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Subject: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 16:36:20 12/14/17 Thu

The downward trajectory continues...

Attendance at Ivy vs. Ivy football games stayed relatively flat compared to the same games at the same locations 2 years ago -- down only 0.5%. The asterisk is that the total this year was inflated by the Brown/Dartmouth game at Fenway (more than 12,000 this year vs. 4,000 at Brown in 2015). Excluding that game, the decline from 2015 is 3.7%. Still not terrible, but it continues a downward trend, because 2015 was 9.3% lower than 2013.

TV viewership for the games on NBCSN (and CNBC for Y-H) is simply not good, and getting worse. The average viewership declined a whopping 26.7% from last year, which had already declined 12% from the prior year. The Y-H game experienced a significant drop. The most-watched game this year (Brown-Dartmouth) would have been among the least-watched just two years ago.
At some point you have to wonder if NBC will pull the plug -- unless they're getting a nice check from TIAA or the Ivy League for the broadcasts.

Attendance
----------
Average per game (excluding OoC games due to differing opponents each year)
2017: 9,393 (9,285 without the Fenway game)
2015: 9,446
2013: 10,416
2011: 10,119

NBCSN viewers (all games Friday night unless noted)
-------------
2017:
dart/penn 80,000
prince/harv 86,000
cornell/prince(sat n) 62,000
brown/yale 76,000
dart/brown-fenway 89,000
harv/yale(sat-CNBC) 61,000
AVERAGE 75,667

2016:
penn/dart 120,000
penn/yale 102,000
yale/colum 55,000
harv/penn 133,000
yale/harv(sat-CNBC) 106,000
AVERAGE 103,200

2015:
colum/prince 74,000
yale/penn 147,000
dart/harv 96,000
cornell/dart 93,000
brown/colum 188,000
harv/yale(sat-twilight) 106,000
AVERAGE 117,333

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Replies:
[> Subject: One silver lining


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 16:43:38 12/14/17 Thu


One article stated that while D-B at Fenway drew the same actual attendees as UMass-Maine, D-B did a far better job of filing the luxury (i.e, significantly more expensive) suites.

I suspect that the demographics of Ivy alums will help us continue to stay on the air for that reason, even if some other FCS conference claims that they could do as well or better in terms of ratings.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 17:25:33 12/14/17 Thu

I am not doubting the accuracy of your viewership numbers, but I do have a hard time understanding what are the causes for such a large decline from 2015 to 2017, which represents a 36% decline in viewership. This Ivy League football season was very competitive overall with greater parity among teams compared to the prior years. Being a person interested in data analytics, I am not sure what would be the explanation for such a dramatic decline in viewership.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 17:40:42 12/14/17 Thu

Ask the grim reaper. The Ivy League fan base is very old and dying off.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Yale OL
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Date Posted: 18:57:19 12/14/17 Thu

hate to admit it but I think you have something there. I just don't think the young people are into Ivy League football. There is just to many other things out there to occupy their time. Plus with all the concerns with CTE, it is not helping putting people in the stands. Ivy League football just does not seem to be the event that it enjoyed many years ago. I will expose my 3 year old to it over the coming years and hopes he enjoys it as much as I have but realistically I am not sure if Ivy League football has a foundation to capture and generate a new fan base to sustain it in the coming years.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Ivy Patriot
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Date Posted: 17:33:31 12/14/17 Thu

"This Ivy League football season was very competitive overall with greater parity"

I don't know if that matters. I suspect there is a finite audience that will watch "their" team regardless of record.

Is it possible the novelty of Ivy League football on a Friday night is wearing off? It would be a surprise if casual viewers disappear as the Big Ten's foray into Friday night football ramps up.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Ivy Patriot
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Date Posted: 17:44:13 12/14/17 Thu

It's also possible that with the Ivy League games being streamed, you aren't limited to one chance to see your team play so an NBCSN game isn't "must-see TV."

