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Subject: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 10:30:06 12/30/17 Sat

Northwestern beat Kentucky last night to finish the season 10-3. They are currently ranked in the Top 25 and now have 27 victories over the last three years. All while maintaining a 97% graduation rate and a cummuative team GPA above 3.0!

More proof that the Ivy League model of de-emphasis of football was not necessary to foster acedemic excellence. The Ivy League could have continued to field nationally competitive football teams at the FBS level while still maintaining academic excellence. If Northwestern can do it the Ivy League could have too.

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Replies:
[> Subject: In all fairness...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:14:11 12/30/17 Sat


At the time the decision was made to go D-IAA, very few people were holding up Northwestern as an example of balancing athletic and academic success.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 12:03:12 12/30/17 Sat

I'm talking about decisions that were made in the 1940's. All of the people who made these decisions to de-emphasize football are long since dead and buried. Their philosophy on athletics, particularly football, was wrong. It's time to bury their de-emphasis philosophy with them and change course to re-emphasize football. For now that would look like:

1) an eleven game schedule
2) bowl counter status for Ivy games with FBS schools
3) participation in the FCS playoffs.

In the future there could be another realignment of Division I. If that happens the Ivy League needs to seize the opportunity to get back to the highest level of Division I. That would likely mean the elimination of the Academic Index an the ban on bowl games. If these second round reforms were made the Ivy League could recruit competitively with the likes of Duke, Stanford and Northwestern.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Diogenes (Son of Eli)
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Date Posted: 12:11:32 12/30/17 Sat

Agree wholeheartedly. Ivy faculties hated football then and hate it now. The difference between then and now is undergraduate support for football. It was substantial then and now is approaching underground newspaper levels.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 12:23:41 12/30/17 Sat

I see Ivy League football as a shark. It needs to swim forward or it will die.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 12:26:00 12/30/17 Sat

Northwestern an alternative model to the Ivy League? Really? Since when is going halfway in the wrong direction a good thing?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 12:56:51 12/30/17 Sat

I don't consider having the 11th academic ranked schools in the county going "half way in the wrong direction." It's as good or better than most of the Ivy League

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 13:01:48 12/30/17 Sat

Correction, Northwestern is ranked academically as high or better than half the Ivy League, not most of the league

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Third Time's a Charm


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 13:07:20 12/30/17 Sat

Northwestern ranks academically equal to or higher then 3 Ivy League Schools; they are Brown, Cornell and Dartmouth.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 13:25:58 12/30/17 Sat

. . . halfway in the wrong direction because it's weak enough to allow itself to be dragged off mission and toward the popular but inevitably polluted factory programs instead of having the strength to stay on course.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 14:08:22 12/30/17 Sat

Are Stanford and Duke also going half way in the wrong direction?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 16:49:23 12/30/17 Sat

Yup. Of course they are.

Do you seriously believe that any organization that (a) pays $7+ MILLION + outside income to a coach for teaching how to handle an orange ball, and (b) has a pay structure that unashamedly admits to the watching world that that coach makes more than 6X the CEO's salary, is NOT headed in the wrong direction?

Or, to say it another way, if that's the RIGHT direction, then what's the WRONG direction?

Absurd.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 20:07:25 12/30/17 Sat

The wrong direction is playing in front of 90% empty stadiums in a state of irrelevancy. The right direction is avoiding that while still having a top 10 rated academic institution with high athlete graduation rates. Stanford, Duke and Northwestern are heading in the right direction. The Ivy League is the one heading in the wrong direction and has been for the last 70 years.

It's a question of balance. Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and many other schools have found a way to balance nationally competive sports programs with top notch academics. The Ivy League chose a far more radical path, especially in regards to football. A path that no other Division I league has choosen to follow. Of course it sounds good to say to oneself that we are purer, but saying it doesn't make it so.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 23:21:49 12/30/17 Sat

I agree that it is a question of balance. So, what kind of balance is demonstrated by the dementedly obscene financial arrangements, Penn State-type perversions, and other warping of priorities that result from an over-emphasis on this stuff. The spectrum has places like MIT and the NESCAC schools at one end, and the Penn States of the world at the other. The question is which end has more merit.

The fact that the Ivies are the only Div 1 conference to take this path doesn't prove that it's wrong. There are plenty of cases where the less popular course turns out to be the right one. More people watch schlock on TV and drive crappy cars. Doesn't make those choices the better ones.

Finally, we're mostly talking about only fball and bball. The
Ivies do fine enough at many of the other sports.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 12:31:04 12/30/17 Sat

Guys
I understand your feelings. I happen to believe that the Ivies should be eligible for post season play in football.

However,
Do you really want to go down the same road as Northwestern??
They are bottom dwellers in basketball and they will never be able to realistically compete in football with teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. I just don't see the point.

I believe that we would have the same excitement if we just
were allowed to compete in the post season. I would have been interested to see how Yale would stack up against a team like North Dakota State.

If you were to make the argument again, you should choose Stanford and not Northwestern.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 12:49:08 12/30/17 Sat

If 27 wins over three seasons while playing in The Big 10 and a national Top 25 ranking doesn't impress you then you're very hard to impress. So what if they are not as good a Ohio State? The Ivy League shouldn't have a philosophy of if we can't be #1 then we'll take our ball and go home.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 13:57:56 12/30/17 Sat

The question is not what I think. It is what the students and alumni think. If the ivies went big time would we enjoy it more. Not only that what big time football team football school would come to Hanover to play in that stadium which is fine in Ivy League. What would have excited me would be seeing how Yale would have done in theFCS playoffs

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 14:04:59 12/30/17 Sat

Dartmouth could play their big homes games at Fenway or Foxboro. Same with Brown. Columbia could play their big home games at Yankee Stadium or Giant Stadium. Cornell could easily add seats to get to a 30,000 capacity.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 15:23:41 12/30/17 Sat

Yes those modifications could be made. However, Ivies would still be playing each other attracting relatively small crowds

Bottom line, is that it is my belief that if the Ivies begin awarding athletic scholarships, you will not see the excitement and satisfaction that you expect. All I want is for the Ivy league champion to play in the FCS playoffs.

