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Subject: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 20:21:08 06/30/17 Fri

Columbia, already the third most selective university in the country, is now beginning to wake up athletically.

Why is this happening?

The answer: Peter Pilling, Columbia's new athletic director.

Pilling is the man who brought Bagnoli to coach Columbia's long-dormant football team that suffered veritable disdain for decades from the University's administrations.

Now all of that is beginning to change.

Pilling, more than any other person, is responsible for this seismic change, not only with the football team, but also with all the other Columbia athletic teams.

Since 1919, Columbia College has required of every one of its students the requirement of taking the rigorous, two-year series of courses known as the Core Curicculum, a vast array of philosophy, literature, art, music, language, science, and global issues. Regardless of their majors, all College students must take the Core. There is no end-sweep wide enough to circumvent the Core.

So watch with amazement as Columbia emerges from its athletic slumber to become commensurate with its academic standing.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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Replies:
[> Subject: President Bollinger gets most of the credit


Author:
Ungvar
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Date Posted: 22:04:24 06/30/17 Fri

Prez Bo's been an awesome fundraiser and has loosened the purse strings for athletics. I think Pilling's great too but Columbia's uptick started before his watch. I also think Bollinger's into the whole legacy thing--his tenure's longer than any other Columbia president except for Butler. Why not go out as the savior of Lion sports as well.

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[> [> Subject: Re: President Bollinger gets most of the credit


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 23:57:45 06/30/17 Fri

Your point is well taken, but Bollinger was slow to act.

But for the College alumni uproar of several years ago, I fear that Bollinger and the Univeristy Trustees would not have come around; hence, no Pilling, and all the athletic advances he has championed.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
The Mountain Lion
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Date Posted: 09:09:39 07/01/17 Sat

Bollinger gets an A+ for finally supporting the football program and improvements at Baker Field. However, Bollinger has been a total disaster for the Columbia basketball program and all the other Columbia winter sports as he has done nothing to replace the antiquated Levien Gymnasium facility. Columbia needs desperately to construct a new world-class physical fitness facility for its winter teams and general student body. Until that happens, Bollinger's gets an F grade.

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[> [> Subject: Finding money to replace Levien


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 13:11:00 07/01/17 Sat

Prez. Bollinger has to find an alumnus willing to fork over $200 million for a new facility--easier said than done. I understand your frustration but an F grade is ridiculous and a bit insulting given how much he's done of the institution. You may not know it but Columbia's just started another $5 billion campaign just two years after finishing off a $6 billion campaign. I'm sure Mr. Pilling's got something up his sleeves.

To Observer, I quote a famous Monty Python line, "I fart in your general direction."

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[> [> [> Subject: Columbia's Future Prospects and Its Low Admit Rate


Author:
Upper Valley
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Date Posted: 14:10:50 07/01/17 Sat

Re: Observer, Harvard has been near the top for so long that a step toward the middle of the pack feels threatening and induces defensiveness.

Re: Our Columbia friends, the Lions have been at the bottom for so long that even a small step toward the middle of the pack feels exciting and inspiring, inducing optimism and more than a little exuberance.

Columbia fans should indeed be energized and forward-looking at this time. We'll see if the initial momentum can be translated into actual wins and then championships. I believe the future looks very bright.

It's interesting to read Tod refer to the possibility of Columbia's athletic fortunes one day matching its world class academic reputation. The favorite statistic of all Columbia students and alumni is its low admission rate.

But there are two influential factors which depress Columbia's admission rate independent of the draw of the Core Curriculum and the university itself. The obvious one is New York City, which draws young people like a flame attracts moths.

The more important but less obvious factor is sports. HYP and Stanford have their admission rates substantially increased by their large athletic programs. Applicants supported at the admission office by their coaches have an admit rate of nearly 100%. This dramatically distorts the overall admit rate for small schools with big athletic programs.

Look at the most extreme example: Princeton. A full 20% of the student body is a varsity athletic because the campus is small and the Tigers support 39 varsity sports. That's about 250 of the 31,000 applicants to Princeton which had an admit rate of 100%. Think about how low the admit rate was for the 30,750 non-athletes applicants. If an applicant is not a recruited athlete, Princeton must be the most selective college in the country. Next would be Harvard, then Stanford and Yale.

Columbia on the other hand has a larger overall student body and a smaller athletic program with 29 varsity sports. Athletic recruits don't impact the overall admit rate to the same extent.

