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Subject: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 14:55:01 07/12/17 Wed

The recent lengthy threads about Columbia and Chicago both reflect a larger phenomenon. For over a century, HYP stood relatively unchallenged at the apex of American higher education. Other institutions were also great, but those three had the best brand names, led by the fairest of them all, Harvard.

In the last three decades, two developments have disrupted that equilibrium:

(1) Stanford has both triggered and ridden the wave of technology and wealth emanating from Silicon Valley to crash the party. In the eyes of some, Stanford is already the greatest American university and the percentage of knowledgeable people who hold that view is likely increasing to the likely eventual end point where Stanford wins a plurality, if not a majority, of opinions.

(2) There is not a single major college ranking out in the cacophony of a dozen loudly shouting, competing college lists which ranks Harvard above Princeton. While Princeton is of course also a member of HYP, the fact that US News has ranked the "newcomers" from New Jersey above fair Harvard for two decades chips away at the previous mindset that college reputations are immutable.

Fans and alumni from even newer newcomers like Columbia and, surprisingly, Chicago now ask themselves, if Stanford and Princeton can shuffle the deck, why can't we?

So they seize upon the easy to embrace statistics they like, such as admissions and matriculation yield rates. While the use of these particular statistics is analytically misleading for reasons specific to Columbia and Chicago, the mere fact that we are having this discussion at all speaks to a remarkable glacial change: The hegemony of HYP which had existed in popular culture really since the late 19th century has changed more in the past three decades than it has in the previous century.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Columbia and Stanford


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 17:02:23 07/12/17 Wed

Columbia and Stanford were tied for fifth in the last US News university rankings, with Stanford having, for 2017, the lowest admit rate in the country, and Columbia having the third lowest.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Stanford


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 18:35:06 07/13/17 Thu

A little more on Butler.

A graduate of Columbia College, he was co-winner of the Nobel Peace Prize with Jane Addams, co-founder of Chicago's famous Hull House, in 1931.

He was president of Columbia University for 43 years (1902-1945).

He was also president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (1925-1945) and the American Academy of Arts and Letters (1928-1941), among many other awards and achievements.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Old Lion (ancient history)
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Date Posted: 14:07:27 07/13/17 Thu

Actually, in the 1930s Columbia and Harvard were generally regarded as the two leading academic institutions. Columbia began a period of decline because Nicholas Murray Butler thought that fund raising was unimportant. Butler's legacy resulted in chronic underfunding, along with many years of incompetent leadership, which culminated in the disastrous events of 1968. A long, slow climb back to top ten status did not really reach full strength until the extraordinary period of revitalization of NYC in the 1990s, and the real accelerant has been the 15 year stewardship of Lee Bollinger.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
florida lion
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Date Posted: 14:56:11 07/13/17 Thu

To add to Old Lion's comments, Butler championed the University to the detriment of the College and its athletics. Around the same time, the College had become a less attractive destination for some due to the mass immigration into NYC.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 19:22:27 07/13/17 Thu

Analytically, how do we try to isolate the effect of Bollinger as the accelerant from the backdrop of a New York City which continues to grow in popularity after bottoming out in the early 1990s?

It would have been tough to make lemonade out of lemons as NYC deteriorated from the mid-60s to the late 80s, just as today many applicants want to study at Columbia just to be in the city. NYU's popularity is even higher and, on a relative basis, has increased by more from New York's nadir.

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[> [> [> Subject: Numerus Causus


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 01:41:10 07/14/17 Fri

Numerus Causus is Latin for "closed number." It refers to racial quotas used by Ivy and other elite schools against Jews in the past, and Asians in the present.

Florida Lion's post above mentioned "mass immigrations," which prompted me to share with you what follows.

As one who came to Columbia College via Andover and Kansas, I remember the fascination of long afternoons exploring the Lower East Side where multitudes of Jewish families had come many year before from Ellis Island to make their homes. I should add that when I was at the College (1962-1966), the percentage of Jewish students was around 40%, the same as Harvard College had at that same town.

That's the good news.

