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Subject: harvard recruits


Author:
walt yale blue
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Date Posted: 04:34:21 07/11/17 Tue

Will the free rides every stop.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:23:33 07/11/17 Tue

Don't scare the Big 0.

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[> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 09:42:23 07/11/17 Tue

The amount of scholarship aid to prospective students will steadily grow further for all the Ivies.

Each one of the Ivy university's endowment investment fund income and their level of new alumni donations have continued to expand at rates that are far in excess of inflation and growth of university expenses. Thus, there is ever increasing pressure to further significantly expand financial aid at each of our colleges. There also is strong political pressure to expand financial aid to middle and upper middle income families. As such, you can expect new announcements of further expansion of financial aid at the Ivies every few years. The issue is not how to cut back financial aid to our students (and thereby also our student athletes), rather it is identifying a plan to make it more level across the Ivies.

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[> [> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 10:02:46 07/11/17 Tue

"...identifying a plan to make it more level across the Ivies".

Not going to happen. I believe that's what got the Ivies in trouble with the Feds the first time.

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[> Subject: I would expect this from Sprint, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:56:26 07/11/17 Tue


Yale has more than enough resources to match whatever Harvard is doing.

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[> [> Subject: And its hard to say which Ivy spends the most on sports.


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:35:30 07/11/17 Tue

Data is all over the place, with nobody, apparently, wanting to admit they're the top spender. "Oh its all in the accounting" they'll say.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/02/04/breaking-down-yale-athletics-budget/

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[> Subject: Well check the stats:


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:24:43 07/11/17 Tue

All the Ivies are among the national leaders in need-based financial aid, with Harvard, Princeton and Yale bunched tightly at the top. But as Eastern Sports Fan notes, they are barred by law from coordinating aid packages, as they did in the old days.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value

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[> [> Subject: Re: Well check the stats:


Author:
Warrior Ii
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Date Posted: 15:05:43 07/11/17 Tue

John Harvard. You are talking to the wrong college counselor. Having an AI floor means that every kid over the floor is admissible at every Ivy League school and every Ivy League school has kids whose AI 's are close to the floor . Each school is able to average two football players per year in the lowest AI band which means that 8 can be on the same team. All the IVs take advantage of that role.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Well check the stats:


Author:
Warrior II
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Date Posted: 15:07:53 07/11/17 Tue

Rule

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[> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
John Harvard
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Date Posted: 13:32:24 07/11/17 Tue

Financial Aid is only part of 'the package' (see thread about Pennsylvania QB). Of course, other schools can offer similar financial aid.

There is another factor though. Just last week a college recruitment adviser confirmed to me what had been obvious. Due to AI calculations, Harvard can't touch players some other Ivies can. Financial Aid doesn't matter.

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[> [> Subject: The Dartmouth, Brown, Penn and Cornell guys will never admit this!


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:38:32 07/11/17 Tue

It ruins their "meme"

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[> [> [> Subject: Penn kind of has to...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:17:46 07/11/17 Tue


Princeton's denial of admission to Kyle Wilcox was pretty high profile at the time.

As for me, I usually assume that when Dartmouth gets a stud with several scholarship offers, but HYP are not in the recruitment picture... then there might be AI issues at play.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Penn kind of has to...


Author:
John Harvard
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Date Posted: 16:33:20 07/11/17 Tue

HYP may have some perceived branding and FA advantages, but there are other factors which - in some instances - could be decisive. HYP can't offer some athletes while others may be able to. Also, some athletes might want what NYC or Hanover have to offer as those locations are somewhat unique within the league. Likewise, HYP does not offer anything like Wharton. I think too much emphasis is placed on head to head decisions whereas there are other factors which might eliminate HYP from consideration.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Go Green.


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 09:36:58 07/12/17 Wed

Because you seem to comment on everything, it's not unusual that you occasionally miss the mark.

Yes - Princeton admissions did reject Kyle Wilcox, but not because he wasn't academically qualified. Princeton is clearly entitled to make its own admission's decisions, but, for the record, everyone should understand that that decision was not made because Kyle was a low bander that couldn't be squeezed into their football recruiting class.

Princeton's rationale in rejecting Kyle was that he emerged from the foster care system and was under the legal guardianship of his brother who had just reached majority age. For whatever reason, Princeton determined that Kyle's unusual support system threatened his ability to succeed as a Princeton student. That clearly is their right, although best guess is that there are lots of Ivy admits that come from dysfunctional homes and the same judgement could have been made.

Kyle graduated from Penn with a double major in Chemical Engineering and Asian Studies, received the prestigious Fox Leadership Fellowship and earned his Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering, also at Penn. He currently works as a software developer.