It's New York City and a smaller athletic program which make Columbia look as selective as HYP and Stanford.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia's Future Prospects and Its Low Admit Rate


Author:
Old Lion (Columbia Admissions)
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Date Posted: 18:22:53 07/01/17 Sat

You are misinformed. Columbia College has 4,400 students. It is either the smallest or second smallest college in the IL. That has been the case for years. Approximately 20 % of the class are recruited athletes. That leaves 900 places, give or take.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia's Future Prospects and Its Low Admit Rate


Author:
Upper Valley
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Date Posted: 19:39:35 07/01/17 Sat

Columbia College is not the relevant denominator.

The relevant denominator is at least Columbia College plus the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Sciencesl, as those are the core undergraduate schools in which most of the athletes are enrolled. Arguably, if you are counting as the numerator both men and women athletes, you should include Barnard College as well since a significant minority of female athletes are enrolled at Barnard. Finally, since every year there are a handful of athletes plucked from the School of General Studies, the most inclusive yet still appropriate denominator would be:

Columbia College 4,644
Fu School 1,619

Minimum Subtotal 6,263

Barnard 2,573

Subtotal For Male and Female Athletes 8,836

General Studies 2,449

Maximum Total For Male and Female Athletes 11,285

Columbia's undergraduate student body including CC and Fu is definitely larger than Dartmouth, Princeton, Yale and Brown. If you include Barnard since we are measuring Columbia's 29 varsity teams including 15 women's teams, Columbia is also larger than Harvard.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Whatever the numbers


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 07:50:59 07/02/17 Sun

It's clear that CU's are on the upswing. Upper Valley identifies the key factor, which is NYC. Beyond anything else, CU's fortunes are tied to those of the City. It had to be an almost impossible sell, at a least to parents, in the 70's, after the campus riots, with the Upper West Side in full decay and NYC facing bankruptcy. NYC is now being used a selling point.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: YMMV


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:11:12 07/02/17 Sun


But I don't think that Yale is getting "nearly 100%" of their football recruits admitted.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 16:36:57 07/01/17 Sat

Mountain Lion,

I agree with you about the plight of Levien.

Maybe Pilling can work his magic to bring about a world-class facility, which Columbia sorely needs.

If he can, look out--and up!

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> Subject: Ivy championships - by school - each year


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 09:43:01 07/01/17 Sat

http://ivyleaguesports.com/history/championships/IvyLeague/BySchool

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Acob (Past post)
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Date Posted: 10:21:30 07/01/17 Sat

At the near finish of a disappointing football season for Columbia there was a flurry of sad commentary from men of Knickerbocker. I posted the sole solution for the situation was hiring then available Al Bagnoli. Knowing from speaking with him he was missing challenge and adept to address this I stated the only salvation for Columbia football was hiring Al Bagnoli and listening to what he tells you. To my delight in sitting with him tw years ago at the Andy Talley Tribute Dinner he confirmed the Sicilian Message was being translated successfully.
Life offers some unusual delights. That post is now one for me.
As Bengali oft utters, cheers for the Lions.

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[> [> Subject: Columbia has binding early admission - HYPSM do not.


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 08:58:05 07/02/17 Sun

That gives Columbia a huge group with a 100% yield.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
The Mountain Lion
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Date Posted: 19:09:40 07/01/17 Sat

Ungar, I certainly agree with you that Bollinger has done wonders as President of Columbia University and therefore, I did not intend to give him a failing grade for his overall performance in that capacity. The "F" grade was only meant to be an evaluation of what he has accomplished in terms of improving the athletic facilities on Campus. I don't see how you can give him anything but an "F" grade in that respect. Sure it's expensive to build new facilities, but that does not mean he deserves a passing grade.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 22:40:19 07/01/17 Sat

5.8% is the 2017 combined admit rate for both Columbia College and the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science (the oldest Engineering School in the country).

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> Subject: You left something out


Author:
Diogenes (Tod Howard Hawks)
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Date Posted: 09:42:32 07/02/17 Sun

Columbia's School of General Studies contains about a third of Columbia's undergraduates. Its admission rate is roughly 33%.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: 5.8% Is The Correst Admit Rate for Traditional Columbia Undergraduates


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 15:34:31 07/02/17 Sun

Columbia's School of General Studies is for non-traditional undergraduate students who range in age from their mid-20s to 70 years of age, and above.