I am now compelled to share with you Columbia's nefarious complicity in using racial quotas against Jews. I refer to the establishment by Columbia in 1928 of Seth Low Junior College where the College dumped even their brightest applicants who were not admitted because they were Jews. Seth Low was a two-year school and did not award a diploma. Instead, Seth Low students were allowed to matriculate to Columbia Extension School (the precursor to the School of General Studies). Those who graduated received a B.S. degree, not the B.A. degree that College graduates received.
Issac Asimov, the world-renown writer, was one of many brilliant students who was denied admission to the College because he was Jewish, not white, rich, Protestant, or a legacy. Though he later graduated from Columbia University with B.S., Masters, and Doctorate degrees, when asked about his experience at Seth Low Junior College, he replied, "It was humiliating." Seth Low Junior College closed circa 1936.

Hitler's Kristallnacht came two years later, in 1938.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> Subject: Same could be said for Penn


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:05:41 07/14/17 Fri


Penn's rise in the USNWR rankings pretty much coincide with Philadelphia's becoming a nicer place to live.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 08:07:13 07/14/17 Fri

Sad history, Tod. Thanks for enlightening us. I wonder, though, whether Harvard really had 40% Jewish students in the 1960's. Do you recall where you found that stat?
Another thing in the mix about Yale, at least, is its admissions shift in the early 1960's, brought on by Kingman Brewster and R. Insley Clarke. That was when the school's emphasis changed from New England prep legacies to the top students in public schools across the country. The New Yorker had an article about George Bush/43 and how this change, which came while he was on campus, affected him. To me this suggests that while HYP were where the WASP establishment sent its kids, and therefore had a certain prestige and cache, their reputations were not based primarily on academic rigor. Chicago, Columbia and CCNY, (and others?) were seen as tougher academically. The Brewster/Clarke initiative reflected an intention to make Yale more competitive and rigorous. Does anyone know if Harvard and Princeton went through similar restructuring and when?
As for NYU, in the 1970's, it was failing. The endowment was down to $25 million, and the undergrad admissions rate was nearly 100%. It was a very safe safety school. It started to turn around when John Brademas left congress, became president, and realized most of the major real estate developers in NYC had gone to NYU and never been asked for money. Brademas created a fundraising juggernaut, brought in more than $1 billion, and got the school back on its feet. As fundraising accelerated, NYU built academic and housing facilities and raided other schools for top faculty promising tremendous support (and great residences in the Village). Now, it's likely on an academic par with some or all of the Ivies. It's a remarkable turnaround story based on financial effort. From being near broke in the 1970's to, in the late 1990's, having more than 40 fully endowed chairs that were unfilled is probably unprecedented.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 09:30:50 07/14/17 Fri

Yes, Jerome Karabel's magnum opus, "The Chosen," about the active policies to limit Jewish enrollment at HYP, makes it clear that those three institutions took no back seat to Columbia in discriminating against Jews. As Tod says, today the exact same thing is being done to Asians.

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[> [> Subject: The Chosen


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 14:23:50 07/14/17 Fri

I didn't read Karabel's book but I remember reading this in HS was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chosen_(Potok_novel)

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[> [> Subject: Re: NYU?


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 17:21:51 07/15/17 Sat

"As fundraising accelerated, NYU built academic and housing facilities and raided other schools for top faculty promising tremendous support (and great residences in the Village). Now, it's likely on an academic par with some or all of the Ivies."

Not close.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: NYU?


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 19:08:16 07/15/17 Sat

Agreed. While NYU's improvement is remarkable, it has a ways to go to catch up with the Ivies academically. NYU has only moved up to #36 on the US News & World Report national university rankings (probably the most reliable ranking). The lowest Ivy ranking is #15.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: NYU?