Blue-I watched this year's Yale Princeton game. While I was not happy with the outcome, it was an exciting hard fought contest. I don't believe that if the players were receiving athletic scholarships that I would have enjoyed it more. The Yale and Princeton athletes play as hard as the players on Alabama, Clemson, etc., just not at the same skill level. If I was only concerned with skill level, I would only watch NFL games.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 19:42:04 12/30/17 Sat

On a side note, did anyone see the beautiful football facility Northwestern has built/is building on Lake Michigan which was highlighted on the telecast? As recently as 2016, their facilities were similar to Yale/Harvard. Their stadium is similar to the Yale Bowl, but the training, practice, meeting and other facilities are now light years ahead. They are also currently completely remodeling their basketball facility (playing offsite this season).

It will be interesting to see if these enhancements improve their program results through recruiting. Maybe the recent bowl appearance is just the first step. They will likely never be in the upper echelon of football, but that is not really the point. The quality of play has improved exponentially under Fitzgerald and the new facilities can only help them keep improving.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 13:44:14 12/30/17 Sat

Oh man, is it that time of year again?

I’m fascinated that two words appear nowhere to this point: “athletic scholarship.” Just as crucial to the discussion as the AI. Both are non-starters in the current Ivy League.

To reprise: HYP will never do this. As in, ever. At all. The degree to which they care what the other five think may not be clear, but it’s limited. So the five are welcome to stay with HYP or not, as they wish. To date they seem to desire it greatly. QED.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 14:02:41 12/30/17 Sat

Just to clarify, the FCS playoffs and 11th game are completely separate issues from the Big Ten/PAC-12 mess. Both should be implemented immediately.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 14:27:32 12/30/17 Sat

I don’t see the lack of athletic scholarships as an issue anymore. Agreed, the Ivy Presidents srongly oppose them, and likely always will. However, the current ubiquitous Financial Aid scholarships made possible by huge tax free endowments makes this policy no longer a hinderance to the Ivy League’s ability to recruit. Hence, the remarkable improvement in the quality of Ivy League Sports we’ve seen this century. Ivy League presidents can’t undo this without loosing their tax free status. The door is now open to take the next steps to further revitalize Ivy League Football without given up the ban on athletic scholarships. It will just take some vision and courage to step through it.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 16:02:29 12/30/17 Sat

I believe the recent tax law imposes a tax on endowments, so offering athletic scholarships won't save the day on that score.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 19:20:51 12/30/17 Sat

As much as I’d like to know how the Ivy Champion would fare in the FCS playoffs, I think similar benefits could be accomplished by playing annual OOC games with Rice, Duke, Northwestern, Army, Vanderbilt etc. Hopefully, improvements in facilities and recruiting (and then a resulting rise in level of play) would be the result. This would require the 11th game and lift on bowl eligibility credit. I guess games against some schools could be held at alternate sites to provide for the necessary capacity, but that would not help student attendance/involvement as most would not travel. Something about that does not feel quite right, as our guests would not experience our campuses and host cities (except at a few schools), but I could live with that in exchange for games on national TV/ and football exposure. The current non scholarship status and unique Ivy experience could be maintained to a large degree while generating many benefits.

Maybe it’s a reasonable middle ground? I don’t see the Ivies joining a major conference, offering academic scholarships, or wanting to forgo the unique “club” like feel any time soon...if ever. Nor do I see others with similar academics that currently play in the Power 5 conferences wanting to join with HYPP in forming a new one, requiring them to forgo large conference payouts.

We will see if 2018 holds out any hope of change, but I am not holding my breath. Status quo is the safe path for Ivy leadership and for 1/2 the league, it’s the only real option.

It’s almost the New Year, so hope remains!

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 20:22:39 12/30/17 Sat

A telling comment about public perception by the announcer when describing Northwestern's turn around- "They were so bad [in the 70s] they considered joining the Ivy League."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Upper Valley
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Date Posted: 21:04:15 12/30/17 Sat

Former Ivy executive director Jeff Orleans was interviewed about a possible upgrade in Ivy football ambitions back in the 90's, back when Northwestern, Duke and Stanford were all perpetually bad. When the interviewer asked Orleans whether the Ivies could aim to combine high level academics with FBS football like N, D and S did, he responded, "How's that working out for them?"

At the time, Orleans was correct.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 22:04:04 12/30/17 Sat

Orleans was extremely short sighted. Robin Harris has been a big improvement.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Agreed


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:56:07 01/01/18 Mon


I'm not sure Harris always believes her own propaganda.

But at least she issues propaganda. Seemed too often that Orleans didn't even bother to try...

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 23:15:50 12/30/17 Sat

I think there is a path to a better standing for Ivy Football without abandoning its basic principles.....

1) Better aid packages are having about the same impact that schollies would have. That's why you see an upgrade in play. This year's Yale team could compete with many FBS schools.
2) Because of the improved aid situation, it may be easier to have the bowl credit ban lifted.
3) I think the FCS Playoffs are simply too much for the Ivies to swallow, especially if it means going deep. Just being reasonable knowing the prexies like we do.
4) Improve facilities just enough to petition to go FBS as a league. Some are already there.
5) Think outside the box to improve attendance to meet FBS standards (which is not asking that much, really)
6) Be a good mid-major FBS league that plays OOC games vs academic-minded schools and academies, as well as MAC, Sun Belt, and other conferences. Re-establish ties left behind long ago by reintroducing series' like Yale-UConn, Princeton-Rutgers, etc.

Remember, Northwestern gets HUGE amounts of bowl money from the BIG as well as the BIG Network.

