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Subject: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Parent
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Date Posted: 15:51:20 07/04/17 Tue

Observer 15,

Respectfully, in your comments (now archived) in the message “U Chicago Reports 2021 Football Recruiting Class” you bring up several topics that warrant further discussion.

First, the matter of yield at U Chicago. For the 2021 class, the yield is most certainly in the same category as HYP, and well above the rest of the Ivy League. Chicago is a “first choice” machine as measured by yield. Now, you can debate how Chicago achieves yield, and that is a justifiable debate, but the numbers are the numbers on yield. This is all modern-day stuff on Chicago, and I can’t attest to what happened in the 1970’s when kids got into Chicago and Harvard and had to make decisions.

As for U Chicago’s cross admit advantages over the Ivy League, again let’s look at the numbers, specifically for the purposes of responding to your statement that there is a “10-1, or more,” Ivy cross commit advantage over Chicago. Please consider these facts. U Chicago enjoys a substantial cross admit advantage over Dartmouth and Cornell, is in a toss-up with Brown, is a small loser to Columbia, and a loser to HYP. In the worst “blow out”--Harvard beats Chicago head to head 7-3, not anywhere near your “10-1 or more” level your assert.
Please review the research on this website:

http://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=University+of+Chicago&with=dartmouth

This cross admit analysis make sense as U Chicago enjoys a #3 USNWR ranking (behind Princeton #1 and Harvard #2 and a tie with Yale at #3) --students and parents consider these rankings when fortunate enough to be picking between Columbia (#5), Penn (#8) Dartmouth (#11), Brown (#14) and Cornell (#15).

Beyond yield, cross admit data, and rankings, there is also a measure of “brainpower” that should be noted. In this case, one metric is standardized tests, the holy grail of higher education comparisons. Three Ivy league schools don’t even make the top 10 here. U Chicago is #2. The students there are flat our brilliant.

http://www.businessinsider.com/smartest-colleges-in-america-2014-10

Next, there is this concept of the First Amendment, and the whole reason to attend college—to be exposed to new ideas. In this study, the University of Chicago is #1. For parents and students about to embark on the monumental financial and educational decision as to which college to attend, this ranking should be given serious consideration. Chicago’s peer schools---Harvard, Yale, Princeton & Stanford rank way down on the list of allowing their students exposure to a broad range of ideas. I know a conservative idea may frighten many 19 year olds, but Chicago makes sure that there are no save spaces from ideas, be it right or left.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/colleges-promise-to-be-less-politically-correct-1498305600

https://heterodoxacademy.org/resources/guide-to-colleges/top150/

In closing, and not to minimize the difference between high level D3 football/NCAA playoff eligible vs Ivy/ 1AA football/NCAA ban—recruits brilliant enough to get an offer from UChicago, or any of the 8 Ivies, know full well that 99.9% of Ivy League players will never play a down in the NFL, nor will a UChicago football player stand any better chance. But they all have dreams for four years until it is time to go to work, and I encourage those NFL dreams as there are D3 kids and Ivy kids who buck great odds and are in the NFL.

So, in closing, a major reason to play football in college is to continue one’s love of the best sport in the world. Another is to gain an admissions advantage into the best schools in the world. By every measure, UChicago, all 8 Ivies, and a dozen or so other top academic schools, fit the bill of “best in the world.”

Any kid lucky enough to have multiple offers cannot go wrong at all. But a football recruit with an offer from Chicago and Yale has the same number of reason to say yes to either school. This is an apples to apples decision from my points of view above.

In the spirit of UChicago, thanks for taking the time to listen to my points of view as I listened carefully to you.

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[> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 16:24:48 07/04/17 Tue

Well said. Thank you. A happy Fourth to you and your family.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
HDallmar
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Date Posted: 19:37:05 07/04/17 Tue

Thanks for your interesting and helpful post.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Big Green watcher
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Date Posted: 22:49:32 07/04/17 Tue

From everything I've ever heard, U Chicago is very, very hard. Nothing but respect for a student taking on academics and sports there. And what a great city! Thanks for your post. Monsters of the Midway...

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 13:08:11 07/05/17 Wed

Appreciate Parent's thoughtful posts and observations about the many virtues of U. of Chicago. I think it was Robert Maynard Hutchins, the "boy wonder" Dean of Yale Law School, who helped Chicago cement its reputation as a world class university in the 1930's. Unfortunately, Mr. Hutchins also pulled the plug on the glorious football tradition started by the immortal Amos Alonzo Stagg of Yale, Walter Camp's most talented protégé and the man who coached the Maroons to the point that they were known, before the Bears, as the "Monsters of the Midway." Yale tried to lure Hutchins back as its president in the late 30's, and he was said to remark, "why would I leave one of the world's great universities to head a glorified prep school on Long Island Sound." If this tale is true, it may have spared Yale FB a fate similar to that of Chicago's gridders, banned totally for decades.