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 08:24:41 07/16/17 Sun

If you look at the more academically oriented rankings, the ones that focus university-wide on major prize winners, research activity, major publications, etc., NYU ranks significantly higher than Brown and Dartmouth, and not terribly far from the middle of the Ivy League. It's not challenging, HYPC (Columbia), you're right -- yet. It looks like NYU is not quite there in undergraduate education, but the professional schools, STEM activity, and some grad schools are. And in undergrad studies, as at a number of schools, motivated students can cobble together Ivy caliber educations, if not prestige, with the professors they have available. Anecdotal conversations with friends suggest NYU still is stingy with financial aid to most students, especially at its professional schools. It's an interesting case hope story of diagnosis, strategy and execution bearing results.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 14:45:00 07/14/17 Fri

If you are looking at discriminatory practices within the Ivy League during the 60's and 70's, you also can look at within the colleges' elite social clubs admissions practices. For example, if you analyze who was formally admitted into each of Harvard's Final Clubs, Yale's Society Clubs and Princeton's Eating Clubs during the 60's and 70's and compare it to the general student body, you clearly will find discriminatory practices being implemented during this period.

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[> [> Subject: A personal admission


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 14:56:53 07/14/17 Fri

I confess to personally discriminating as to whom I dated. Nowadays I might be sued for being interested only in certain types of women. Or perhaps even for being interested only in women.

But at least religion wasn't a criterion.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: A personal admission


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 19:03:14 07/14/17 Fri

At Penn in my day, fraternities were strictly segregated. The total university population was nearly 50% Jewish, but there were half as many Jewish fraternities as Christian or more accurately non Jewish ones. Both the Jewish and non Jewish broke down into subsets of preppy, jock, Harry high school, dweeby and so. In fact, I recall that there were fraternities that were Jewish nationally. ZBT was one. Though there were fewer sororities, I think the same applied to them.

I have no idea if this still goes on but I would think it must have broken down to some degree. At least I hope it has.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Dartmouth Frats


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 09:25:04 07/15/17 Sat

For me it came down to a choice between I Felta Thigh and Tappa Nu Keg. I choose the latter

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Columbia College Addendum


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 19:18:21 07/15/17 Sat

In 1960 David A. Dudley came to Columbia College from MIT to be the new Dean of Admissions. (This was two years before I matriculated.)

What Dean Dudley did in 1960, which came to be called "Dudley's Follies," (an term with which I do not necessarily concur) is still part of the College's folklore.

Dean Dudley accepted only those applicants who had the highest SAT scores, which resulted in Columbia College's Class of 1964 averringly to have had the highest cumulative SAT score average in the annals of higher education, to that time at least. According to my investigation on the Internet, that class was nearly 80% Jewish.

Many especially influential (read "rich") College alumni took exception (read "were angry as hell") with Dean Dudley; consequently, the Dean was fired, and as I understand it, went to Mississippi to teach in an all-black college.

I, in turn, had to compete academically at times, for two years, with members of the Class of 1964, which, of course, made me a better student, and more importantly, a better human being, as there had been a paucity of Jews both at Andover and my home state, Kansas.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia College Addendum


Author:
Parent
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Date Posted: 08:41:33 07/16/17 Sun

Tod, that is a fascinating and authentic post--thank you for sharing it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia College Addendum


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 14:48:40 07/16/17 Sun

Interesting article. So there has been affirmative actio for WASPs since the 19-teens?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia College Addendum


Author:
Leonlion
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Date Posted: 13:51:33 07/16/17 Sun

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/367910/dudleys-folly-fred-schwarz

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Benjamin Ginsberg's Book on Anti-Semitism in America


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 17:10:54 07/16/17 Sun

Thank you, Leolion, for referencing Ginsberg's book in your post. I read with great interest and alarm all the pages of the book that you included in your post.

The coming of Trump, I regret to say, is a recrudescence in America of the same shameful attitudes and polices Ginsberg recounts in his book: racism, bigotry, nativism, among many other repugnant traits.