If the Ivies were an FBS league, played realistic OOC opponents (including occasional Patriot and CAA teams), averaged 15-20,000 fans at games, and had a raised profile in the CFB world, who exactly would be hurt by this? I think this is where the Ivies could be, with an occasional champ getting Top 25 votes.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
old blue
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Date Posted: 08:19:28 12/31/17 Sun

gentlemen;enjoyed reading the active banter on this topic. for what it is worth and just one man's opinion the 1981 ill fated mistake to drop down to this mediocre subdivision category 1A is a mistake which should not be repeated each year and immediately corrected. the powers that be do not have the intestinal fortitude to move into the twenty-first century to allow academically gifted students the chance to play football at he highest possible level given the circumstances. it took more than twenty five years to achieve a ten game schedule which has now hovered at that level for about another forty years. i may be drinking my own bath water but the time has come to allow ancient eight players to compete at the playoff level. adding an eleventh game would allow each ancient eight member to add a so called upper level team or at the very least reinstated traditional rivalries. for example our blue vs huskies and tigers vs scarlet knights.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 11:08:36 12/31/17 Sun

Happy New Year to all posters on this board, the discussion of our beloved League's proper place in the college football universe illustrates why we all find participation in these discussions stimulating and enlightening.

In my humble opinion, I think one unifying thread can be distilled out of all the above comments, and that is that the student athletes who play for our alma maters deserve better than the present circumstances of low attendance at games and little or no way to prove their status in the universe referred to above.

Robin Harris is a quantum improvement over Jeff Orleans as our conference leader--the latter played the role of undertaker, not commissioner. She is a skilled lawyer, used to navigating the corridors of the NCAA offices in Indianapolis, so she can be a useful ally in representing our interests at that organization.

Long term, I think post season play is still DOA with Ivy presidents, so the emphasis should be on gaining an 11th game, and assuring the flexibility that would allow the scheduling of a game each year with selected academic peers in different parts of the country. Presently, we have the jarring disconnect of eight institutions proudly proclaiming national and even international preeminence, and yet passing up a clear opportunity to connect with our increasingly geographically dispersed alumni by matches with those peer institutions in Durham, Houston, Evanstown, etc. The West Coast is not a fertile ground for such matchups, but this could be handled by scheduling mutually beneficial contests with the Service Academies at a neutral site in San Francisco or LA.

Some may think the above thoughts are idle dreams, but I feel that facts on the ground support me. HYPP, and probably Dartmouth and Columbia have the resources in place to achieve what is described above, as each (with the exception of D) has a huge endowment, and football backers with immense resources and open check books. From what I can see, Brown is in the process of mobilizing along the lines of its rivals, and Cornell has the resources, it simply needs to find the will.

When one sees the ferment throughout college football, I foresee a future in which the Ivies can resume the role they played in the first twenty five years of the League's existence, as Mid Majors playing a competitive brand of football that demonstrates, by producing future leaders, the way the sport ought to be played.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
old blue
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Date Posted: 13:12:32 12/31/17 Sun

gentlemen; here are some thoughts on the way the pigskin landscape has changed. the scarlet knights until 1993 stadium capacity was 31 thousand and always played the tigers in the more spacious palmer stadium capacity 46 thousand. the eagles stadium capacity in 1993 was 26 thousand and regularly played in a home and away series with the crusaders whose fitton field capacity was/is 26 thousand. eagles current stadium capacity 45 thousand and no longer play the crusaders. nittany lion stadium capacity until 1969 was 46 thousand now 106 thousand.ancient eight squads will continue to get lost in the shuffle unless strides are made toward an eleventh game and participation in playoffs. mr memphis has hit the nail on the head.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 18:04:55 12/31/17 Sun

The quality of Ivy League football is no worse now than it was 25 years ago.

This reflected by the number of Ivy League grads playing in the NFL.

The problem is attendance which is a demographic problem related to the changing student body at Ivy schools.

Simply put sports in general and football in particular is not that important to Ivy students.

They do not go to games as undergrads and do not go as alumni.

11 games and FBS playoffs are not going to change that.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 02:16:56 01/01/18 Mon

M3, I can understand your frustration, but here are a couple of points that might help.....

1) Ivy students have shown that they will support their teams if they perceive that the school is making a best-effort to compete in other sports where they are nationally competitive.

and

2) Back in the day, when Ivy schools were routinely playing in front of tens of thousands of fans, we all know that those crowds were not loaded with students- the student bodies were never big enough. Rather, the strong majority came from the general public. Fans from the general public are what's missing now.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 15:10:59 01/01/18 Mon

"when Ivy schools were routinely playing in front of tens of thousands of fans."

When was that? The 40's?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
remember it well (ESF)
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Date Posted: 15:25:12 01/01/18 Mon

For Yale 60's 70's and and certainly through 81 and that was without any The Game inflating the average attendance.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 21:53:31 01/01/18 Mon

"...without The Game inflating the average attendance"?

So you're saying Yale was averaging 65,000 if The Game was at your place since the average wasn't inflated. Anyway I don't think you're remembering very well these days. Ivy Teams(Plural) are not defined by just 2 or 3 schools.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 09:06:05 01/01/18 Mon

Your point is good.

The question then is how good do Ivies have to become in order to bring back the non alum college football fan in the Northeast.

I think the schools would need to be competing had a mid ACC level
(think Duke, Wake Forest,UVa) to make it happen.

That would be a huge financial and philosophical (in terms of AI changes) commitment which I think only half the league (at best) would be willing or able to do.

With that said I could imagine Cornell saying what am I getting out of this athletic deal (not much) and becoming the Stanford of the East and Duke of the North and joining the ACC.

HYP effectively have scholarships for middle and low income athletes thanks to there large endowments but do not have to call them that -big recruiting advantage in the non preppy sports.

In the short term however the Ivy schools like their brand and have plenty of applicants.