Parent is dead on accurate with her comparisons of Chicago support of free speech with the sorry recent events on Ivy campuses. I would differ with Parent on one matter--the statement that there is such a thing as "a football recruit with an offer from Chicago and Yale." Reports in my possession from New Haven would indicate that no such person exists.

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[> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message(cross admit comparison)


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 13:58:34 07/05/17 Wed

I'm sort of reluctant to bring this up because it doesn't really change the gist of your comments about Chicago, a school which I've always admired. Nonetheless, you quote a lot of statistics to buttress your points.

I wasn't trying to prove or disprove anything, but out of curiosity, I looked at your reference for cross admit percentages. This source showed vs. Chicago: Brown-51%, Columbia-58%, Cornell-40%, Dartmouth-44%, Harvard-71%, Penn-56%, Princeton-59%, Yale-76%. You didn't mention Penn (which has a substantial margin over Chicago), said that Chicago is a small loser to Columbia (I wouldn't call Columbia's 16% pt advantage small) and that Harvard is the biggest blow out (Yale is the biggest). So, unless I'm misinterpreting, it appears that the stats in your reference don't quite line up with your assertions.

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[> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:48:11 07/06/17 Thu

While I agree with others that University of Chicago (U of C) is an outstanding university from an academic perspective, it is somewhat silly to compare U of C to Yale for recruited football players. This is not an "apples to apples decision", any more than the Ivy League is not competitive when trying to compete with Stanford for a four and five star football recruits.

It is extremely rare that any of the top 20 recruits for any of the Ivy football programs need to worry about competing with a D3 school. Occasionally, we may lose out on a marginally recruited Ivy player or even a preferred walk-on recruit to a D3 football program. The gap in the quality of play between the Ivy League and the U of C's Midwest Conference is as dramatic as the gap between the Ivy League and the Pac 12. The U of C plays in the Midwest Conference with Beloit College, Cornell College, Grinnell, Illinois College, Knox, Lake Forest, Lawrence, Monmouth, Ripon and St. Norbert. Simply put, this Midwest Conference does not have any of the rich traditions of the Ivy League.

Equally important, the league has a much better pipeline for former Ivy football players to elite jobs in the Wall Street, Private Equity, consulting and high tech. To illustrate this point, let's look at how U of C does placing its students in top 10 MBA programs compared to the Ivy League. College Confidential analyzed what were the top feeder colleges to America's top MBA programs. U of C only generated 12 MBA students compared to 192 for Harvard, 183 for U Penn, 113 for Yale, 101 for Princeton, 89 for Columbia, 80 for Dartmouth, 59 for Cornell, and 47 for Brown. The gap is similar when analyzing statistics for feeder colleges for Wall Street, Private Equity, consulting and high tech. Since the majority of football recruits have an strong interest in pursuing a career in business, this gap is very meaningful to them.

Finally, the third major gap area for U of C is not having an engineering program on campus. The lack of engineering classes hurts recruiting for the ever growing percentage of student athletes who have an interest in pursuing a career in high tech or entrepreneurship.

In summary, U of C is highly competitive for bright students overall, but it is not a close comparison between Yale and U of C when recruiting for an elite football player. It is a better comparison for the flute player or classics major.

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[> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Observer15 (To Parent)
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Date Posted: 02:06:46 07/10/17 Mon

Thank you, Parent for your respectful and interesting letter.

First, let’s get this out of the way.

Please let us take off the table the quality of Chicago as a school. No one is debating that. It’s a great school! Period. Whether Chicago is “intellectually broader” and is a place where one is exposed to a ”broad range of ideas” more than this or that other school is a fine debate - I would have much to say about it - but it is irrelevant to the discussion about yield which is being discussed here.

Similarly, the issue about playing in the NFL - who imagines he will, what happens to them, etc etc.is irrelevant to this discussion. I accept easily that few students from the Ivies will be playing in the NFL. I still think there is a difference between Division III and 1AA athletes and also would have things to say about that,but again that is not the discussion that was raised.

The discussion raised had to do not with quality or character of school, but with yield, pure and simple. (By the way, it is yield that really matters -not application numbers. A school can have thousands of students who apply as a second choice, and so their yield may be low.)