One salient example: David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK, endorsed Trump for president, and Trump never disavowed that endorsement. Indeed, Trump, in my opinion, personifies the morally worst characteristics of the human race.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Delusional World of Tod Howard Hawks


Author:
The Lion (Tod Hawks, Holtsledge)
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Date Posted: 10:25:19 07/20/17 Thu

To Holtsledge: Thanks for standing up for your human freedom and rights--and mine--under the U.S. Constitution which is under relentles attack by
a treasonous conspiracy of the "Democratic Party" (sic) and its clueless sheep,
a new strain of very violent sheep. And even more dangerous than the rioting Democrat street mobs in every city and university and is what used to be American journalism, now in lock goose-step with these tyrants.

To Tod Howard Hawks: What's your response to your endorsement for President by David Duke, huh, huh, huh? Come on, what is it, Tod? Do you disavow it, do you, do you, do you?

Trump, with this smelly trap thrown at him as he moved between appointments last year during the Democrat putsch, reacted as I and any honest person would have. "Duke? I haven't heard that name in years. What endorsement?
I haven't heard of any endorsement." (I, a professional observer of public events, added to my own response, "I thought that idiot died 20 years ago.")

Your statement, Tod, that "Trump never disavowed that endorsement" is a
total lie. He disavowed it the same day, several times, as soon as he--like any
rational adult--ascertained that there was some sort of "news" report--or Democrat propaganda- that the long-invisible Duke allegedly had spoken some obscure type of verbal support of Trump, somewhere, some place, some time,
while strangely failing to tell, write or send smoke signals to inform Trump or his campaign staff.

Trump then spent the next two weeks disavowing this mythical endorsement
from a clown not one-trillionth as dangerous as the one who had been destroying this democracy's foundations for the previous eight years.
The next knee-slapper was Trump's "collusion"--Mark Van Doren is rotating in his grave--with the same Russians our Democrat Party has partnered with since 1917.

Finally Tod, your story about Dean Dudley and combatting bias against Jewish applicants to Columbia College is all well and good except that--assuming you're accurate--it's a sequel not the seminal event. I matriculated more than a decade before you did, at the very start of the 50s, and my Class had a large complement of Jewish kids, a good number of whom were my own classmates from one of New York City's elite public high schools.

The NY public schools were excellent back then, and I maintain more rigorous
than Columbia which also was excellent but was "college" not mandatory. If you wanted to slide through a class, it was your loss. That wasn't permitted in the public schools. How soon that changed, in your decade of the 60s, when
"progressive"--ludicrous--ideology was forced upon education.

Also, to your original point which you degraded with your absolute nonsense about Trump, my freshman group at Columbia was not the first to have a large Jewish contingent. The three classes already there when I arrived also were well represented. They had matriculated in the late 40s, so the change occurred long before Dean Dudley in 1960 and your blessed arrival in 1962.

I don't know how early the bias reversal began. Perhaps the many upheavals
of World War 2 played a hand.
.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Delusional World of Tod Howard Hawks


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 17:53:20 07/20/17 Thu

Thanks for spelling my name correctly.

Tod Howard Hawks

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Delusional World of Tod Howard Hawks


Author:
The Lion (Wake Up!)
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Date Posted: 16:51:04 07/21/17 Fri

You're welcome. I'm a meticulous speller, of names and everything else.
However, I have no interest in your self-adoration.
I do have an interest in your proclamations of fake news, however, because they endanger this country's ability to protect my freedom of speech, thought and conscience.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: oh please Todd


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 21:18:19 07/16/17 Sun

worst characteristics of the Human Race
Eh I don't think so. Just might be the gang mentality of Former Pres Obama's home town of Chicago who's mayor just so happens to be his former chief of staff's Rahm Emmanuel. Have you been paying attention or not. Do you know how many murders were committed last yr in Chicago. Real Black on Black Crime something like 700 and they are on a pace to surpass that this yr and are you trying to tell me it's Trump's fault. Give me a break. Wake up man, over 75% of birth's in the black community are out of wedlock. Do you ever wonder why when you see a headline that says 12 yr old kid hit or killed in a drive by shooting at 2 AM why the kid is on the street. I guess Bernie and Kamala Harris will be able solve the problem in 2020

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: oh please Todd


Author:
Colorless raider
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Date Posted: 22:05:51 07/16/17 Sun