Do not look for any change soon.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Bubba
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Date Posted: 14:43:17 01/09/18 Tue

A real issue in todays' League schools.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 09:09:27 01/01/18 Mon

Lots of interesting and thought provoking posts.
My take is that Northwestern could do what they did because they were playing in the Big Ten. Big football powers came into town and that was the draw
The Ivy League is not the Big Ten and never will be. Schedule only allows 3 out of conference games. The majority of games will be other Ivy League teams.

To my friends on this thread, I would like to pose this question.

What is it exactly you hope to achieve?? What is your ultimate goal??

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 12:09:03 01/01/18 Mon

Good question Jerry. My ultimate goal for Ivy League Football is to end its isolation and national irrelevancy by perpetuating more opportunities for national exposure and more opportunities for the football players to be able to prove their talent.

An eleven game schedule with an occasional FBS opponent and FCS playoff participation furthers these goals. Getting the Ivy League back to FBS status with a 12 game schedule and Bowl eligibility would accomplish them to a much greater extent, but would also be much harder to achieve. That’s why the former FCS reforms should be the primary focus for now, while keeping to door open to a jump to FBS if the opportunity should ever arise.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 13:41:06 01/01/18 Mon

Agree with you about first step. If we could just get that, I would be happy

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 15:19:13 01/01/18 Mon

The isolation and national irrelevancy was forced upon the Ivy League (and they were the main target) in the early 1980's by the television money-grabbing NCAA football powers who had no intention of sharing the mushrooming revenues with the entire NCAA membership.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:50:26 01/01/18 Mon

Let’s not forget there are attendance problems throughout college football because of the continuous saturation of Top 20 games on national television. No way around that until some of the conference networks get into financial trouble.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Big Dawg
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Date Posted: 21:56:18 01/02/18 Tue

Here is the inherent flaw in the entire above discussion.

Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt and Stanford, constantly referenced above, have nothing at all in common with the Ivies. They recruit based on the academic standards of the NCAA and their respective leagues. In other words, notoriously low. Being huge schools, 300 or 400 academic sub-standard student-athletes (and a few good ones) will not affect the overall legit academic numbers of otherwise picky schools.

So there you have it. Want national contenders? Prepare for a total dichotomy of student population. The jocks and the academics. And there will be magnitudes more alienation between these groups than there may exist today.

Oh....here's a bonus comment.
Re attendance and enthusiasm???? I saw CU in their championship run and #6 national ranking in '67/'68. Sell-outs every game. Campus went nuts. That's still possible with consistent decent teams. But the overall psyche on all our campuses is not that of an SEC or Big 10 type. We truly are more laid back and more intellectual and, yes, smarter. Sports can be important and fun, but never to the levels or limits of those fine leagues.

We are Ivy League. For better or worse.

















They have no

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 22:58:14 01/02/18 Tue

"So there you have it. Want national contenders? Prepare for a total dichotomy of student population. The jocks and the academics. And there will be magnitudes more alienation between these groups than there may exist today."

No, if it can work at Stanford, and it does, it can work in the Ivy.

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[> [> [> Subject: How Do You Define "Work"?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 00:08:19 01/03/18 Wed

This is a timely topic in that just tonight I had dinner with two guys who went to law school at Stanford. Unprompted, they both mentioned that they thought the athletes were a cut below the rest of the student body academically and were socially isolated. Now, granted, these two guys were Ivy undergraduate alumni in law school so I don't know how much personal exposure they had to undergraduate athletes (or non-athletes, for that matter). Maybe they were just Ivy snobs, although by personality neither one fits that description. So consider their opinion very anecdotal.

But I for one do not believe that it is possible to compete for championships in football and men's basketball in Power 5 conferences with AI-level academic standards for athletes.

I accept 100% the premise that Stanford is a preeminent university on its way to becoming the preeminent university in America. But the real question is how one defines "work" in the phrase "if it can work at Stanford."

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How Do You Define "Work"?


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 08:38:32 01/03/18 Wed

This has been my understanding too. Of course there are exceptions, as there are at large public colleges who can produce football Rhodes Scholars from time to time (example - Florida State's Myron Rolle, currently a neurosurgeon), but I don't think that's very typical.

A related question is - why do schools like Stanford and Northwestern have student bodies that seem much more passionate than ivy students about their sports teams, if they are drawn from the same pool as ivy students, and assuming that the dichotomy between athletes and general student body exists? Can it be really ascribed to a regional attitude thing, considering that all these schools draw from around the country? And are the ivies really more liberal (read = sports antipathy) institutionally than a California school outside San Francisco?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How Do You Define "Work"?


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:11:52 01/03/18 Wed

I wouldn’t be so quick to include basketball with football. Since the revival of Ivy B-ball in the post-AI world in 1989, Princeton (especially in 1998), Penn and Cornell have made runs at the Top Ten, and other mid-majors have gone to the Final Four. It only takes five good players, a strong schedule, excellent coaching, and some good luck (especially regarding injuries).

Football, by comparison, is a huge industrial debacle.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: True enough, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:39:58 01/03/18 Wed


It was basketball (and arguably hockey) that served as the bases for the creation of the AI.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: True enough, but...


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 20:24:19 01/03/18 Wed

Absolutely true, and the AI turned out to work fine in both cases.

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[> [> [> Subject: If you want to see Stanford at Ivy admisisons levels for athletes


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 07:32:20 01/03/18 Wed


Check out the Teevens and Harris years.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/HIGHER-STANDARDS-Stanford-teams-finding-it-s-2589894.php

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 07:28:03 01/03/18 Wed

I agree that the Ivy League couldn’t compete as a solid mid major at the FBS level with the current admission policies in place. That’s why I said earlier in this thread they would need to eliminate the AI in order to go back to the FBS level. This shouldn’t be considered a radical notion. It would only be returning the Ivy League to the status quo that existed in 1981, before the AI was implemented.

The standard should be can the athletes do the work and graduate. Northwestern has proven that they can. It’s not important that the athletes are within one standard deviation of the student body. Diversity is good, right?