Harvard, for example, among many other universities, has the same kind of school as Columbia's School of General Studies, which is used by many people who, later in life, decide they want to become doctors and take pre-med courses so they can apply to medical schools.

Nice try.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: ah


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 16:13:25 07/02/17 Sun

what is a correst some sort of left wing forest safe space lol

relax Tod just giving you hell I am the king of typos

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: 5.8% Is Correct Admit Rate for Columbia; the Typo is Mine.


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 16:49:10 07/02/17 Sun


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: General Studies students can play on Columbia teams


Author:
Diogenes (Tod Howard Hawks)
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Date Posted: 17:12:42 07/02/17 Sun

A few years ago Columbia had a very good baseball player who was enrolled in General Studies. Don't know about football or basketball.

If GS students are 30% of the Columbia undergraduate population, admitted at a 33% rate and are eligible to play on varsity teams, isn't it a bit misleading to claim on a sports blog an admissions rate of 5.8%?

GS and its faculty are fully integrated into Columbia according to what I read on the internet. Check out the Wikipedia page on GS.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Harvard Extension School


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 17:45:04 07/02/17 Sun

Google Harvard Extension School to see how Harvard does the same that Columbia does.

Tod Howard Hawks

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Extension School


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 18:14:47 07/02/17 Sun

There are obviously not a lot of Columbia varsity athletes from the School of General Studies, but there are some.

Are there any Harvard varsity athletes from the Extension School? That's not intended to be smart alecky. I'm asking the question, not implying an answer.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Extension School


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 18:39:48 07/02/17 Sun

I think you're nit-picking.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: General Studies students can play on Columbia teams


Author:
IvyVoyeur
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Date Posted: 21:57:27 07/02/17 Sun

GS has an admissions restriction that reflects its mission to offer opportunities to nontraditional students. The be eligible, you have to have had an interruption in your education of at least a year. The baseball player referred to earlier was a Marine veteran of the War in Iraq who had been out of schol long enough for three tours. GS students have access to undergraduate courses across the university, but you can't fairly say they are part of the undergraduate admissions process in a meaningful way. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if GS students can attend CU part-time, a privilege not allowed CU undergrads.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: General Studies students can play on Columbia teams


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 22:41:54 07/02/17 Sun

According to Columbia's web site, General Studies students are eligible for athletic teams but are required to meet with the Compliance Director of the Athletic Department to make sure their course load meets NCAA hour requirements applicable to all student-athletes.

GS students are fully integrated into Columbia academics and take the same courses, with the same professors, as other students. Indeed, they can transfer to engineering or science majors if they meet the standards.

Red Auerbach was a GS student from '37-'39.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re:all of the above


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 19:13:22 07/02/17 Sun

THH did not develop the statistics. I googled Ivy admission rates and found similar %'s and rankings from various published sources--US News and so on. So the criticisms about methodology should be made in that direction. What is wrong with Ivy guys? People seem to get bent out of shape if CU moves up in the rankings, but everyone seems to accept that Stanford is outdoing all of us. Finally, General Studies criticism is a low blow. GS serves an admirable purpose and has little, if anything, to do with overall CU athletics or the admission rates to the traditional undergrad schools.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Old Lion (GS)
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Date Posted: 10:58:09 07/04/17 Tue

GS does not accept students right out of high school. The coaches do not recruit GS students. We had a vet who played baseball a few years ago who was in GS. I think there may be a vet who walked on for football last year but am not sure. A good percentage of the student body at GS are now vets. GS students are by definition older, they do not live in dorms, and they have the option of taking a partial course load. The admissions statistics for GS are irrelevant since they do not recruit from the same pool as the College or the much smaller engineering school. While I do not regard myself as a fan of GS as an abstract proposition, it is hard to quarrel with giving deserving vets a chance at a quality education.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 15:25:15 07/07/17 Fri

The new AD and new approach is working well but bottom line is sports in NYC is tough to do. You can throw money at the problem but the geography is hard.