So by giving Chicago gangs review are you in fact a fan of Trump?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I am a fan of


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 10:10:10 07/17/17 Mon

Buy American, Hire American, America first, energy independence, exporting of LNG to Europe to lessen Russia's stranglehold on many countries energy supplies, building the Keystone pipeline, building the wall and a rational immigration policy, more pipelines bringing cheap efficient nat gas to NE to lessen dependence on heating oil among other things

I am not a fan of sanctuary cities getting my fed tax dollars, Teachers unions SEIU and ASFCME and other public employee unions colluding with the Dems, The Deep State, the EPA where unelected officials are making policy, activist judges legislating from the bench, Tesla and millionaires in New Canaan getting tax benefits to buy 100k cars, The Clinton News Network, The Clintons who are liars and crooks, MSDNC, Chris Matthews, Colleges not protecting free speech just to name a few

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: great news


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 08:08:08 07/18/17 Tue

it's like a dream come true for me
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/18/union-boss-hundreds-epa-employees-jobs-at-risk.html

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hope you're also a fan of...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:07:21 07/18/17 Tue


College education.

:)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: not for everyone


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 14:04:06 07/18/17 Tue

I am in favor of trade schools apprenticeships etc. Not everyone belongs in college although Bernie and Liz want to sell you that. There is a shortage of skilled welders in this country. I was in the mining business for 35 yrs and even more important than skilled operators and mechanics a welder in the most important skill needed on a surface mine where big iron meets big rock. In the oilfield welders can make 200k /yr

We also need mechanics electricians carpenters etc in this country. A trade is a skill that travels

To add to my list of not a fan of is George Soros, Paul Krugman, Al Sharpton, Black lies Matter, occupy wall street, Joy Reid . Wolfman Blitzer, David Gregory and all of his ilk. Also my lying Sen Richard "I served in Vietnam NOT" Blumenthal and His colleague Chris Murphy who is against selling 100 billion in arms to the Saudis even though Pratt & Whitney and Sikorsky are major employers in CT

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: wanna know why


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 15:30:20 07/19/17 Wed

I dislike Lying CT Sen Blumenthal intensely
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/07/19/democrat-blumenthal-wants-500-million-wounded-ukrainian-soldiers

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: oh please Todd


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 22:23:57 07/16/17 Sun

I spell my first name with one "d."

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ivy League rankings from WSJ - per Tod Howard Hawks twitter:


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 11:32:44 07/17/17 Mon

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ivy-league-schools-ranked-1478109058#livefyre-toggle-SB11485187061602724143504582412420690311222

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: And the national rank...


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 14:17:56 07/17/17 Mon

http://www.wsj.com/graphics/college-rankings-2016/

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[> Subject: Stanford


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 15:32:07 07/17/17 Mon

>(1) Stanford has both triggered and ridden the wave of technology and wealth emanating from Silicon Valley to crash the party.

Stanford has always been a leading U.S. academic institution. Whether it ranks ahead of ives on whatever lists is irrelevant. It's not just tech that makes it an elite university, though that gets a lot of attention of course.

It is true Stanford grads with big ideas capture the fancy of silicon valley funding. However, it is a very broad mix of talent from all over the globe that has made tech what it is.

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[> [> Subject: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 16:28:42 07/17/17 Mon

Might explain why the Ivies are bulking up their engineering departments after decades of neglect. Witness Harvard's new buildings, Cornell's Roosevelt Island campus and Columbia's plans for a data science building on the Manhattanville campus. Engineering can no longer be a step-child if the Ivies want to keep up with the farm.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 18:12:16 07/17/17 Mon

The Ivy Engineering programs aren't top ranked because they don't produce prototypical engineers like schools that rank higher e.g. The Purdue's of the world.

The top Ivy students don't built bridges etc. They gravitate to Wall Street because the pay is so hard to resist.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 21:30:35 07/17/17 Mon

Not sure I agree about Ivy Engineering programs. I think there's been a healthy amount of arrogance about engineering being too practical for the Ivy man (and now woman). The continuing string of success stories out of Silicon Valley has changed all that. Ivy engineering majors may not build bridges, but they are starting companies in biotech and comp. science. Which is a good thing because the world needs more smart and creative engineers, and fewer Wall Streeters.