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[> [> [> Subject: If Not Us, Then Who?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 09:17:42 01/03/18 Wed

With all respect, SOE, I disagree. Universities are centers of research and teaching. I accept that almost all colleges use athletics to attract a more diverse student body than would otherwise be the case and as an in-house marketing arm.

I'm comfortable with that because -- let's be candid -- it is not the mission of the University of Alabama to be solely a center of research and teaching. It's also a social and cultural institution in Alabama. And a big part of the social and cultural function it plays is provided by a championship football team.

But that flourishing sports programs comes with a cost. Louisville, Baylor, Ole Miss, SMU, blah blah blah. We all know the cesspool that is Top 25 FBS football and men's basketball recruiting. And that's just what we know about.

For the love of all that is holy, somebody's got to stand for doing things the right way. And right now, very few colleges are even attempting to hew to the role of academic standards for athletes. It's got to be us.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who?


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 12:32:24 01/03/18 Wed

I just want to play against a couple of those schools each year to see if the Ivy League can compete in FB. We already play against them in other sports. Keep the AI, keep the IVY league. I’d just like to see a few changes to be able to compete (on the field and in recruiting). Is that too much to ask?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who?


Author:
Big Dawg
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Date Posted: 16:48:56 01/05/18 Fri

In a word, Yes.

We could certainly play these teams, but we would only get wiped out, as well as suffering serious injuries.

Those kids are barely one step below pro-level in size and talent. Once in a while an Ivy player matches up, but never on a roster-wide basis.

The Stanfords and the Northwesterns still use league and NCAA minimums to recruit, or they could not compete. If we want true student-athletes, we have to accept that.

We will just have to rule the world, not the FBS.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who?


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 23:14:40 01/13/18 Sat

Ok. Let’s say you are right, we cant compete with the likes of Northwestern or other schools with lower academic standards for FB. Let’s schedule MAC schools or are you thinking the result would be the same. Are you saying we can only compete within the IL and Patriot? I really have no feel, but would like to see since we don’t play in the playoffs.

Is that too much to ask?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
HDallmar
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Date Posted: 12:38:50 01/03/18 Wed

The late Fred Hargadon was director of admission at Stanford before coming to Princeton. He told me that Stanford had a two track admission system, one for athletes and another for non-athletes. He said he admitted a lot of athletes to Stanford who never would have been close to admitted to Princeton.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 20:40:58 01/05/18 Fri

I asked Carril the identical question years ago. He did not answer, just turned an indescribable patriotic shade of orange.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Big Dawg
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Date Posted: 13:58:18 01/07/18 Sun

One last thought in this long and interesting thread.

North Dakota State just won the FCS championship. Forget FBS. NDS would assassinate any Ivy school, as would any of the top 20 FCS teams. This is just not the type of football we play or should want to play.
Hard hitting, competent, well coached games against fairly equal teams should be our goal. The rest is merely a recruiting competition without academics as a criterion.

As far as fan popularity, it is a significant part of those schools' culture and social life; not so at ours. This has been the case since the '60s. An undefeated season will still turn up the attendance, but forget Rose Bowl numbers.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 12:31:20 01/03/18 Wed

Exactly. $7.2 million coaching salaries. Sandusky perversions. Louisville etc. and an endlessly repeating list of more examples.

Duh.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 20:07:50 01/03/18 Wed

I think $10B to $30B endowments will protect the Ivy League from being corrupted by the comparatively marginal revenues yielded from a successful FBS program. This is yet another reason why the Ivy compact is antiquated. In the early 20th century a large part of Yale's revenue was derived from its football program. At the time this presented a danger of becoming a corrupting influence. Today the Yale endowment yields much more income in a year than a Power 5 Football program does.

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[> Subject: We can compete at FBS mid-major recruting players who are excellent students


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:46:01 01/03/18 Wed

Since Northwestern, Duke and Stanford have deep, long term ties to their respective Power 5 conferences, it is not practical nor important for the Ivies to use this as their model. As noted in other threads, the more practical solution is the mid-major FBS conference path that would include Army and Navy in a new "Ivy Plus" conference. If this were the case, our modifications to AI would not be that great.

While we would not have to directly compete with Stanford, Northwestern and Duke for Power 5 type athletes as a mid-major, you would be surprised how these three Power 5 schools are able to have the vast majority of their recruiting classes be excellent students who fit in very well taking tough classes. For example, at Stanford, students do not declare their major until their junior year. Of the 50 Stanford football players who are juniors and seniors, 31 football players or 62% are majoring in the sciences and only 19 football players in other liberal arts majors. It is a myth that these schools have to significantly modify their standards to recruit elite athletes. The vast majority of these athletes can be admitted into the Ivies.

Simply put, we can easily upgrade to mid-major FBS conference without meaningful compromise to our academic standards and maintain our rich academic heritage.

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[> [> Subject: Re: We can compete at FBS mid-major recruting players who are excellent students


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 14:33:00 01/03/18 Wed

When I read some of the comments on this Board, I wonder how many of the posters actually have had responsible positions for a sustained period in a real business setting involving significant sums of money. I say that because anyone who thinks that paying a coach a $7 MILLION salary--which happens to be 6X the CEO's salary and will thus invert the entire org chart and reporting structure (see Penn State)--will not involve a "meaningful compromise" to the Ivies' standards, academic or otherwise, must work in an environment where money doesn't have its inevitable effect.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 16:33:34 01/03/18 Wed

Pursing a path to mid-major FBS, such as the MAC conference, then each of our Ivy head coach's compensation packages likely will be well below $1 million and less than the top compensation packages for Ivy professors. The MAC average head coach's salary was only $399,769 with total average maximum compensation, including all bonuses, at only $644,846.

Interestingly, the MAC head coach's average total compensation is dramatically below the top salaries of Ivy faculty, such as David Silver, Columbia Dermatology Professor's salary of $4.3 million, Zev Rosenwaks, Cornell Medical School Professor's salary of $3.3 million, or Dean Takahashi, Yale Finance Professor's salary of $2.6 million.

