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Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 21:30:35 07/17/17 Mon
In reply to: AsiaSunset 's message, "Re: Engineering and the Ivies" on 18:12:16 07/17/17 Mon

Not sure I agree about Ivy Engineering programs. I think there's been a healthy amount of arrogance about engineering being too practical for the Ivy man (and now woman). The continuing string of success stories out of Silicon Valley has changed all that. Ivy engineering majors may not build bridges, but they are starting companies in biotech and comp. science. Which is a good thing because the world needs more smart and creative engineers, and fewer Wall Streeters.

Also, I'm not sure I agree that top Ivy students gravitate to Wall Street. Top students go to law school and work toward better clerkships, or pursue PhDs in organic chemistry or some other subject. In my experience, finance was often the choice of those who didn't know what they wanted out of life yet. Many started on Wall Start, but "finished" as doctors or along some other career path--and they were much happier for it.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 08:47:16 07/18/17 Tue

Many of the top engineering students at Penn definitely forego classic engineering careers to go work for Wall Street firms or tech companies like Google.

I know Penn has invested heavily in its engineering program, but that won't get reflected in USN&R rankings. That's because the people who do the input are from classic engineering programs across the country that actually do produce the guys that build the bridges and other things more closely associated with what they know and what their graduates end up doing.

A similar anomaly occurs in all of these rankings. The USN&R rankings of best colleges and universities heavily weights academic reputation. Yet - the deans and provosts from across the country who answer these surveys and assign scores don't really know the schools they are evaluating. They only know the power of their brands. So those surveyed constantly give some schools the highest rating even though it's unlikely that they can name 10 professors at any of the universities they apply a score to. It's kind of a joke - but it works to the advantage of the Ivies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 09:23:05 07/18/17 Tue

Asia, you're stuck on Civil Engineering. Today's "classical" career could include programming at Google or developing new biomedical devices.

My Dad taught engineering for over 40 years at Columbia. It was pretty clear that the engineering school was a novelty at CU, a small gem, but a program that should stay small lest it draw attention from Columbia's other professional schools. Only recently has the central admin seen the light and let the faculty grow. And guess what, Columbia engineering has been climbing the rankings. You can see the same at Cornell and Harvard. I imagine the Penn central admin is also watching Stanford's success and drawing up plans for expansion.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 11:06:06 07/18/17 Tue

That's not the point. The ranking is done exclusively by a peer survey with input from all over the country by people who know little about what is actually going on at our schools.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 11:42:14 07/18/17 Tue

Peer assessment is just a portion of the US News ranking.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/engineering-schools-methodology

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
AsiaSunset
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Date Posted: 11:48:47 07/18/17 Tue

You're looking at Graduate schools

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/undergraduate-engineering-programs-methodology

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
ungvar
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Date Posted: 13:01:30 07/18/17 Tue

Yes, but the top 30 schools on the graduate and undergraduate schools are largely the same, and schools tend to be positioned in the same relative locations in both lists.

I'd bet that the graduate list, which has much wider coverage, tends to inform the undergraduate list (in that deans and school counselors seeing a school ranking higher in the grad list will tend to push said school higher in his/her ranking for undergraduate engineering.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Engineering and the Ivies


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 13:24:39 07/18/17 Tue

You raise an excellent point. First, you would think that having all 8 Ivies ranked in the top 15 of US News overall undergraduate colleges and the intangible prestige associated with the Ivies would be positive factors related to our engineering ranking

Second, the strength of graduate level engineering programs can have important synergistic benefits to undergraduate programs, much like in other STEM fields. The undergraduate, graduate and faculty members often collaborate on projects. Thus, it will be helpful for those Ivies who have graduate engineering programs to strengthen both their undergraduate and graduate programs.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: FTFY


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 11:05:24 07/18/17 Tue

"Which is a good thing because the world needs more smart and creative engineers, and fewer Wall Streeters and lawyers."

(Can't forget them)

It's good for a university to have liberal arts majors, but you are right that for too long the ivies have pooh-poohed the value of careers of those who create (who BTW tend to disproportionately fund the endowments paying those who cheerlead the pooh-poohing and the projects they want). Seems to be changing. Hopefully is changing, anyway.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ivies relative ranking in the undergraduate engineering world


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:16:28 07/18/17 Tue

I find this discussion of the Ivy League's comparative engineering strength to be fascinating. Given the ever-growing importance of engineering in business and technology today, it is surprisingly to see the Ivy League's relatively lower ranking in this critically important academic sector.

Looking at the US News ranking of undergraduate engineering programs, the Ivy League has a lower overall ranking compared to the Big Ten and Pac 12 conferences. None of the Ivy universities place in the top 8 engineering programs and half of the Ivy universities rank below the top 25. It also is interesting how public universities place about half of the top engineering programs.

Clearly, the Ivies are placing increasing emphasis in this field and are steadily improving their engineering programs. Most importantly, the Ivies have the financial resources to continue to close this gap. I could be wrong, but this may be a factor in why some of our athletic departments are not getting the resources attention that us sports oriented alumni might like. Recruitment of engineering and other STEM scholars may have become the new golden boys (and girls) for the Ivy League of today.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivies relative ranking in the undergraduate engineering world


Author:
al's wingman
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Date Posted: 17:35:07 07/18/17 Tue

I have not looked at any college course catalogs in decades but I would find it very hard to believe the ivies along with every higher education environment everywhere in the world has not adjusted to the needs and demands of integrating tech (aka "engineering") into their mainstream.

It also seems surprising "wall street" is of that keen an interest to young people these days (except those seeking a traditional job through traditional means doing traditional things). The world has changed with different skill sets, different working environments, a vast shift in opportunities in various sectors. I am out of touch with today's generation in every conceivable way but I would love to see the stats on how many are gung ho for traditional yesterday's career paths.

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