Also, I'm not sure I agree that top Ivy students gravitate to Wall Street. Top students go to law school and work toward better clerkships, or pursue PhDs in organic chemistry or some other subject. In my experience, finance was often the choice of those who didn't know what they wanted out of life yet. Many started on Wall Start, but "finished" as doctors or along some other career path--and they were much happier for it.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 08:47:16 07/18/17 Tue

Many of the top engineering students at Penn definitely forego classic engineering careers to go work for Wall Street firms or tech companies like Google.

I know Penn has invested heavily in its engineering program, but that won't get reflected in USN&R rankings. That's because the people who do the input are from classic engineering programs across the country that actually do produce the guys that build the bridges and other things more closely associated with what they know and what their graduates end up doing.

A similar anomaly occurs in all of these rankings. The USN&R rankings of best colleges and universities heavily weights academic reputation. Yet - the deans and provosts from across the country who answer these surveys and assign scores don't really know the schools they are evaluating. They only know the power of their brands. So those surveyed constantly give some schools the highest rating even though it's unlikely that they can name 10 professors at any of the universities they apply a score to. It's kind of a joke - but it works to the advantage of the Ivies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 09:23:05 07/18/17 Tue

Asia, you're stuck on Civil Engineering. Today's "classical" career could include programming at Google or developing new biomedical devices.

My Dad taught engineering for over 40 years at Columbia. It was pretty clear that the engineering school was a novelty at CU, a small gem, but a program that should stay small lest it draw attention from Columbia's other professional schools. Only recently has the central admin seen the light and let the faculty grow. And guess what, Columbia engineering has been climbing the rankings. You can see the same at Cornell and Harvard. I imagine the Penn central admin is also watching Stanford's success and drawing up plans for expansion.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 11:06:06 07/18/17 Tue

That's not the point. The ranking is done exclusively by a peer survey with input from all over the country by people who know little about what is actually going on at our schools.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 11:42:14 07/18/17 Tue

Peer assessment is just a portion of the US News ranking.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/engineering-schools-methodology

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 11:48:47 07/18/17 Tue

You're looking at Graduate schools

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/undergraduate-engineering-programs-methodology

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 13:01:30 07/18/17 Tue

Yes, but the top 30 schools on the graduate and undergraduate schools are largely the same, and schools tend to be positioned in the same relative locations in both lists.

I'd bet that the graduate list, which has much wider coverage, tends to inform the undergraduate list (in that deans and school counselors seeing a school ranking higher in the grad list will tend to push said school higher in his/her ranking for undergraduate engineering.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 13:24:39 07/18/17 Tue

You raise an excellent point. First, you would think that having all 8 Ivies ranked in the top 15 of US News overall undergraduate colleges and the intangible prestige associated with the Ivies would be positive factors related to our engineering ranking

Second, the strength of graduate level engineering programs can have important synergistic benefits to undergraduate programs, much like in other STEM fields. The undergraduate, graduate and faculty members often collaborate on projects. Thus, it will be helpful for those Ivies who have graduate engineering programs to strengthen both their undergraduate and graduate programs.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: FTFY


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:05:24 07/18/17 Tue

"Which is a good thing because the world needs more smart and creative engineers, and fewer Wall Streeters and lawyers."

(Can't forget them)

It's good for a university to have liberal arts majors, but you are right that for too long the ivies have pooh-poohed the value of careers of those who create (who BTW tend to disproportionately fund the endowments paying those who cheerlead the pooh-poohing and the projects they want). Seems to be changing. Hopefully is changing, anyway.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ivies relative ranking in the undergraduate engineering world


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:16:28 07/18/17 Tue

I find this discussion of the Ivy League's comparative engineering strength to be fascinating. Given the ever-growing importance of engineering in business and technology today, it is surprisingly to see the Ivy League's relatively lower ranking in this critically important academic sector.