So with hindsight, it is fairly easy to pass judgement on the relative decision making done by both schools - but - we shouldn't think for a second that this player was a low AI admit or that his performance both on the field and in the classroom didn't support the judgement of the Princeton football staff, who actually knew the individual and understood the obstacles he faced growing up and pressed for his admission. Nor should the judgement of Penn admissions be questioned on this one, for, while every school makes some bad calls, Penn got this one right.

The name Kyle Wilcox should have never appeared in this thread. Every Ivy student or grad should aspire to have the grit and the character and ability this young man has demonstrated in everything he has achieved despite having significant hurdles to leap over that most of us never have had to.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Interesting info


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 10:13:47 07/12/17 Wed

Helps illuminate the complex decisions most of us never fully see.

I can't fault Princeton for deciding how to allocate its resources among many worthy competing demands based on information they had. I expect the class had a full share of "risks", whether sports related or not. I can only applaud Penn, and most importantly this young person, for granting and making the most of the opportunity.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Agreed


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:36:10 07/12/17 Wed


Perhaps it was unfair to cite Wilcox, and I also am gladdened to hear that all worked out to him.

I assume that you don't dispute the larger point, though--namely, that BCCDP can get guys that would not pass admission at HYP?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Go Green.


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 10:42:09 07/12/17 Wed

AsiaSunset, you raise a good point. For those of us actively involved the admissions process, you will discover many surprises in admissions decision processes, as well as many students like Kyle Wilcox who flourish in college once they are given the resources offered by the Ivy experiences. Our admissions offices overall do a remarkable job. Thanks for this insight.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Go Green.


Author:
Warrior II
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Date Posted: 17:15:51 07/13/17 Thu

I do dispute the premise that HYP are more difficult from an admission standpoint for football players. It is true that schools with a wider band 1 are theoretically at a disadvantage but you have to remember that those schools can pick whom they want for the two slots. Therefore it cannot be said that a third kid who is a band 2 at one or more of the other schools could not be admitted to HYP. He could easily be admitted in Band 1 if the coaches wanted
I agree that Wilcox is a bad example to show that HYP Is more rigorous than the other schools regarding admissions

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Wrong


Author:
Pluto
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Date Posted: 18:55:14 07/20/17 Thu

You are wrong that schools with a higher AI are not more difficult for a coach in football admissions than a school with a lower AI. Forcing a school to admit only two out of three recruits it wants while another school can admit all three is an obvious reflection of the higher AI at the former school and this is purely an academic standard. The same thing happens to a degree across higher bands.

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[> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 14:29:00 07/11/17 Tue

Call it what you want..........but for many years Ivy League football has been a balanced conference. Unfortunately Murphy has driven a Mack truck through recruiting loop holes. When Kent Austin who came from the SEC conference to coach at Cornell he repeatedly said The SEC had a lot more parity than the Ivy League because everyone knew the rules. Matching FI packages only gets second pickings. It won't change though as Robbin Harris is a very weak ED.

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[> [> Subject: You've said this before. Would like to see it in public


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:00:51 07/11/17 Tue


You could very well be correct that Austin "repeatedly" claimed that the SEC had more parity than the Ivy League. But I'd like to see such a statement from Austin to that effect that was reported by the media.

I mean, four Ivy teams have claimed part of the Ivy championship in the past two seasons. That isn't bad parity...

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: You've said this before. Would like to see it in public


Author:
WarriorI II
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Date Posted: 17:44:01 07/11/17 Tue

3 schools

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Four Schools


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 19:07:39 07/11/17 Tue


2016: Penn/Princeton

2015: Penn/Harvard/Dartmouth

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Four Schools


Author:
Warrior Ii
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Date Posted: 21:18:54 07/11/17 Tue

I stand corrected. Sorry to contradict.

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[> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
Able Beach
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Date Posted: 18:03:43 07/11/17 Tue

The biggest disparity currently is the relationship between the admissions office and the football program. At some schools, a 3rd bander with a 3.2 GPA and no AP classes can be admitted because they fit a band. Other school's admissions will laugh at this recruit. Another example would be a first band with a 3.9 GPA, an impressive course load, but struggled on the verbal in testing. Some admissions will tell the staff the recruit needs to do A, B, and C in their senior year to be accepted. Another school will just say keep your grades up, come to camp, and we will offer you. If I'm the recruit, I am naturally going to favor the school not making me jump academic hoops my senior year.