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 18:59:55 12/14/17 Thu

I am not sure if an accurate regression analysis could be done on this set of data, but just using the eyeball test, it seems to me that Penn "moves the needle" more than some of the other schools, when it comes to TV ratings.

Ironic that much of the attendance decline between 2013 and 2015 is the result of Penn's home attendance dropping off a cliff.

On the flip side, ratings-wise, Yale and Columbia don't appear to be outstanding draws. That may change now that their on-field fortunes have taken a turn for the better.

Sobering: almost as many people bought tickets for the Y-H game this year as bothered to tune in--nationwide.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 19:02:22 12/14/17 Thu

In order to attract television coverage from NBC Sports or ESPN8, etc. I believe they should require the host team to have a plan to promote and maximize attendance for that game. No plan no television coverage. The schools that actually promote the games and draw fans get the TV coverage, those that don't which probably means Cornell are out of luck. This year the best game in the league was probably the Dartmouth vs. Yale game which they could have promoted to draw at least 10,000 fans, but as usual the AD's sat on the A... and did nothing and they drew a measly 5K. I'll bet Dartmouth would have won that game if they had filled the place up. Welcome to capitalism!

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 19:15:36 12/14/17 Thu

Sorry I meant the Dartmouth vs. Columbia game not the Yale game. Anyway both teams were tied for first that game, but attendance was a real disappointment considering it was the match up of the week.

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[> [> [> Subject: D-C


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 21:02:35 12/14/17 Thu


It wasn't on NBCSN. It was on Eleven Sports.

For all we know, that game got decent ratings. The instant thread deals with NBCSN ratings.

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[> Subject: Ivy students don’t flock to games. Students become alums.


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 00:58:07 12/15/17 Fri

Yale OL has identified the problem. Aerodynamically, Ivy football is in a stall. Most stalls are recoverable. However, some stalls are unrecoverable-you’re flying a crowbar. If Ivy student attendance continues to decline, a flat spin is inevitable. The students who don’t care while they’re students, won’t care when they’re alums.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 01:18:10 12/15/17 Fri

If you want Ivy football to be relevant, we are going to have to accomplish the following:

Get students to the games
Get the communities to care and support their teams
Improve the quality of the on field product
Have a chance at winning the NCAA (playoff participation)
Improve facilities
Hire a commissioner that understands sports marketing and football


If not, football will become a D3 or club sport and interest will decline further.

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[> [> Subject: Quick rejoinders


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:01:59 12/15/17 Fri


1) The quality of play is as high as its been in generations. Every Ivy team has about 30+ players who had D-I scholarship offers coming out of HS. More importantly, we're sending more guys to NFL camps than we have in a long time.

2) Most Ivy teams have made significant upgrades to facilities in recent years. Sure would be nice if all eight would do it, but I don't think that's the issue.

3) D-III is "all or nothing." You can't drop your football program to D-III without also doing the same for basketball, hockey, lacrosse, etc. Google "Dayton Rule" for specifics.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Quick rejoinders


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 18:05:58 12/15/17 Fri

Let’s be clear, I want the Ivy League to put the best product it can on the field, for both the athletes and fans. I just don’t think we are close to that level yet.

Upgrades to facilities may have been made, but are still not on par with most D1 programs. Which stadiums, locker rooms, weight rooms and practice faciities in the Ivy do you think are comparable to the top 50% of D1 football programs? Harvard may get there with renovations, Princeton, Penn? Please don’t put Yale in that category....seat comfort, bathrooms, concessions, scoreboard and appropriateness of size put the stadium in the are all bottom 25%. Other aspects bring that ranking down further. People on this board know more about the facilities at other Ivy schools,I’ve only seen about 1/2. I have really only seen the stadiums for the others, but I have seen the full compliment of facilities at more than 30. Good facilities help attract recruits.

