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Subject: FCS playoffs


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 10:06:23 09/07/17 Thu

Well written YDN opinion on Ivy participation in the playoffs,
though I am still neutral on it.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/09/07/lets-talk-about-playoffs/

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Replies:
[> Subject: Thank you RIW


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 11:09:03 09/07/17 Thu

What a grand opportunity to add a 11 th game, plus to play in the playoffs.? Ivy League is and idea that has expired and is past its prime. It needs life to be breathed back into it , to make it revelent again.? Would love to see a Ivy League team on a national venue.!!! PLAYING FOOTBALL and Kickin Ass.!!!!!!!

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[> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 14:35:04 09/07/17 Thu

This is a well written and well reasoned article. I can't see how the Ivy Council of Presidents could refute these arguments if open hearings were held on this issue at their next meeting. The current Ivy League ban on participating in the FCS playoffs is completely arbitrary and capricious. It is also discriminatory to these student athletes who deserve the same right to compete for a National Championship in their sport that all other Ivy League student athletes have.
The purpose of the Ivy League was to de-emphasize football. This was done at a time when Ivy League school were winning Heisman trophies and participating in the Rose Bowl. The concern was that to continue to compete at this level was corrupting to the original and primary purpose of the school, which is education.
The goal to de-emphasize football in the Ivy League was accomplished more effectively by the NCAA then the Ivy agreement ever did, when the NCAA downgraded Ivy League football to IAA status in 1982. The Ivy League no longer needs to be worried about competing with the likes of Alabama and Ohio State for a National Championship, or of the corrupting influence of huge money from the bowl games. Instead they can compete with their Patriot League counterparts and other similar small schools for a national championship on a much smaller scale.
Bans on post season play in Football are anachronistic. It's well past time for a change.

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[> [> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Old Eli
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Date Posted: 15:55:27 09/07/17 Thu

Well put.

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[> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Old Blue
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Date Posted: 16:01:06 09/07/17 Thu

Gentleman; the sound of this chime is the perpetual broken record. Regrettably, the bombastic ancient eight monarchsl live in the dark ages with no renaissance on this issue in sight.

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[> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 21:33:38 09/07/17 Thu

One of the best Ivy League football articles I have read in recent years. I couldn't agree more and thanks for the post. I just wish the Ivy League presidents would actually read the article and take some action. LOL

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[> [> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Bob S
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Date Posted: 14:50:40 09/09/17 Sat

Cornell, Penn, and Princeton were the only schools who could be considered big time back before the deemphasis. Cornell has been pretty much mediocre save for theMarinaro or Baughn years ever since. Looking back it is as if current Ivy President's decided Field Hockey was "overemphasized" and decided to limit scheduling and not allow it's schools to play in the NCAAs.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 08:51:20 09/10/17 Sun

Bob S: It's difficult to fix exactly when "the time of the de emphasis" was. The last year the Ivies played a role in the national conversation was 1951.
The first Top 20 poll that hear had Princeton, Penn and Cornell starting the season at 18, 19, and 20 respectively. Princeton got as high as No. 4, and ended the season ranked no. 6. Penn left the Top 20 after an opening loss to No. 5 Cal, 35-6, never to reappear in the poll that year. Cornell was ranked at various times, falling out of poll due to mid season thumping by Princeton 53-15, perhaps Kazmaier's greatest game. Cornell did reappear in the poll after this defeat but finished the season unranked, despite beating Michigan and Syracuse.That year Penn finished unrankrd but beat national powers Army and Navy.

When Harvard and Yale played these teams (the football Big Three Ivies at that time), they got thumped. Cornell beat Yale and Harvard in '51 by a combined score of 69-6, for example. H and Y had stopped playin Penn, they were too good. H and Y basically used their prestige to overcome weak hand in football, and extort surrender from these three powers by means of 1954 Ivy Agreement, which neutered our League forever.

By the way, on the eve of our sport's downgrade, Yale carried the Ivy banner by upsetting No. 19 Army 14-12 before a sold out Yale Bowl crowd.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: a little later than that


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 09:57:38 09/10/17 Sun

Dartmouth's undefeated Lambert trophy winning 1970 team wound up ranked #14 nationally I believe

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dartmouth 1965 undefeated Lambert Trophy received AP top ten votes


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 10:58:00 09/10/17 Sun

In 1965, AP ranked only top ten. Dartmouth received top ten votes but not enough to make top ten.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Yale /AP poll


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 10:12:36 09/10/17 Sun

Here's a link to play with: shows the years when the teams were ranked by the AP. Yale and Army were both ranked 19 when they played in 55. Yale's undefeated and unscored upon team in 59 was ranked 13 - until they lost to Dartmouth. The great 1960 team end of year ranking was 14.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/yale/1960-schedule.html

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: AP poll 1960


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 11:34:14 09/10/17 Sun

Another interesting link below. Shows Navy which shared the Lambert Trophy with Yale was ranked #4 to Yale's #14.
I still believe Yale (led by Tom Singelton) could have beaten Navy led by Heisman winner Joe Bellino. It would certainly have been an entertaining game had they played for the trophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_NCAA_University_Division_football_rankings

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Mike Pyle was the captain of the 1960 Yale team


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 11:48:24 09/10/17 Sun

Played for the Bears all during the 1960's. Might have been the best Ivy player since the formation of the Ivy League

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Mike Pyle was the captain of the 1960 Yale team


Author:
Collorless raider
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Date Posted: 12:19:19 09/10/17 Sun

Played on same hs team with Mike. Great guy!

