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Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Dr V
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Date Posted: 11:50:00 04/20/17 Thu
In reply to: holtsledge 's message, "Men's All Ivy BBall" on 16:15:09 03/11/17 Sat

That parts of the all Ivy voting this year were confused? skewed? just plain wrong? was confirmed by the selection of Weisz as POY. Weisz was a wonderful system player who did many different things on the court, all of which contributed to his team's wonderful season, but in the Ivy tourney he was 3/11 for 7 points in the semis against Penn and a glowing 3/13 in the finals against Yale for 9 points. This is the POY? Is there some advanced metric that explains why this was a good performance despite those stats? If so, please help me out here.

Not sure why it seems to be so difficult to distinguish between individual and team performances. To state the obvious, they are related, but given that it has long been everybody's practice to distinguish between team recognition and individual recognition, it doesn't make sense to conflate the two. Princeton's recognition was its championship and its record, and the knowledge and future memory of each player on that team that he was a part of an exceptional season. That's what you get for being on that team. That does not mean that you should also get individual awards because you were on that team, although it also doesn't mean that you should be disqualified from an individual award just because you've already received the "award" of being on a championship team. So Mitch clearly deserves COY for his championship season despite having lost two starters, and Stevens clearly deserves his accolades. But Weisz over Boudreau for first team is ridiculous.

Dartmouth, with all due respect to our Green fans, was terrible this year. Last in scoring offense, second to last in scoring defense, last in TO margin etc. On that team Boudreau was the league's second leading scorer and, and this is the part that sealed it for me, he was the league's leading rebounder by a whopping margin: he had 10 per Ivy game, the next player had 7.7, the third 7.0 etc. Since we choose to distinguish between individual and team "awards," there was no rational excuse for not having chosen Boudreau first team and for having chosen Weisz first team. Or perhaps we should just award the starting five on the championship team the first team all Ivy honor.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 12:07:50 04/20/17 Thu

Supposedly Weisz was the glue on the court that held the championship together so as to get the championship, as much as the coach, if I understand the argument correctly. If true, a factor not to be underestimated and honestly a better "metric" for an mvp type of award than mere stats. Depends on how one defines MVP criteria, which is the eternal debate in pro sports.

But otherwise your points are well taken, especially not conflating team accomplishments with individual awards.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 12:22:52 04/20/17 Thu

Weisz' winning of the award had everything to do with the fact that he had more talented (and more-talented) teammates than Boudreaux, not any mystical adhesive properties. The same could be said of Nwokedi over Zimmerman on the women's side.

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[> [> [> Subject: and yes


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 12:35:46 04/20/17 Thu

and yes it is a travesty that Boudreaux wasn't 1st team

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[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 13:16:32 04/20/17 Thu

If Broudreaux had played for Princeton this year he would have been
POY in my humble opinion

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[> [> Subject: Re: Men's All Ivy BBall


Author:
Old Lion (a winning record)
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Date Posted: 13:47:06 04/20/17 Thu

Case in point: Maodo Lo was beaten out his last two years even though a decent argument could have been made that he should have been POY, at least for his senior year. (He and Sears were the only unanimous first team all Ivy players). Certainly Lo in both of those years far outperformed Boudreaux's past year. But we had 10 league wins and Yale (with Sherrod and Mason as well as POY Sears) had 12 or 13.

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[> [> Subject: Weisz Picked As Team Co-POY


Author:
Franklin
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Date Posted: 17:02:35 04/24/17 Mon

I'm not here to argue in favor of or against Spencer Weisz as player of the year. But I observe that, in many conferences, each coach nominates only one of his players for consideration by the rest of the league coaches as POY. So when all the coaches vote, they are already receiving the input of the nominees' respective coaches that each was the most valuable player on his own roster.

I have no idea whether the Ivies follow this procedure, but I notice that Henderson chose as the co-recipients of Princeton's internal player of the year award Spencer Weisz and, interestingly, Amir Bell.

My point here is that Henderson himself chose Weisz as co-POY on a team which went 16-0 in the league. That's a pretty good reference to have on your resume when conference voting begins.

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