Unless we try to compete in the Pac 12, Big 10 or ACC, then there is no need to consider compensation packages in the $7 million range.

BTW - you also would be surprised at how many of us have successfully run large businesses. Among my Ivy teammates, the vast majority ended up in the C-suite.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 17:31:55 01/03/18 Wed

Thanks. Fair points, all. And I wouldn't be surprised about the C-suite numbers; actually, I'd expect that. I was only saying that some posters who seem to see no negatives to junking the Ivy compact and chasing the factory-school model often seem to not fully account for what IMHO is the substantial downside that so often accompanies that kind of move.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 20:23:27 01/03/18 Wed

None of the reforms I've proposed requires "junking the Ivy Compact". They would only serve to restore football to equal footing with the rest of Ivy League sports. Just to clarify I want the Ivy League to remain in tact. If that means staying in the FCS so be it.

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[> Subject: Last but not least, the UCF Alternative Model


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 16:58:35 01/03/18 Wed

Declare a championship:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/21951014/ucf-knights-raise-national-championship-banner

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[> [> Subject: Re: Last but not least, the UCF Alternative Model


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 21:34:22 01/03/18 Wed

According to the ESPN article Calvin provided, as the only undefeated FBS program in 2017, UCF administrators have informed Scott Frost and his coaching staff, who of course are all leaving for Nebraska, that they will all be paid contingent bonuses in their contracts for winning a national championship. That is putting your money where your mouth is.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 17:42:53 01/03/18 Wed

I don't think ANY posters here want to "junk" the Ivy compact or go Power 5 against USC, Ohio State, etc.

FBS is a BIG tent and getting bigger. Only part of FBS is actually made up of the big money schools in football. I'm not sure everyone realizes that.

The Ivy League should be on par with the MAC, Sun Belt, and maybe a couple others, but there is no need to push further than that.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
blue32
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Date Posted: 17:43:32 01/03/18 Wed

What keeps the ivy league in FCS? Could they per say replace all 3 of their OOC games with FBS opponents or a combo of FCS and FBS? For example:
Harvard/Yale vs BC,Umass,Uconn
Cornell/Columbia vs Buffalo,Cuse,Army
Princeton vs Rutgers
Penn vs Temple,Navy

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 17:45:59 01/03/18 Wed

Since they neither offer athletic scholarships nor participate in the playoffs, they no more belong to FCS than do Division II or III. They were stuffed there by the "Sherrills and the Switzers" and they've just stayed there for lack of want to do anything else.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 19:47:14 01/03/18 Wed

The NCAA does not give bowl counter status to FBS wins over FCS teams that don't offer athletic scholarships. Because of this rule it is next to impossible for Ivy teams to schedule the teams you propose. There is an historic significance waiver to this rule that Yale was able to use to schedule Army to mark the 100th anniversary of the Yale Bowl.

This NCAA rule was passed in the early 1990's before the rapid growth of Ivy School endowments and the subsequent proliferation of financial aid packages as a result. Ivy League Football is now demonstrably superior to many FCS Leagues that regularly schedule FBS opponents; e.g. Patriot, Northeast Conference, SWAC and MEAC. However, basically due to apathy, the Ivy League has never petitioned the NCAA to change this outdated rule.

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[> [> [> Subject: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
remember it well (Eastern Sports Fan)
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Date Posted: 21:14:55 01/03/18 Wed

A worthwhile read from 11/4/2016 YDN.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/11/04/football-a-division-decades-old/

For Eastern Sports Fan: My comments were about Yale's past attendance numbers being in the tens of thousands well beyond the "40s" even without The Game attendance numbers included. Perhaps "you're not reading very well these days" so here's Carm's quote from the above linked article.

"The atmosphere on game day at Yale also rivaled that of the larger schools. “The Bowl was a tremendous place, we were drawing really well then,” Cozza said. “The smallest attendance we had in the 60s or 70s would have been 35,000 or 40,000 We filled the Bowl [over 72,000] for Harvard, we’d have 56,000 for Dartmouth, 47,000 for Cornell. When we went to I-AA it definitely affected the attendance … we were not on major television as much. That probably hurt the league more than anything else.” The comparative dearth of other entertainment at the time, in addition to the NCAA’s monopoly on TV rights and policy of televising just one game a week, meant the student body attended the games en masse".

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Football Fanatic (Question)
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Date Posted: 21:56:10 01/03/18 Wed

I really have no idea on this: how many D1 schools outside the Ivy League are non scholarship (don’t count for bowl status)?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Non Scholarship Schools


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 07:00:47 01/04/18 Thu

I really have no idea on this: how many D1 schools outside the Ivy League are non scholarship (don’t count for bowl status)?

There are 12-- a total of 11 Pioneer schools and Georgetown from the Patriot.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 22:44:03 01/03/18 Wed

Other than the Ivy League it’s just the 11 Pioneer League schools.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Football Fanatic
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Date Posted: 11:14:11 01/04/18 Thu

So basically there are only about 20 D1 schools the NCAA precludes from counting towards bowl eligibility? That is crazy, discriminatory or as someone else already said, a sign of apathy on the part of our conference. I am not sure I want Ivy football compared to Georgetown or the Pioneer schools in terms of on-the-field quality...aren’t those some of the same teams this board bashes when they are scheduled as our OOC opponents?

It would seem that this issue could be corrected fault easily through petition? Or do we provide all athletes a scholarship capped at $1 or set it equal to the financial aid package they otherwise qualify for(could be a problem since not all athletes receive aid)? Just making up suggestions, but there has to be a way of not being such a small minority that has these scheduling restrictions...if the Ivy League really wants to.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Eastern Sports Fan
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Date Posted: 19:05:19 01/04/18 Thu

See related comment floating around this thread I made earlier. It was on purpose and intended to drive Ivy League into irrelevance.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Football Fanstic
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Date Posted: 21:43:08 01/04/18 Thu

Eastern, I’d say they have been mostly successful, if that was indeed their goal. A spark of hope remains, but it’s only a spark at this point.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 20:39:19 01/04/18 Thu

Agreed. But the Ivy League Presidents took it lying down because they don’t like football. They would immediately petition the NCAA for a rule change to the FBS Bowl Counter Rules as they apply to the Ivy League if they cared at all about football. The truth is the presidents want Ivy League Football to be irrelevant.