I always thought they shortchanged themselves by not getting a lacrosse program going in the 70s. NYC is surrounded by fertile recruiting areas and as we are seeing now, the sport has broad appeal nationally. It's not too late if they can find facilities for a men's and women's program.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 17:08:07 07/07/17 Fri

Women's lax already plays at Wien, correct?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 18:17:42 07/07/17 Fri

Columbia fans don't get too excited as you finished 3-7 in football last year with only two Ivy wins. No doubt Bagnoli is a very good coach, but until you break the .500 mark, then you can talk a little about a "Sleeping Giant". Not like I can brag about Cornell football either as we were 4-6 last season with two Ivy wins as well, but definitely an improvement over the prior year. However, until we start going at least 5-5 or 6-4, we don't really deserve to discuss our title hopes anytime soon. It's a new year and I am always optimistic Coach Archer and his team can win some more games this season.

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[> [> [> Subject: LAX


Author:
Al's Wingman
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Date Posted: 20:21:14 07/07/17 Fri

Well if they have women's LAX then they are just being lazy not participating in men's LAX.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: LAX


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 09:58:22 07/08/17 Sat

Columbia has had women's lacrosse for about 10 years. Not very successful so far but gradually improving.

I thought the reason for not having a men's team was based on male/female athlete and sports ratios and economics (title IX). Too bad for a school that was one of the original college lacrosse teams in the 1880s.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 19:11:49 07/07/17 Fri

I didn't say Columbia Football was "awake."

I said it was "starting to wake up," which, in itself, is a huge accomplishment.

It will take a few more years to "awaken" and win a championship, especially after a decades-long coma.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 19:39:03 07/07/17 Fri

Washington Irving spun quite a tale about Rip Van Winkle sleeping for 40 years in New York. Lions' NY football slumber is in its 56th year and counting. Some might equate such inactivity to death.

As a Yale fan, I must admit that such signs of Columbia's demise have recently been contradicted by victories over Yale in '12 and '15.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 23:27:23 07/07/17 Fri

You're right.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up(joiseyfan's Q?)


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 20:06:41 07/07/17 Fri

CU does have a women's lax team. I don't when it started. But they were 7-8 overall, and 2-5 Ivy last year. They play up at the old Baker Field complex.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up(joiseyfan's Q?)


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 16:28:35 07/10/17 Mon

Columbia men had an LAX team in '71? Can't imagine women's sports would be so well represented prior to Title IX.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Roar
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Date Posted: 04:00:51 07/08/17 Sat

People forget that we had a strong winning season in '71, went 6-3 and just missed Ivy title. So it's only been 46 years, no big deal.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Uptown
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Date Posted: 12:44:40 07/08/17 Sat

Yep. We're in the off season, alright.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 12:48:38 07/08/17 Sat

More recent than 1971 were several good mid-1990s teams, including 1996's 8-2 team featuring future NFL All-Pro, Marcellus Wiley. So, 20 years, not 46.

That said, the comment above about the challenge of fostering college sports in NYC is correct. But, I've always believed that people with the right attitudes, skills, and promotional approach could get it done and knock it out of the park there.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 22:17:25 07/08/17 Sat

One of the all time great summer threads. You guys are the best.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Roar
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Date Posted: 23:15:13 07/10/17 Mon

My sincere apologies for forgetting about the terrific 1996 8-2 team. 1994 was another winning year. Guess I got momentarily carried away by the negative hyperbole, sorry, but glad to provide some fodder for foehi, the eternal Lion antagoniste who instructs us (if unknowingly) in tolerance and compassion.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 16:20:27 07/11/17 Tue

you have 2 winning seasons in 50+ years and you forget one of them???

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Roar
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Date Posted: 23:40:52 07/11/17 Tue

Actually I forgot two of them, the two from the nineties,which is inexcusable, you're right about that, Fooey.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
The Lion
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Date Posted: 10:29:56 07/12/17 Wed

I have amnesia after "Sid Luckman".....Okay, Archie Roberts. I would say Marty Domres but we were already a nation of lawyers by then and he should have sued on grounds of non-support.

I wait to see if the next Great Awakening will be Bagnoli making his bones at Columbia or inferring them there.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
The Lion
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Date Posted: 10:34:22 07/12/17 Wed

Oops, I meant "interring" not "inferring" of course.
If only mine were not interred first.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 18:30:59 07/12/17 Wed

of course we must remember, "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones".

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia: The Athletic "Sleeping Giant" That Is Starting to Wake Up


Author:
Roar
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Date Posted: 22:46:23 07/12/17 Wed

Fooey, I hope we won't have to wait 'til then.

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