate.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: tigers sure kicked our butts


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 16:27:28 04/18/17 Tue

and unfortunately I made the 2 1/2 hr drive down to see it. I did have my daughter with me and the tailgate was great.

Plus I got to meet Tigerblog author and an invite into press box where I surprised BGA

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You're half right


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:40:58 04/18/17 Tue


Dartmouth was ahead at the half in New Jersey. In the second half, the wheels came off. Fumbles and interceptions did us in. Princeton did indeed kick our butts... but in the second half.

You want examples of total domination? Check out the 2014 and 2010 D-P games. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: doesn't matter GG


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 21:16:05 04/18/17 Tue

Give it up for once man, sawhorse dollar or not, game wasn't close. They kicked our butts. I was there you weren't.
I sat right in front of Bavaro's family and watched his mom agonize as the game went on.

Let it go man.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yeah maybe you're right


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 21:59:22 04/18/17 Tue


Watching it on television rather than in person can really warp your perspective.

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