Also, I'm not going to complain about Harvard having so many full ride financial aid players. That just shows their coaching staff is doing an excellent job of targeting recruits with football options, and a financial situation where tuition will not be an issue in their decision. Give me the recruit where Harvard as an option fell into their lap over the recruit whose been groomed to go Ivy their whole life.

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[> [> Subject: Re: harvard recruits


Author:
Warrior II
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Date Posted: 11:04:28 07/12/17 Wed

There are individual cases where the admissions office does not like the looks of a transcript or is concerned about a disciplinary matter at the high school or even outside of school. That probably happens at all the schools in the Ivy League. I don't think that on the basis of these anomalies that it can be reasonably said the one school has tougher admission standards than another.

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[> [> [> Subject: Good explanation of the AI ....


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 16:18:56 07/12/17 Wed

https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Good explanation of the AI ....


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 16:26:10 07/12/17 Wed

That piece is very out of date and includes "facts" that are not operative today.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Such as which?


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 16:39:58 07/12/17 Wed


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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 17:51:16 07/12/17 Wed

The minimum AI hasn't been 171 for years. I believe it is now 183 but Mike James could clarify.

The only individual sport regulated by the league is football which remains banded as has been explained in detail in other threads on this board.

All other sports are lumped together and must be managed by each school as they see fit, so long as the total pool of "non football" recruited athletes averages out at one standard deviation below the mean. So if a school wants to average 195 in basketball because the average AI for their fencing team is 235, that's up to them.

I have no idea how Harvard or any other Ivy manages their pool across their non football sports. I do believe at Penn that not all teams are assigned the same AI number to manage to.

AI boosters are still utilized to build certain team averages. Additionally the league used to allow cases of below minimum AI admission if schools submitted a request and substantiated their rationale. I believe this practice also was stopped years ago.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 18:06:39 07/12/17 Wed

Thanks for the AI explanation Asia. Could you also explain the matching financial aid rules?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 18:14:12 07/12/17 Wed

Supposedly you can only match a written fin aid offer from the fin aid office of another Ivy, but I suspect if a school is competing with Harvard for a sought after recruit, schools may be making Harvard like offers without having that written piece of paper in front of them. I say this not with knowledge but merely because I see the commitment cycle advancing each year and I doubt schools are waiting to see something in writing to lock down a recruit.

But - I really don't have the facts here. It's just what I suspect is happening out there.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
New Dad
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Date Posted: 21:34:48 07/12/17 Wed

Each school is different, and assumedly this varies by recruit as well, but most schools in the Ivy will provide a financial aid offer using a more generous school's formula if the recruit can show some level of "genuine recruiting interest" (personal emails or letters, OV invites, etc) from the more generous school.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 08:02:17 07/13/17 Thu

Thank you

I sensed this was the case

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Such as which?


Author:
mrjames
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Date Posted: 17:02:03 07/14/17 Fri

AI floor is 183 now. Has transitioned through the following levels in the 15 years I've been following the league:

169
171
176
178
183

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The effect of "recentering" test scores


Author:
Diogenes (mrjames)
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Date Posted: 19:08:58 07/29/17 Sat

Would seem to be forcing up the AI, but not as much as forcing up the test scores themselves? Don't know if that is true, but if the increase in AI is lagging the increase in test scores due to "recentering", doesn't that mean it is easier to meet the AI minimums?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The effect of "recentering" test scores


Author:
mrjames
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Date Posted: 21:33:13 07/29/17 Sat

Indeed. I do believe that the arbitrage between the ACT and SAT (the ACT was bumping AI scores up relative to the SAT scores of the same prospect) led to the most recent bump of the floor. That hasn't been reported to my knowledge, however.

It was widely reported that the last big bump (171 to 176) was due to the gaming of the arbitrage between class rank and GPA.

For the football folks on the board - I have zero clue what this means for banding. Would be interesting if some of the football folks could dig in on that.

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[> Subject: For John Harvard


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 19:42:07 07/12/17 Wed

Except in a year when all 8 schools have the same AI, which has probably never happened, you are absolutely talking to the right college counsellor.

Hypothetically, assume the AI Floor is 176.

Assume that School A's lowest band is 176-187.
Assume School B's lowest band is 176-190.

If both schools want the same 3 recruits, who happen to have AIs of 179, 183, and 188, School B can only take two of them. School A can take all three, since the recruit at 188 fits into its next lowest band.

There have been many years when, working through the bands and over four years, some schools with lower AIs could, in theory, fill a two-deep with players schools with higher AIs could not admit.