Same holds true about quality of play. Being the best team in a subpar league still means you are subpar. Only really way to know how good you are is to play the top teams and I don’t think the Patriot and Ivy League teams qualify as being the best in the FCS. Maybe you disagree. Again, the only way to really know is to play them. We won’t be in the playoffs, so the only alternative I could come up with was OOC games against top teams. Forget about Army and Georgia, How would HYPPD do against James Madison, Youngstown State, N Dakota State? That would give us a true benchmark. We can’t just compare ourselves against non-scholarship schools, there are not enough of them left and recruits weigh all options/factors.

Let’s focus on how to get attendance and fan interest up or we will be playing in front of 5,000, (less than many high schools) and recruiting/football product will suffer. I stand corrected that D3 is a possibible outcome. However I would argue being irrelevant in DI is an even worse fate.

I am not looking for FBS football here, but to attract talent and have competitive play( relative to an external benchmark) we need to recruit the 3* and 2* players. Not a handful on each team, the whole team. Maybe a league commissioner focus on marketing is not the right answer, but at least it’s a suggestion. Let’s come up with better ones and get moving.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Well...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:29:48 12/17/17 Sun


When Floren Varsity House opened in Hanover earlier this decade, Teevens said that recruits were telling him "Coach, I was at Northwestern/Duke/Rice last week, and your locker room and weight rooms are better than theirs."

Whether or not he's still hearing that from recruits, I have no idea. But it played a big role in Dartmouth's becoming competitive again.

I agree that Memorial Field per se doesn't wow anyone (although people do like it). Personally, I used to love the old practice fields by Thompson...

I'm totally fine with playing competitive FCS teams. There really isn't a huge difference between playing Army and playing good CAA teams. Of course, I'd only recommend scheduling one such game a year per team, or else you end up with some of the problems that Dartmouth had in the first decade of this century...

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 22:21:56 12/20/17 Wed

You know Duke and Northwestern both opened new practice facilities, weight rooms and football locker rooms in 2017 right?

Probably spent $30-$50 million maybe more.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 22:32:37 12/20/17 Wed

My bad. Duke spent $100 million on their football facilities in 2017 and Northwestern spent $260 million on theirs. We can’t even spend 10% of that amount for a new locker room and a practice bubble.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Ivy Voyeur
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Date Posted: 02:05:00 12/15/17 Fri

NBCSN may have shot itself in the foot ratings-wise by not carrying any Columbia games this year.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 07:57:06 12/15/17 Fri

the best thing to do would be to completely remove Ivy football from TV. It is painful and embarrassing to watch. Not the quality of play which for the most part is OK, but the minuscule crowds...huge swaths of empty stands, individual voices audible, pathetic bands and cheer leaders etc etc. If I were a decent HS player, I'd want no part of that if more or less equal choices were available elsewhere.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
2Coasts (Not just the ivies)
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Date Posted: 09:13:49 12/15/17 Fri

Stanford downsized the football stadium some years ago from 90,000 to 50,000. With a first class, winning product, including Heisman finalists, stands still aren’t full, save for the Big Game vs. Cal. Top it off, a fair number of students arrive late and leave early. Go figure. Agree with foehi re: Ivy TV, visuals are downright pathetic.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Stanford


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 15:36:02 12/17/17 Sun

Avg. attendance for Stanford: 47,398 (94.7% capacity).

Play better competition and the fans will come.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 11:30:27 12/19/17 Tue

It also helps to have a large student body and to play schools with huge student bodies such as UCLA, USC, etc.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 22:49:05 12/15/17 Fri

Not to mention: no instant replay

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
foehi
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Date Posted: 20:03:31 12/16/17 Sat

thee is on the jumbotrons

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[> Subject: TV cameras always on the home side


Author:
GreenIvy
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Date Posted: 09:14:43 12/15/17 Fri

Not only are the crowds smaller, but the TV cameras always are on the Home side facing the visiting sideline, and to the emptier seats. The optics make this look terrible on TV, as many HS games have more in the seats than the Ivy. Get the home teams to switch sides, and at least have the TV audience see the better attended side. Not that it would matter at Harvard or Yale, but at a place like Dartmouth, their home side is always crowded.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 09:29:01 12/15/17 Fri

I feel having the Ivy League Football games on national TV is very important for the league as it helps with recruiting. Players want their fiends and family to be able to watch them play on TV.