However, I do have reason to believe that President Salovey is different. I think he really likes football judging from his enthusiastic behavior at games. The fact that he even goes is a big improvement from his predecessor Levin.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 22:45:27 01/10/18 Wed

I said many years ago on this site the move to I-AA or FCS in football has been a disaster for Ivy and other member schools. The fact is I-AA does not exist for any other college sport, so why football? We don't have it in basketball, baseball, hockey, lacrosse, track or any other sport..........why football? All I-AA ever did was chase our fans out of our stadiums. Unfortunately at schools like Cornell I doubt we'll even have football within the next ten years, as the program is nothing but a huge financial drain on our athletic department. Our new president Martha Pollack is more interested in promoting her political agenda than trivial things like athletics. The biggest sport today on the Cornell campus are drinking games.....seriously. Go Big Red!!!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: In fairness, Sprint


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 07:05:18 01/11/18 Thu


The downward decline in Ivy attendance began in the 1970s, and predated the move to I-AA.

You want to argue that the move to I-AA accelerated the decline in attendance or made the declined permanent, go to town. But to suggest (as you have done repeatedly on this Board) that Ivy attendance was at peak levels in 1980, and didn't begin to decline until 1982 is simply not accurate.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: In fairness, Sprint


Author:
old blue
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Date Posted: 09:20:57 01/11/18 Thu

gentlemen; thought i would chime in on attendance and think mr go green is correct for the most part attendance for a majority of the ancient eight began to decline in the mid 1970's and decade later for our blue with the exception of the tiger and cantab clashes. move to minority status was indeed the major contributor to the decline.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 14:22:58 01/11/18 Thu

Concerning the decline in Ivy attendance, it is true that it was on the downswing throughout the 70's, prior to the downgrade to Div 1AA. At that time, the reasons for the decline were apparent: move to cooeducation at three of the four powers then at top of League, Yale, Princeton and Dartmouth, thus removing the "Big Weekend" scene with undergraduate population doubling due to influx of dates from girls schools; rise of youth sports disabling attendance of Ivy alum-parents in their 30's and 40's; and more diverse student bodies with fewer avid fans. Even so, the team with the top talent at that time, Yale, resisted those trends quite well, as Harvard game attendance from 1975-1981 exceeded what was the norm in the 50's and 60's (all those games in the Bowl were essentially sellouts), and Dartmouth attendance stayed north of 30,000 when those games were in the Bowl. Also, Navy game in 1981 drew over 40,000. The biggest drag on attendance was collapse of Princeton game as a major draw, caused by The Streak (which largely was caused by Bowen abandonment of Tiger football, a phenomenon I have previously commented on). The moral of this story is that teams succeeding in playing competitive mid-major style football like Yale, could still draw fans (and I think Harvard illustrates this as well). The supine attitude of Bowen, Bok and Giamatti to the 1 AA downgrade proved to be a devastating mistake from which we never have recovered.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 15:28:25 01/11/18 Thu

Giamatti wanted to further de-emphasize football and was more than happy to have the NCAA do the dirty work for him.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "How Yale Lost Football"


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 16:40:42 01/11/18 Thu

It is true that attendance was sliding in the 70's, but the addition of that tenth game enabled Ivies to schedule major and mid-major teams. They were just at the cusp of reversing that trend when the demotion took place.

Among the OOC games on the schedule just prior to the demotion were Army, Navy, Air Force, Boston College, Miami of Ohio, Cincinnati, Penn State, etc

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Even if we stayed in what is now FBS


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 18:06:50 01/11/18 Thu


The AI made us noncompetitive against several of those schools.

We got games against Northwestern, Hawaii and Cornell on the books after the I-AA move. The games were not close.

With the AI and without the enhanced financial aid packages that we enjoy today, we would have lost tons of relevance (and therefore attendance) in the 1980s even if we had stayed at FBS. I believe that our best case scenario would have been have been Army in their C-USA years.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 18:28:53 01/11/18 Thu

While it may not happen overnight, I strongly believe that we can compete with the second tier of FBS conferences without having to lower the AI. The fact that Stanford competes well in the Pac 12 conference with over 60% of their team majoring in Stanford's very rigorous STEM majors reinforces this point. The vast majority of their team easily meets our AI standards for both GPA and SAT scores.

I am not suggesting we can be Stanford, but we clearly can compete at the MAC, Conference USA and Sun Belt level for the second tier of D1 recruits. I remember how prior to the FCS spilt in 1978, we were able to annually recruit 5 to 10 football recruits who were actively recruited by Power 5 conference teams. This was prior to our enhanced financial aid packages of today that effectively are near full scholarships for most of our prime recruits. It may take a decade to restore our competitiveness at second tier of FBS, but the recent successful of our basketball teams recruiting 4 star, top 100 ranked players is a good illustration of how our improved FA packages opens up many new doors. Given the steady rising of academic rankings for Stanford, Duke and Northwestern should make it easier for a path to potentially be pursued, if we can get administrative support.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 20:28:12 01/11/18 Thu

Correct, and if the Ivy League TRULY wantede to show the college football world a "better way", it would not be by allowing itself to fall into obscurity. Rather, it would be by climbing to a bigger level of visibility.

