Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ VoyUser Login optional ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: Big Dawg [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 21:56:18 01/02/18 Tue In reply to: Son of Eli 's message, "Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League" on 10:30:06 12/30/17 Sat Here is the inherent flaw in the entire above discussion. Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt and Stanford, constantly referenced above, have nothing at all in common with the Ivies. They recruit based on the academic standards of the NCAA and their respective leagues. In other words, notoriously low. Being huge schools, 300 or 400 academic sub-standard student-athletes (and a few good ones) will not affect the overall legit academic numbers of otherwise picky schools. So there you have it. Want national contenders? Prepare for a total dichotomy of student population. The jocks and the academics. And there will be magnitudes more alienation between these groups than there may exist today. Oh....here's a bonus comment. Re attendance and enthusiasm???? I saw CU in their championship run and #6 national ranking in '67/'68. Sell-outs every game. Campus went nuts. That's still possible with consistent decent teams. But the overall psyche on all our campuses is not that of an SEC or Big 10 type. We truly are more laid back and more intellectual and, yes, smarter. Sports can be important and fun, but never to the levels or limits of those fine leagues. We are Ivy League. For better or worse. They have no [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: DFW HOYA [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:58:14 01/02/18 Tue "So there you have it. Want national contenders? Prepare for a total dichotomy of student population. The jocks and the academics. And there will be magnitudes more alienation between these groups than there may exist today." No, if it can work at Stanford, and it does, it can work in the Ivy. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: How Do You Define "Work"? Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:08:19 01/03/18 Wed This is a timely topic in that just tonight I had dinner with two guys who went to law school at Stanford. Unprompted, they both mentioned that they thought the athletes were a cut below the rest of the student body academically and were socially isolated. Now, granted, these two guys were Ivy undergraduate alumni in law school so I don't know how much personal exposure they had to undergraduate athletes (or non-athletes, for that matter). Maybe they were just Ivy snobs, although by personality neither one fits that description. So consider their opinion very anecdotal. But I for one do not believe that it is possible to compete for championships in football and men's basketball in Power 5 conferences with AI-level academic standards for athletes. I accept 100% the premise that Stanford is a preeminent university on its way to becoming the preeminent university in America. But the real question is how one defines "work" in the phrase "if it can work at Stanford." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How Do You Define "Work"? Author: Calvin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:38:32 01/03/18 Wed This has been my understanding too. Of course there are exceptions, as there are at large public colleges who can produce football Rhodes Scholars from time to time (example - Florida State's Myron Rolle, currently a neurosurgeon), but I don't think that's very typical. A related question is - why do schools like Stanford and Northwestern have student bodies that seem much more passionate than ivy students about their sports teams, if they are drawn from the same pool as ivy students, and assuming that the dichotomy between athletes and general student body exists? Can it be really ascribed to a regional attitude thing, considering that all these schools draw from around the country? And are the ivies really more liberal (read = sports antipathy) institutionally than a California school outside San Francisco? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How Do You Define "Work"? Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:11:52 01/03/18 Wed I wouldn’t be so quick to include basketball with football. Since the revival of Ivy B-ball in the post-AI world in 1989, Princeton (especially in 1998), Penn and Cornell have made runs at the Top Ten, and other mid-majors have gone to the Final Four. It only takes five good players, a strong schedule, excellent coaching, and some good luck (especially regarding injuries). Football, by comparison, is a huge industrial debacle. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: True enough, but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:39:58 01/03/18 Wed It was basketball (and arguably hockey) that served as the bases for the creation of the AI. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: True enough, but... Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:24:19 01/03/18 Wed Absolutely true, and the AI turned out to work fine in both cases. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: If you want to see Stanford at Ivy admisisons levels for athletes Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:32:20 01/03/18 Wed Check out the Teevens and Harris years. http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/HIGHER-STANDARDS-Stanford-teams-finding-it-s-2589894.php [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:28:03 01/03/18 Wed I agree that the Ivy League couldn’t compete as a solid mid major at the FBS level with the current admission policies in place. That’s why I said earlier in this thread they would need to eliminate the AI in order to go back to the FBS level. This shouldn’t be considered a radical notion. It would only be returning the Ivy League to the status quo that existed in 1981, before the AI was implemented. The standard should be can the athletes do the work and graduate. Northwestern has proven that they can. It’s not important that the athletes are within one standard deviation of the student body. Diversity is good, right? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: If Not Us, Then Who? Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:17:42 01/03/18 Wed With all respect, SOE, I disagree. Universities are centers of research and teaching. I accept that almost all colleges use athletics to attract a more diverse student body than would otherwise be the case and as an in-house marketing arm. I'm comfortable with that because -- let's be candid -- it is not the mission of the University of Alabama to be solely a center of research and teaching. It's also a social and cultural institution in Alabama. And a big part of the social and cultural function it plays is provided by a championship football team. But that flourishing sports programs comes with a cost. Louisville, Baylor, Ole Miss, SMU, blah blah blah. We all know the cesspool that is Top 25 FBS football and men's basketball recruiting. And that's just what we know about. For the love of all that is holy, somebody's got to stand for doing things the right way. And right now, very few colleges are even attempting to hew to the role of academic standards for athletes. It's got to be us. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who? Author: Football Fanatic [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:32:24 01/03/18 Wed I just want to play against a couple of those schools each year to see if the Ivy League can compete in FB. We already play against them in other sports. Keep the AI, keep the IVY league. I’d just like to see a few changes to be able to compete (on the field and in recruiting). Is that too much to ask? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who? Author: Big Dawg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:48:56 01/05/18 Fri In a word, Yes. We could certainly play these teams, but we would only get wiped out, as well as suffering serious injuries. Those kids are barely one step below pro-level in size and talent. Once in a while an Ivy player matches up, but never on a roster-wide basis. The Stanfords and the Northwesterns still use league and NCAA minimums to recruit, or they could not compete. If we want true student-athletes, we have to accept that. We will just have to rule the world, not the FBS. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If Not Us, Then Who? Author: Football Fanatic [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:14:40 01/13/18 Sat Ok. Let’s say you are right, we cant compete with the likes of Northwestern or other schools with lower academic standards for FB. Let’s schedule MAC schools or are you thinking the result would be the same. Are you saying we can only compete within the IL and Patriot? I really have no feel, but would like to see since we don’t play in the playoffs. Is that too much to ask? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: HDallmar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:38:50 01/03/18 Wed The late Fred Hargadon was director of admission at Stanford before coming to Princeton. He told me that Stanford had a two track admission system, one for athletes and another for non-athletes. He said he admitted a lot of athletes to Stanford who never would have been close to admitted to Princeton. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:40:58 01/05/18 Fri I asked Carril the identical question years ago. He did not answer, just turned an indescribable patriotic shade of orange. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Northwestern- An Alternative Model to the Ivy League Author: Big Dawg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:58:18 01/07/18 Sun One last thought in this long and interesting thread. North Dakota State just won the FCS championship. Forget FBS. NDS would assassinate any Ivy school, as would any of the top 20 FCS teams. This is just not the type of football we play or should want to play. Hard hitting, competent, well coached games against fairly equal teams should be our goal. The rest is merely a recruiting competition without academics as a criterion. As far as fan popularity, it is a significant part of those schools' culture and social life; not so at ours. This has been the case since the '60s. An undefeated season will still turn up the attendance, but forget Rose Bowl numbers. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]