I think the decision to move next year's Yale-Harvard game to Fenway was ratings driven. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that NBC was the driving force pushing it. That game should see its ratings triple as a result.

Yale sponsor Under Amour wants to see Yale play on TV too to get a return on their $16mm investment in Yale athletics. I would guess that they also were pushing for the game at Fenway.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:03:32 12/15/17 Fri

GG makes some great points.

There is no question that the quality of play and average rating of recruited athletes has improved in recent years. As noted in several prior threads, there are two key factors driving this improvement. First, the vastly improved financial aid packages clearly makes the Ivies increasingly competitive with FCS and FBS athletic scholarships. Second, the quality of the jobs post-graduation for student athletes also are dramatically improving. Each of the Ivies is developing an ever-growing pipeline to the nation's most coveted positions in IB, PE, VC, consulting and high tech with remarkable starting salaries, bonuses, and fringe benefits that are in line with what starting MBAs earned a decade ago. If you talk to a large cross section of recent student athletes about their Ivy experiences, you will find that some may grumble a bit about the Ivy athletics, but in almost all cases, they are so grateful for the academic experiences and the post-graduation professional opportunities offered to them.

While all of us wish the Ivies generated better attendance and broadcast viewership, I believe that the quality of play will continue to improve.

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[> [> Subject: And its not like we're the only league with ratings issues


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:07:22 12/15/17 Fri


The NFL says hello.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/14/media/nfl-ratings-sunday-night-football/index.html?category=media

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 12:15:54 12/15/17 Fri

Just a couple of observations here, fwiw.....

First, better financial incentives are making the Ivy product on the field better than it has been in many many years. Each game features at least a few guys who will at least get looks at the next level.

Secondly, the younger generation/Ivy students WILL attend games IF they think they are relevant. Before the demotion to I-AA/FCS, the Ivies were still in the "highest bracket" of the sport and attracted some fans who otherwise would not have been. Check successful hockey programs and other sports. They'll support them IF they feel the school is making their best effort, and there's a perception among many that the schools are not. So, why should they attend games?

Even in 2017, its folly to minimize the impact of FCS. What would happen to attendance at UConn games if they dropped to FCS? Boston College? Syracuse? We don't have to answer that.....it'll be "friends and relatives only" plus. That's almost what we have now.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
remember it well (Steve is right)
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Date Posted: 14:58:13 12/15/17 Fri

IUWW6 Declining attendance at Ivy games is a never ending topic on this board and by now we should have acknowledged if there is one dominating causal factor, it is the demotion of the Ivys to I-AA/FCS.
Doubtful the founding fathers who created our sports league could have anticipated that college football would evolve in a way that would diminish the Ivys to the degree that is has.
Shortly after the demotion to IAA the Ivy League admins attempted to bring in the military academies to help preserve the status of Ivy football. Had Army and Navy joined the League it certainly would have been a plus. That was really the last shot at keeping the Ivy football brand relevant.

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[> Subject: What Could Have Been


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 16:33:52 12/15/17 Fri

Imagine a new IVY League at the IA Level debuting in 1982. In my mind it would have looked like this:

Yale
Harvard
Penn
Princeton
Army
Navy
Rutgers
Rice

Think of the rivalries this league would have had. Season could end with Army-Navy, Princeton-Rutgers and Yale-Harvard.

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[> [> Subject: Re: What Could Have Been


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 17:03:34 12/15/17 Fri

I like the outside the box thinking. Its fun to re-visit things, knowing what we do know now.

Even without bowl games, Ivy Football should be at the FBS level. Ivies are not nondescript, irrelevant universities. They are highly visible institutions with long proud athletic legacies.