The Ivy League really has a chance to be a positive influence on the college football landscape. First, though, it must strive to become at least an influence.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 22:06:33 01/11/18 Thu

One of the problems with the Ivy League today is we are no longer relevant at least in football. There are only maybe a dozen (per program) of us on this board who even post for our respective schools. Cornell's been losing in football for so many years I am one of the few who even posts anything on this board. Attendance is so poor at Cornell I doubt they'll ever rebuild the West Stands and I am afraid we're in the same position as Boston University, Hofstra, and Northeastern who all dropped their football programs due to poor attendance and no interest among either students or alumni. I think President Martha Pollack would shut this program down if it were just her decision.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 22:22:37 01/11/18 Thu

If even one of the Ivy schools drops varsity football, I think the league will possibly drop football as a sponsored sport. If that happens, its every school for itself.

In that scenario, Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Penn probably go FBS eventually (I know the rules bout joining a league, etc, but). Brown, Dartmouth, and Columbia might be FCS Indies, or maybe join the Patriot.

I think its the magic number of 8 that keeps the league a football league.

Think hockey- its not an Ivy conference, but the schools play in another league

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Nah


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:09:06 01/12/18 Fri


My gut is that if one school (Brown, Cornell most likely) dropped football, the others would kick them out of the Ivy and find a replacement (most likely from the PL).

Among other things, too many Ivies have made capital improvements to their football facilities to pull the plug just because another team wants to quit.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 22:10:45 01/11/18 Thu

It may not be an option for our League to languish in the football backwaters. One could easily see a day when the academic top ten included Stanford, Northwestern and Duke--and NOT Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell. Indeed, we are very close to being there already. The Ivies are suffering from a self-inflicted wound by not taking the relatively modest steps to resume play in FBS.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: What makes you think these "modest steps" are open to us, Memphis Bill?


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 08:40:31 01/12/18 Fri

HYP may possibly have had the option to stay in the so-called "FBS" group, due to stadium size being the criteria at the time, but the rest of the Ivies were unceremoniously kicked out, weren't they? HYP chose to leave rather than abandon the their Ivy colleagues. What "modest steps", exactly, are you talking about?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Preserving my objection for the record


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:47:41 01/12/18 Fri


Just noting my continuing objection that "Y" was the only one that satisfied the attendance criteria at the time, and that "Y" chose to join the other seven in I-AA.

Otherwise, pay me no heed and continue with the substantive discussion.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Preserving my objection for the record


Author:
old blue
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Date Posted: 10:18:27 01/12/18 Fri

gentlemen; mr go green objection although duly noted would be partially overuled on the factual basis our blue and the cantabs both met the alternative requirements of an average of 17k and 30k stadium capacity in 1981. the cornelians;bears,lions and indians did not meet either requirement. it would be interesting to see which teams in the major league also met the attendance requirement.

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 11:01:09 01/12/18 Fri

As long as we have administrative support for this move, I has always been my believed that the NCAA would be flexible to the attendance requirements for a proposed "Ivy Plus Conference" (IL plus Army & Navy) for a move to FBS. Our attendance would not be that much lower than the MAC conference that averages only 16K.

There are numerous political, economic and educational advantages of this waiver. It is not as if the NCAA is providing a recruiting advantage to allow a slightly lower attendance than the MAC conference.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 11:40:01 01/12/18 Fri

There is no administrative support for this.

Think about it - there is no administrative support for 11 games. There is no administrative support for playoffs. There is no administrative support for scholarships.

This is all a pipe dream.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 12:27:06 01/12/18 Fri

O - you may be right. But, policies can change over time. No one would have ever imagined Harvard placing emphasis on recruiting top 100 ranked athletes in basketball. This has resulted in a ton of positive publicity for Harvard.

I think that Stanford's ever growing national profile and it evolvement as the nation's most selective major university based on acceptance rates may be changing minds within the Ivy League.

Each of our universities place priority on teaching students how to change with the times. Maybe our administrators can attend one of these lecturs.

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[> [> Subject: I agree with this


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:45:24 01/12/18 Fri


I agree that there is little evidence that the NCAA really cares about attendance requirements.

But in 1981, the Ivy schools took the NCAA at its word.

:(

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[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Memphis Bill
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Date Posted: 22:02:02 01/12/18 Fri

The modest steps are two in number: let us schedule an 11th game, and push Robin Harris to get the NCAA to recognize that Ivy financial aid packages are so generous that we qualify as FCS schools with enough full scholarships that a victory over an Ivy counts for bowl eligibility. With these changes, Yale will be able, in a short amount of time, to schedule service academies, Rice, Duke and other matchups suitable for the school that invented, and then dominated, the sport of football for the first 40 years of its existence. Our more timid peer institutions, including cowardly Harvard, will then see the wisdom of our ways, and will fall into line and schedule contests worthy of institutions that purport to be national leaders, with footprints that have a coast to coast impact.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 08:28:19 01/13/18 Sat

Amen

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 11:02:43 01/12/18 Fri

Duh, Should proof read better ... I have always believed

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[> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League


Author:
Michael J. O'Flynn
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Date Posted: 09:03:06 01/15/18 Mon

While I think "Memphis Bill" best articulates the optimal outcome for our beloved Ivy League football (FCS playoffs, FBS bowl eligibility for wins over Ivy programs, an 11th game), I fear that the Ivy presidents and their love of political agenda might lead to a radical move toward banning football due to concussion risks. As a Dartmouth alum, I'm very happy that Buddy Teevens has taken the lead nationally on the topic of player safety. It might just buy the Ivies another decade or two of football as we know it.

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[> [> Subject: New Concussion Treatnrnt


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 09:08:58 01/15/18 Mon

Promising new treatments for concussions will hopefully be on their way soon.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/01/08/can-a-drug-save-football/amp/

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: New Concussion Treatnrnt


Author:
HDallmar
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Date Posted: 10:13:40 01/15/18 Mon

Big time athletics brings corruption even to a place like Notthwestern. Both football and basketball players were involved in point shaving scandals there in the 1990s.

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[> [> Subject: Great to have you on the Board!


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:22:43 01/15/18 Mon


I think you'll enjoy it here!

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