Looking at the US News ranking of undergraduate engineering programs, the Ivy League has a lower overall ranking compared to the Big Ten and Pac 12 conferences. None of the Ivy universities place in the top 8 engineering programs and half of the Ivy universities rank below the top 25. It also is interesting how public universities place about half of the top engineering programs.

Clearly, the Ivies are placing increasing emphasis in this field and are steadily improving their engineering programs. Most importantly, the Ivies have the financial resources to continue to close this gap. I could be wrong, but this may be a factor in why some of our athletic departments are not getting the resources attention that us sports oriented alumni might like. Recruitment of engineering and other STEM scholars may have become the new golden boys (and girls) for the Ivy League of today.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivies relative ranking in the undergraduate engineering world


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 17:35:07 07/18/17 Tue

I have not looked at any college course catalogs in decades but I would find it very hard to believe the ivies along with every higher education environment everywhere in the world has not adjusted to the needs and demands of integrating tech (aka "engineering") into their mainstream.

It also seems surprising "wall street" is of that keen an interest to young people these days (except those seeking a traditional job through traditional means doing traditional things). The world has changed with different skill sets, different working environments, a vast shift in opportunities in various sectors. I am out of touch with today's generation in every conceivable way but I would love to see the stats on how many are gung ho for traditional yesterday's career paths.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 17:27:41 07/17/17 Mon

I was curious to look at the Wall Street Journal's methodology for their rankings for the top 100 colleges in 2017. While not an expert, I was very surprised to discover that someone did not seem to carefully check their statistics. To illustrate this point, about half of their top 15 ranked colleges (Stanford, Penn, Yale, Harvard, Duke, Johns Hopkins, and Northwestern) in their most recent 2017 ranking have dramatically inaccurate information for the number of undergraduate students. For example, the WSJ determined that Harvard has 14,618 undergraduates, which is off by only 118%.

Maybe the WSJ should have their staff enroll in one of the Ivies data analytics classes that are so popular today.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 18:10:02 07/17/17 Mon

The Harvard Extension School is much larger than anyone knew.

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[> [> Subject: College Rankings Are a High Growth Industry


Author:
Upper Valley
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Date Posted: 17:42:39 07/18/17 Tue

Some of the college rankings out there use methodologies which are questionable at best and farcical at worst. Many of them use raw data which exemplifies "garbage in, garbage out."

Why are presumably smart people using shaky methodologies? Well, unlike selling steel or breakfast cereal, in college rankings, providers don't want to sell exactly what the other guy is selling. And yet because the products are so popular, everybody wants to sell something.

Of all the methodologies, I think that US News does the most credible job of balancing hard data and the softer qualitative aspects of being on campus A versus campus B. The problem of course is that now colleges are managing themselves to the US News rankings.

So US News is a victim of its own success. Because they are transparent to their criterion, any college can manage to the most important variables. Across all colleges, that has been a good thing as a little competitive fire has been lit. But individual colleges can and have become good at gaming the numbers.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 18:16:44 07/17/17 Mon

Actually, the WSJ editor just told me that they based their enrollment on the number of university t-shirts and sweat shirts sold at the student book store. That does seem fair,

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Uptown
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Date Posted: 20:57:37 07/17/17 Mon

I confess. I am puzzled that grown men give a rip about such things as these rankings.

Then again, when it was time for my kids to search for colleges I forbade the use of these things.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Old Lion (then and now)
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Date Posted: 11:03:05 07/19/17 Wed

Read Harvard Prof. Stephen Greenblatt's article in last week's New Yorker. Great stuff about Yale during his freshman year in 1961 and college today.

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[> [> [> Subject: Joseph Albeck and Stephen Greenblatt


Author:
Tod Howard Hawks
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Date Posted: 17:09:33 07/19/17 Wed

Prof. Greenblatt reminds me of my friend Joe Albeck, a brilliant and kind young man, who was a classmate of mine at Columbia College, Class of 1966.