It would be interesting for a panel to convene to chart the course of Ivy Football in the 21st century. I'm not sure the model for the 20th century works now. Attendance bears that out. As long as greater financial aid will keep improving the product on the field, it is a valid study.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 18:23:14 12/15/17 Fri

I fully agree that the move down to FCS has adversely impacted both attendance and viewership. I also believe that if the Ivy wants to, it can move back to FBS and be fairly competitive within the lower tier of FBS football.

Assuming we can get Ivy administrators on board, the most practical solution is to create a league like what Son of Eli suggested - the 8 Ivies plus Army and Navy. This would make sense for five reasons: a) the prestige and rigorous academic standards of the military academies is in line with the prestige and high academic standards of the Ivy League; b) the military academies would be the most receptive to how the Ivies place restrictions on students and coaches since they place even greater non-athletic demands and restrictions on their students and coaches; c) the military academies also do not allow redshirting; d) the lack of scholarships is not an issue since the military academies also do not issue athletic scholarships; and e) Ivies are not that far from the quality of football at Army and Navy so it would not take too long to close the gap.

Similar to how the Ivies have been recruiting more four-star basketball recruits in recent years since the change in financial aid rules, I feel there is similar room to significantly raise the bar for football recruits in a new academic FBS conference. Given the challenges the NCAA is facing on many fronts, I am guessing the NCAA would be very receptive to a new FBS academic oriented conference. We could even have the winner of our conference play in an academic themed bowl by creating a partnership with schools like Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Georgia Tech, Stanford, etc.

No matter how much sense this might make, it would only work if our Ivy administrators had a big change in heart. Seeing how Stanford has created world class academic university competitive with all of the Ivies and fielded good FBS football teams, the timing just may be right to explore a movement back to FBS again.

I realize that this may be dreaming too much, but it is the time of year to add items to one's wish list.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 18:43:06 12/15/17 Fri

Ivy Sports Junkie- we posted about the same thing at the same time! lol

Actually, both Army and Navy were considered to be part of the informal Ivy league before it formalized. They chose not to go along because they were still a strong football presence at the time.

I definitely think its doable, and the NCAA would be wise to be receptive. Major CFB does have image problems, which is what makes the Army-Navy game so popular with fans. The academies have much in common with the Ivies.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 18:37:36 12/15/17 Fri

I guess the real bottom line is this.....

Just before the demotion in 1982, the Ivies were using their new-found tenth game to schedule opponents they hadn't seen in decades (or ever at all). While they weren't winning a majority of them, they did win some and it was giving the programs needed experience with big-time opponents. Had they continued on that path, it is likely that the Ivy League would have gradually become a decent mid-major I-A/FBS league. That was before the enhanced financial aid packages.

However, the demotion occurred and the rest is sad history. It need not stay this way.

There are two scenarios here.....

1) The current situation of a largely forgotten, games-don't-even-count-towards-bowls, FCS league that suffers from declining attendance

or

2) A decent FBS mid-major league that, with enhanced financial aid packages, allows its teams to compete OOC with teams like Boston College, UConn, the academies, Rice, Wake Forest, etc, etc. Average attendances being in the 20k-plus range....occasionally having a top team get some votes for the Top 25.

I don't believe for a second that when the Ivy Group agreement was signed in the 50's that they envisioned the Ivy League being demoted to the point that it has been.

Its time to reverse course somewhat....not to be a Big Ten or SEC, but to be a unique league that actually has the chance to stand as a beacon for excellence in both academics and football.

I think everyone of us can agree that the second option would be by far the most fun. And, it is doable since they were on track to doing it before, and things have actually improved with enhanced financial aid.

I know the Prexies have been standing in the way for so long with worn-out excuses, but there needs to be a catalyst. That's what's been missing.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 20:28:49 12/15/17 Fri

I agree with your goals Steve. However, one problem, besides the Prexies, is that there is no NCAA procedure in place for an entire league to step up to FBS.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Old Eli
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Date Posted: 21:30:33 12/15/17 Fri

Attendance is a problem across the college sports universe today, including the issue of getting students to attend.