Comparing yields at schools which have different systems of admissions is not comparing apples to apples but apples to oranges. Chicago, like a number of Ivy schools, has Early Action but it also has two – get that, TWO – Early Decision processes (!) the later one to catch Ivy + applicants who have been deferred. Students know they get a leg up for admission when they apply Early Decision –and while for some students it is an absolute choice, for many others it is a smart gamble, especially after deferral: they know that getting into an Ivy, especially HYP, or Stanford, is super difficult, so they go with a school they like where they make get a kick start as an applicant, even though they are required to attend if admitted. Once again Chicago offers that possibility TWICE, in two separate application periods within the same application year. The school fills a large part of its class with such students, AND of course these programs boost yield because the yield from these programs is 100!

HYP all have EARLY ACTION. When students apply and are admitted they are not hooked in. They can then go and apply to other schools knowing they have an admit to a wonderful school locked up, which a decent number do. When presented with two or three wonderful offers, they then make their decision later after visiting and comparing further.

Obviously, it is senseless to compare a school which has a 100% yield in Early Decision, where people are obliged to attend, with any school that has an Early Action plan, where after being admitted students can apply to other schools. The general public doesn’t focus on this - it does not make an easy sound bite - and ED schools use their “high yield” from admitted students obliged to attend to public relations advantage. But comparing ED and EA yields in this way is crazy.

BTW, this year Chicago, in an unusual move, seems to have determined not to release its admissions application or yield numbers until Fall, although it has done this happily in the past. And I quote: “The University of Chicago does not intend to release admissions numbers this spring for the Class of 2021. This includes the number of applicants and the acceptance rate.“

What is that all about? I have my own ideas.

Where did you get your belief that “Harvard beats Chicago head to head 7-3” on cross admits? I do not believe such information is reported anywhere. Admittedly my 10-1 was a sheer guess, but I would bet the farm I am closer than you. I do not know many students at all, period, who are cross admits and choose Chicago over an Ivy. Very few.

You say: “A football recruit with an offer from Chicago and Yale (Question: Yale in particular?)has the same number of reason to say yes to either school. This is an apples to apples decision from my points of view above.” Any student might prefer Chicago, I agree, but an “apples to apples decision for a football player” - or anyone else? –respectfully, No.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
IvyKnowledge
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Date Posted: 09:30:34 07/10/17 Mon

Harvard 71% - U of Chicago 29% - Cross-admit data is published by Parchment: http://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=University+of+Chicago&with=harvard

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Observer15 (to IvyKnowledge)
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Date Posted: 11:46:11 07/10/17 Mon

Ah, yes, Parchment. Be advised:

Parchment is a transmitter of data and like all data collection it is limited by what it receives and is only as good as what it receives so it must be interpreted. Their data collection is heavily skewed to Midwestern high schools, which are way over represented. The denominator of cross admits for Chicago and Ivies is indubitably way smaller than the national figure. The 95% confidence interval is encouraging but the wide ranges confirm the small denominators and don’t do anything to account for regional differences.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Parchment ...


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:52:00 07/11/17 Tue

Their cross-admit stuff used to be far closer to "reality" (based on such glimpses of it as we have had) than it is today. I have asked many people why this is so. I think, as Observer 15 says, it is because their "reporting pool" has become less and less representative of the nation (and world) for a variety of reasons.

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[> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 16:34:07 07/10/17 Mon

Observer15. I had never heard of Parchment before. After reading your post, I was curious. I found it amusing to learn about them. Clearly, their methodologies have some serious flaws as reflected by how they rank the top US universities (see link below)

http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php

I won't quibble over which of the Ivies or Stanford deserves to be ranked at the top, but this ranking has little relationship to traditional most selective colleges measurements (applicant pool, acceptance rates, ave GPA, ave SAT, etc.). How the US Coast Guard Academy can be ranked higher than all the Ivies except Penn is remarkable. Never realized that HYP are safety schools for the Coast Guard Academy.

Parchment should do the data collection for the Breitbart New Network.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Response to an archived U Chicago 2021 Football Recruiting Class Message


Author:
Observer15
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Date Posted: 17:52:54 07/10/17 Mon

They use college transcripts submitted by guidance counselors to do their stats. Since they are Midwest heavy, and the n is often small, you have to know what you are looking at. Here it is certain that their yield ratio of Chicago vis-a-vis the Ivies is skewed. There are, as we know, lies, damn lies, and statistics. You have to know your source and interpret. So back to the core issue: Chicago is a great school. No argument. Would be delighted to have my son or daughter attend. Someone could well pick it over an Ivy for a dozen reasons. But do many, football players or otherwise? Answer: no.

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