Beyond the AI, historically, football admissions has also been affected by the relative timeliness of an admissions office allowing offers to be made. And it has been affected by how "tough" an admissions office is on recruits who fit into a band, especially the lower ones. Just because a recruit fits into a band does not assure the admissions office will accept him.

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[> [> Subject: Re: For John Harvard


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 20:32:09 07/12/17 Wed

That should be: "since the recruit at 188 fits into its next highest band."

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: For ME


Author:
John Harvard
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Date Posted: 22:21:32 07/13/17 Thu

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually, the college counselor was speaking in the context of women's basketball.

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[> [> Subject: Re: For John Harvard


Author:
Pluto
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Date Posted: 18:54:05 07/18/17 Tue

In theory, you could have filled more than a two deep on some of the Ivy League teams with football players who were academically unreachable by ones with higher AIs. Theory is one thing, but in practice did this ever happen? I agree that the AI has limited the range of some of the schools ability to get the same kids as others with a lower AI, but in practice was it ever this bad?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: For John Harvard


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 15:40:46 07/20/17 Thu

Historically, at least, your first sentence is correct. In practice, no coach or administrator ever mentioned a total count, in response to your question. Cheers.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: True, no coach or administrator ever said that, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:46:32 07/20/17 Thu


... feel free to ask Keith Elias his opinions on this topic.

:)

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[> Subject: Some Penn Posters Are Fun


Author:
EliTown
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Date Posted: 10:21:29 07/29/17 Sat

What is it with some Penn posters?

Its obvious that in football the Academic Index makes it easier for some schools to get players they want than for other schools. That any one of the players can get in to each school theoretically or in fact does not mean all of them can do so once the AI is applied. If you understand the AI. Honest Penn posters know this.

The role that the difference in academic standards plays in results on the field is a separate issue. Lots of debate on that. But on the question of whether there have been different standards, it is not honestly debatable.

And Princeton sounds like it made a stupid decision on Wilcox. But stupid or not, it sounds like it was based on their view that he could not do the academic work at Princeton for lack of a support system, not because he did not fit into an AI band. Call it a dumb decision, but that is still a decision made on academic standards at that school.

One school can decide not to admit any football player with less than 2200 on the SATs. It may be really dumb to turn down a football player with 2190 that every other school admits. But that is the application of a higher standard. You have to separate what is an academic standard from whether that standard is a smart one or not.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Some Penn Posters Are Fun


Author:
Warrior II
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Date Posted: 18:03:11 07/29/17 Sat

The postings on the subject focused on the statement that a kid admitted to school X could not get into school Y. I think your posting recognizes that is not possible. I think you're posting is otherwise generally correct .although as you imply the effect in actual practice is not known.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Some Penn Posters Are Fun


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 22:24:21 07/31/17 Mon

I'm interested to know your credentials to decide who should get into what school and what the criteria should be. The admissions offices of all these schools spend 24/7 making life determining decisions which hopefully look beyond the numbers but you feel you can second guess those decisions ...based on what?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Some Penn Posters Are Fun


Author:
Warrior II
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Date Posted: 10:26:45 08/01/17 Tue

Once a kid is above the floor, the decision is subjective. I know a few instances where a disciplinary issue in Ihigh school has resulted in a rejection from school x but was not treated the same by school Y after further investigation of the matter.. no criticism of the decision in either case so second-guessing is not a factor. They only second-guessing I have seen in the postings lately involves Wilcox

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Stuff like this...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:31:54 08/01/17 Tue


http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/6/5/2021-offers-rescinded-memes/

Would be curious to know where those folks ended up...

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: What does this have to do with Ivy sports?


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:05:21 08/01/17 Tue

And no "Gosh, it might involve athletes, let's speculate!!!"

You always claim to be a fan of enforcing Board rules. Here's one: "Ivy League sports fans are welcome to use this Ivy League message board to post and discuss Ivy League sports"

Holtsie always gets spanked for his supposed straying.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Here's a rule you could start following...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:09:29 08/01/17 Tue


"Please be respectful and enjoy the board."

:)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I mean...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:12:28 08/01/17 Tue


I didn't jump all over you for your Kyrie Irving post an hour ago.

Lighten up, dude.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I mean...


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:20:07 08/01/17 Tue

Kyrie post was in response to importance of alumni networks. I'm no Harvard defender, but yours was out of the blue, and out of bounds (gratuitous sports reference).

You chide anyone for breaking rules important to you. Don't be hypocritical.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Likewise...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:33:08 08/01/17 Tue


My post was in response to Warrior's observation that kids may be turned away by admissions committee for subjective reasons even though they have the requisite scores.

Either try to keep up, or take your own advice and don't be hypocritical.

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