The Ivies would never be able to compete in FBS football. There is no more reason to assume success there than we see in the NCAA basketball tournament.

Stanford is a unicorn, and has athletic resources that no Ivy can afford or would want to afford. None of us could dream of being a Stanford athletically.

The Ivies are what they are and one could argue the FBS schools should wish they were us - with true student athletes and a better balance between athletics and academics - rather than vice versa.

Finally, a point those of us who love Ivy League sports often conveniently forget is that our views on athletics are not shared universally across our schools' communities, and there are those in these institutions who don't like athletics and don't like the level of resources they already draw.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 23:09:32 12/15/17 Fri

Well said old Eli, and the reason we will never be truly competitive in FCS outside the Ivy. I will never understand why supposedly liberal thinking Ivly schools discriminate against football in favor of hockey,lacrosse, basketball and other D1 sports.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 09:58:38 12/16/17 Sat

I don't think the Ivies could compete with Power 5 FBS competition on a regular basis. I do believe they could be a decent mid-major FBS league, a la the Sun Belt, MAC, or CUSA. However, most of their games would be within the league with OOC games against teams they could compete with, along with the FCS team or two. Bowl Games need not be a factor. Just a return to the highest overall bracket would help with attendance and the like.

Nothing is cast in stone forever. For years many of us thought they would never see a true spring practice or a tenth game!

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
roar Lion
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Date Posted: 13:24:43 12/16/17 Sat

A midmajor FBS school is spending $20 million a year on football and losing money. The players are under intense pressure to maximize sports time, minimize classroom time. The Ivies compete at a higher level in basketball, soccer and hockey because it is affordable to do so. You don't need 20 FTEs and $5m in financial aid to support a basketball team the way you do in D1 football. Would it be better for Penn to spend $3m on a head coach and lower its academic standards (and demands) so alumni could watch a game vs. Rice or Wake Forest instead of a game vs. Holy Cross or Lehigh? The level of Ivy football is quite good, the players are actual students who graduate at nearly 100% rates and enjoy professional success. We ought to be delighted with the product we've got.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 16:21:35 12/16/17 Sat

I think Ivy fans are happy, generally. There is room for improvement. The problem isn't so much what the Ivies are or are not doing, as much as it is how Division I football is structured currently. Its almost set up so that many D-I programs are guaranteed to lose money. It needs to be loosened somewhat to enable teams to make the commitment they can afford to and still compete.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 13:55:45 12/16/17 Sat

While athletic budget clearly is an important factor, maintaining a FBS football program does not need to be that expensive. For example, Bowling Green University fields 17 division 1 athletic teams (7 men's and 10 women's teams) and their football team has had winning programs in 4 of the past 5 years. Their entire athletic budget is only $21.8 million, so the football team's athletic budget is far more modest. It is especially modest if you take into account how athletic scholarships represents their largest expense.

The Ivies in football can maintain lower budgets and be fairly competitive with MAC, Sun Belt, Mountain West, CUSA and AAC. This is similar to our ability to be fairly competitive with lower tier D1 programs in basketball and baseball despite having much smaller budgets than the top tier of D1 sports programs. If the Ivy administrators could support this, we have the financial resources to make it happen.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 17:16:23 12/16/17 Sat

I agree completely. There are some that think "FBS" and immediately think "SEC"-type money and issues. There is a lot more to FBS than many people think. That is why you and I see that the Ivies could easily be an FBS league.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 22:44:51 12/16/17 Sat

Love the idea. How does it happen?

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 18:11:50 12/16/17 Sat

I agree with Ivy Sports Junkie as a cross alignment with the MAC along with the Patriot League and the CAA would make a lot more sense. I have always said we should eliminate FCS or I-AA as we don't use that classification in basketball, soccer, lacrosse, etc. While I am also a Syracuse fan it pisses me off to no end when their fans call us a I-AA school during our annual lacrosse game. There is no such thing as NCAA I-AA lacrosse and it shouldn't exist in football either. Siena College plays a lot of good teams in basketball with an occasional upset, they're not a I-AA school.