Joe graduated at the top of our class and attended Harvard Medical School. He served for many years as Professor of Psychiatry at his medical school alma mater.

Joe changed my life. Sometime during our junior year at Columbia, we had lunch together in John Jay cafeteria. We chatted. Both of us had been tapped for membership in Nacoms, the College's oldest senior society. I had accepted, Joe had not, and he explained to me why. Joe, who had established the Double Discovery program, an exemplary outreach program to serve and help the young in Harlem, said Nacoms was an elitist organization, and he wanted nothing to do with it. He was right. In later years, I came to see, and more fully understand, the simple power he had shared with me many years before. I wound up giving my Nacoms ring to a Russian woman whom I had met in Moscow in 1991.

Joe Albeck exemplified the best about Columbia College. As it turned out, both of us also became poets. Joe published a number of his poems in a book that he sold to raise for an organization he had founded to help children of survivors of the Holocaust. His grandparents had been murdered in Nazi Germany.

I am sorry Prof. Greenblatt didn't matriculate to Columbia instead of Yale. Maybe Joe and Stephen would have met. Maybe they met at Harvard. I hope so.

Tod Howard Hawks CC 66

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 14:50:47 07/19/17 Wed

Thank you Old Lion for suggesting we read Professor Greenblat's article in the New Yorker titled Shakespeare's Cure for Xenophobia. It was enlightening to read about his first-hand the prejudices he had to overcome at Yale in the 1960's. Like most of us, I can grumble and make fun of political correctness in the Ivy League. Yet, reading articles like this reminds me why activists can feel so passionate about social change. Fortunately, the Ivy League has evolved for the better.

Enjoy the read

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/07/10/shakespeares-cure-for-xenophobia

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[> [> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
Old Lion (Thanks)
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Date Posted: 11:49:52 07/23/17 Sun

For posting. I would have done so myself but it is beyond my technological level of competence. I wish that there would be more Stephen Greenblatts and fewer PC professors. The PC agenda is driven by the faculty. On a decidedly non-PC front I and other Columbians of my generation are mourning the passing of the great Ted de Bary, scholar, gentleman, teacher and fervent Columbia football fan. I remember seeing him at a game as recently as last Fall, all of 96 years old, as he was being helped to the Maniatty Lounge. And when the Greenblatts and other great scholars leave the scene, I shudder to think what will fill the void.

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[> Subject: Re: Columbia and Chicago Threads: Unraveling of HYP Hegemony


Author:
anonymous
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Date Posted: 17:48:57 07/23/17 Sun

Excellent post and agree with vast majority of it. Have gone through recruiting experience recently w/two kids having mixed FBS and FCS (Ivy/Patriot) offers and can't AGREE MORE with the message of "don't pick a school because of minor football/sports program differences". More importantly, for kids with academic choices, DON'T PICK A SCHOOL FOR ANY FOOTBALL REASON! In a very short time, we've seen multiple kids in son's class leave programs (and schools) because football played too big a role in selection, and each case has been somewhat ugly for the entire family. Truth is, coaches are fickle, favorites constantly change, playtime depends on a lot of factors and injuries can change EVERYTHING in an instant. Parents and prospects should also know that the Ivy rosters are WAY too big (larger than FBS and most FCS schools), w/most kids never getting a valid shot to play just because of the numbers.
On another issue, must say that at this point, Stanford really is way ahead of Ivies right w/respect to a high value quality education especially for student/athletes. It's a shame, but the Ivies are too caught up various with "soft" issues like social justice and other arrogant attitudes that lead to a subtle but ever-present hostility toward athletes. As would be expected, these issues are ignored by admin, and generally "hidden" so prospective student/athletes and parents MUST ask candid and hard questions on visits. But having said this, the Ivies can still offer amazing experiences to the more "self-directed" students. Related, Stanford looks to be peaking, with many of the same issues creeping in along with stress from the excessive competition that comes with being the current "IT school". Must say, it's always shocking to see 4/5star athletes w/4+ GPAs leave Stanford because they can't get a shot.

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