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: FCS playoffs


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 17:06:32 09/10/17 Sun

I'm very aware of great Ivy teams like Dartmouth '65 and '70 (and Princeton '64 and Yale '68), but it's hard to rank them nationally due to lack of strong out of conference competition. Dartmouth HC Bob Blackman left the Indians after the great 1970 season to accept head job at Illinois. At his first press conference in Champaign Urbana, Blackman ruffled quite a few BIG feathers by giving his honest assessment that Illinois team he inherited "wasn't even close" in talent to his last Dartmouth team.

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[> Subject: Historical computer ratings


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 22:43:05 09/10/17 Sun

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/CF_History.html

Gives another perspective on the teams from long ago, taking quality of opposition into account, arguably better than the pollsters would/did.

Computer ratings for the 1951 season:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1951/CF_1951_Ranking_Best.html
Princeton #16 (between UCLA and Oklahoma)
Penn #32 Cornell #42 Harvard #89 Yale #91 out of 116 Div. 1 teams.

1970:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1970/CF_1970_Ranking_Best.html
Dartmouth 9-0-0 team ranked #44.
Illinois ranked #56.

1965:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1965/CF_1965_Ranking_Best.html
Dartmouth 9-0-0 team ranked #17.

1955:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1955/CF_1955_Ranking_Best.html
Yale ranked #75 out of 110. Army #47.

1959:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1959/CF_1959_Ranking_Best.html
Dartmouth ranked #79, Yale #87, out of 112.

1960:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1960/CF_1960_Ranking_Best.html
Yale 9-0-0 team ranked #47 out of 113. Navy #27.

1964:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1964/CF_1964_Ranking_Best.html
Princeton 9-0-0 team ranked #9 out of 120.

1968:
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1968/CF_1968_Ranking_Best.html
Yale 8-0-1 ranked #69 out of 119.
Harvard 8-0-1 ranked #71.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Historical computer ratings


Author:
Diogenes (voy vey)
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Date Posted: 08:15:36 09/11/17 Mon

Thank you for those links. Fascinating stuff. I was unaware of that site.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Historical computer ratings


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 13:09:32 09/11/17 Mon

Yes, thanks for providing the Sorenson rankings, they seem to have the ring of truth about them. One of the major distortions that they seem to deal with is the favoritism shown by Eastern sportswriters to the Service Academy teams in the 50's and 60's, when Army and Navy had fallen off their lofty perches. In the 50's, there seemed a presumption that Army in particular deserved a Top Ten ranking if it had a good record, when Cadets, post cheating scandal of early 50's, substantially eased their schedule with a mix of Colgate, Yale, lesser regional schools. Ivies also sometimes got a spot in lower reaches of Top Twenty more out of historical respect than actual on-field performance.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Historical computer ratings


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 17:07:06 09/11/17 Mon

Agreed - by coldly taking into account who beat who (whom?) in any given year, the overall picture of Div. 1 football comes into better focus. Memphis Bill, I do think that an Eastern sportswriter bias (fake news 50 years ago?), would explain some of the higher-than-deserved poll rankings for programs that were previously top-notch but had subtly fallen down the pecking order (service academies, Ivies).

From that list I provided, the two teams that stand out as being very impressive are Princeton 1964 and Dartmouth 1965, ranked #9 and #17, respectively, in back-to-back years. Truly big-time results, almost a decade after the Agreement had stomped its boot on big-time Ivy football.

On a marginally-related topic, I find it amusing to this day that, occasionally, Yale being ranked #10 in 1981 by CBS Sports the week before the Princeton debacle is brought up as if it were a factual representation of the D-1 landscape at the time. In actuality, Yale received a #10 ranking in the weekly "Top 10" shown on the Sunday NFL pre-game show, NFL Today (yes, the one with Brent, Phyllis, Herb and Jimmy the Greek) -- and the ugly truth is that the #10 spot was almost always awarded _AS A JOKE_. I believe Slippery Rock got the #10 ranking at one point, for example.

For perspective, Yale finished the season ranked #79 out of 137 in 1981 in the Sorensen ratings. And the loss to Princeton surely doesn't account for a 69-position drop.
http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1981/CF_1981_Ranking_Best.html

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