The problem with Ivy League football is the administration at least at Cornell could give a "Rats A.. about football. The theory is if we really suck at football that some how will improve our academic ranking. Meanwhile we have 14,000 undergraduates drinking themselves under the table every weekend because with the exception of hockey our sports suck and there is nothing else to do on campus.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 21:31:24 12/16/17 Sat

The Ivy League, CAA, Patriot League and MAC would have a lot of inter-play.

Its time for CFB to go back to Division I, period.

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[> [> [> Subject: Ivy League Recruitig


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 10:52:56 12/17/17 Sun

For those who doubt the Ivy LeGue can compete on the field with FBS teams, there's around 20 FBS teams with liver ranked recruiting classes than Yale. This is not an anomaly, but a 3 year trend. If somehow the Ivy League wax rd addicted as FBS, the recruiting fir the Ivy League would improve still further. Even at red FCS level the Ivy League can compete with the bottom tier of the FBS. If the Ivy League was reclassified they would be a solid mid major conference stronger than the Sun Belt, Conference USA, MAC, or Mountain West.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy League Recruiting


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 10:55:21 12/17/17 Sun

Forgot the link

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CompositeTeamRankings

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy League Recruitig


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 10:57:56 12/17/17 Sun

That's lower ranked, not liver ranked. Need to start proof reading these BEFORE I hit send.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy League Recruiting Edited Version


Author:
Son of Eli (Haste Makes Waste)
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Date Posted: 11:06:55 12/17/17 Sun

For those who doubt the Ivy League can compete on the field with FBS teams, there's around 20 FBS teams with lower ranked recruiting classes than Yale. This is not an anomaly, but a 3 year trend. If somehow the Ivy League waxs reclassified as FBS, the recruiting for the Ivy League would improve still further. Even at the FCS level the Ivy League can already compete with the bottom tier of the FBS. If the Ivy League was reclassified they would be a solid mid major conference stronger than the Sun Belt, Conference USA, MAC, or Mountain West.

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CompositeTeamRankings

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 18:27:48 12/17/17 Sun

Thanks for bringing this to light. The issue has never been whether or not the Ivies CAN move up....rather its been a matter of will.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Newk
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Date Posted: 11:09:59 12/18/17 Mon

All really good points. What's the point of being FCS if we don't compete in its postseason tournament? It makes more sense to be FBS and shun the stupid bowl system. I guess the argument is the stadium requirements, but if we really wanted to address that, I think the universities could get their stadiums up to the requisite standards.

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[> [> Subject: train has left the station


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 13:15:57 12/18/17 Mon

There is absolutely no incentive for Army and Navy to join some form of "new" Ivy league - at least not for football. If they declined to join over thirty years ago there is even less reason for them to become an Ivy now.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: train has left the station


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 13:39:15 12/18/17 Mon

It was my understanding that Army and Navy declined in 1982 since it would require them to voluntarily drop down to FCS I-AA in football if they joined the Ivy League. That was a deal breaker for Army and Navy.

In contrast, this our hypothetical new academic oriented Ivy League, including Army and Navy, would be part of FBS.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 16:32:23 12/18/17 Mon

Its all about FCS. Newk is correct about the FCS and the playoffs. Its pointless to be in the FCS if the playoffs aren't an option.

Stadium size? Low-cost bleacher additions could be handled fairly easily, one would think.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:42:32 12/18/17 Mon

If the Ivy Administrators shifted to support a move to FBS and if we could cut a deal with Army and Navy to join us for a new Academic oriented league, I strongly believe that the NCAA would jump at the chance to make a waiver for stadium requirements to create this new league. While the new league would complete with the lower tier conferences in FBS, it would bring a ton of positive publicity to the NCAA.

Equally important, if the NCAA elected to not be flexible to allow a waiver for stadium attendance requirements for this new FBS academic oriented conference, it would lead to a lot of negative publicity for the NCAA. It would imply that the NCAA favors game revenues over supporting higher academic standards.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 18:11:49 12/18/17 Mon

Small problem: they DO favor game revenues over supporting higher academic standards, and everyone knows it. The NCAA does not give a rat’s patoot about an Ivy/Academy league. They care about preventing the big five conferences from walking away and forming their own Premier Association.

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 19:23:34 12/18/17 Mon

JoiseyFan you very well may be right and I have far too wishful thinking here.

However, I still think that an expanded Ivy League with Army and Navy (call it "Ivy Plus") would offer a wide range of intangible benefits to the NCAA and even to the Power 5 conferences. Ivy Plus would tap into minimal amounts of the FBS NCAA revenue sharing from Bowl games, yet this Ivy Plus conference would offer wide range of compelling economic and PR benefits. First, it offers the nation's highest average viewership income who can partially offset their less active fan base with greater ability to buy future premium services. Second, over time Ivy Plus could gradually build a small, but profitable new sports network with access to high levels of disposable income. Third a disproportionate number of Ivy Plus alums are in leadership positions of corporations, who can be corporate sponsors for sporting events, TV and streaming sports channels. Fourth, a disproportionate number of Ivy Plus alums are in leadership positions of social media, digital marketing and sports related corporations. Finally, I believe that the NCAA does care about the positive public relations that an Ivy Plus conference could potentially bring. While not as important as revenues, positive PR has become increasingly important to help offset an ever-increasing number of negative press articles related to the NCAA.

Ivy Plus would have minimal if any downside risks, but offer a ton of upside potential. Never underestimate the power of money and influence in negotiations.

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[> [> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 23:22:23 12/18/17 Mon

One small logistical problem. When all those army and Navy fans come to watch their team play at Cornell, Brown, Columbia and Dartmouth, where are they going to sit?

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[> [> [> Subject: Ivy Plus


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 08:55:11 12/19/17 Tue

One small philosophical problem: how to reconcile military academies aligning so closely with institutions whose student and faculty populations are decidedly left-leaning and anti-militaristic.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: That's not as a big a deal as it used to be


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:16:54 12/19/17 Tue


Again, taking a knee during the anthem was *not* protesting the military.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: VV is talking about institutional attitudes


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 10:45:32 12/19/17 Tue

not knee taking. For example, there has been general antipathy to ROTC on campus, with a few exceptions.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: As ISJ explained...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:17:48 12/19/17 Tue


A "general antipathy to ROTC on campus" is a great improvement from how relations used to be with the military at Ivy schools.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Rephrase


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:33:25 12/19/17 Tue


That was poorly written.

Should have said either "not accurate" or a "step up," rather than "a great improvement."

Wish this Board had an edit feature #238

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Plus


Author:
remember it well
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Date Posted: 09:32:50 12/19/17 Tue

The reconcilement issue with the military academies has more to do with de-emphasis "leaning" "anti' football attitudes of Ivy admins

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[> Subject: Re: 2017 Ivy football attendance & NBCSN TV ratings


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 10:44:08 12/19/17 Tue

There is no question that all the Ivies are very liberal politically. However, the campuses also have shifted a lot in the past 20 years to be far more supportive of veterans. ROTC has been restored on the campuses and an increasing number of each undergraduate class elects to serve in the military. All of the campuses actively recruit and support veterans in their graduate programs. The six campuses with business schools (Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Yale) each provide admissions preference for veterans with specialized recruitment outreach to the veteran community. Unlike a few decades ago, support for our veteran community is strong among both Republicans and Democrats.

A new expanded Ivy League with Army and Navy may not happen for other reasons, but I do not see lack of support for veterans within the Ivy League as one of them.

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[> [> Subject: "ROTC has been restored on the campuses"


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 17:38:43 12/19/17 Tue

The score:

http://www.advocatesforrotc.org/national/

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