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Subject: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 17:14:16 06/05/18 Tue
In reply to: HDallmar 's message, "Princeton Wins 11 Ivy Championships This Year" on 08:57:48 06/05/18 Tue

Princeton and Harvard have dominated Ivy League sports so thoroughly for so long that it's sometimes hard to notice changes among the other six athletic programs.

Yale for decades was the outlier among the HYP athletic programs, always the weak sister. That to me said that it wasn't solely about academic prestige and the advantage which it confers in recruiting. Common sense and long-time observation told me that it was more about identifying, hiring and retaining the best coaches. Princeton and Harvard apparently did that better than others.

But now Yale appears to be in an athletic renaissance. What's very peculiar is that it's been a sudden rise over the last few years and it occurs in the very late stages of a long tenure under a single athletic director. Did Tom Beckett get smarter? Did he get better at hiring good coaches?

I don't know the answer, especially as some of the higher profile successes lately have been engineered by long-tenured coaches such as Andy Shay and Steve Gladstone.

That leads me to a different, more troubling hypothesis.

Yale has been on an athletic upswing lately but, as noted in this current thread, there is thus far no evidence at all that Princeton and Harvard have given up ground.

I've stated in many other previous posts that I think it would be a tragedy if Ivy League sports devolved to the point where academic prestige and endowment wealth become overwhelming determinants of success. It's not lost on me that Princeton, Harvard and Yale are the exact order in which US News ranks the best national universities and, with H and Y switched, the order in which their endowments per student rank.

Even Columbia seems to me, on an anecdotal basis, to be on a tear. The football team has broken new ground, the lightweight rowing team and baseball teams are championship caliber, the fencing team continues to do well. Are we now further falling into our US News rankings?

If so, this is not good.

I don't want to see a conference where certain schools cannot compete. Penn's football and basketball teams will always be in the mix because of the Wharton draw. Where does that leave Brown, Cornell and Dartmouth?

I accept that the landscape will never be entirely even or flat. It's harder to win at Indiana than at Michigan or Ohio State. But Yale's rebound in recent years is notable and worthy of further scrutiny. If this conference becomes more dominated by HYP, especially if it's driven by money and brand name rather than better run athletic programs, that would be very unfortunate.

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Replies:
[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
Old Lion (And tennis)
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Date Posted: 09:53:24 06/06/18 Wed

Columbia has also been dominant in mens’ tennis. I think our resurgence is attributable to Bollinger getting religion and hiring a great AD, along with significant investment in facilities and budget.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia


Author:
Boston Lion ((Columbia Squash))
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Date Posted: 13:15:18 06/06/18 Wed

. . . and also Columbia Men's Squash with its Ivy Championship and 7-0 2018 Ivy season.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Columbia


Author:
Michael Valmas (Inspired)
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Date Posted: 13:59:36 06/07/18 Thu

Very well put! I'd only add that Columbia's recent 8-2 football season featured a significant good character senior class of players brought to Morningside Heights by the man Dianne Murphy hired to coach football for CU (Peter Mangurian).

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
just a thought
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Date Posted: 17:12:59 06/06/18 Wed

A little revisionist history in the previous post... if coaching hires (like Al Bagnoli) are among an AD's most important priorities then the Columbia record looks more like this:

Al Paul hired Bid Goswami and Jim Bolster

John Reeves hired Derek Davis and Diana Caskey

Dianne Murphy hired Brett Boretti, Kevin Anderson, Jacques Swanepoel, Daniel Ireland, Nich Parker and Michael Aufrichtig

Peter Pilling hired Al Bagnoli, Jim Engles and Megan Griffith

While Pilling deserves credit for the masterstroke of getting Bagnoli - lots of the groundwork for Columbia's success in recent years is attributable to Murphy, and the Campbell Center that she raised the funds to build. Baseball and Tennis were ascendent long before Pilling arrived - and fencing was revived by Murphy's replacement of the previous coach.

It is very easy to point to Columbia's long-time failure in football as a reason to say that the previous AD was the cause of a lack of overall sports success for Columbia - but the facts suggest otherwise.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
Michael Valmas (Appreciative)
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Date Posted: 11:24:14 06/08/18 Fri

Thank you!

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
Old Lion (Murphy)
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Date Posted: 10:04:21 06/14/18 Thu

A total disaster. She deserves no credit. Anything good that happened during her watch was by accident. She undercut Norris’s Wilson. She ran Joe Jones out of town. She hired Pete Mangurian, the worst HC in the history of all NCAA sports. The funds for the new facilities were raised by Bill Campbell and others. Pilling is a fantastic AD.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 10:45:30 06/06/18 Wed

Let’s not lose sight of the huge amount of plain old hard work and intelligence involved in building the type of athletic environment Princeton has. There are, by my count, over 100 Academic-Athletic Fellows from the faculty and staff who hang with each team and keep the interplay with academics close on a daily basis. It has taken decades to get that program where it is today. Many of these folks — including such as Shirley Tilghman — hold endowed chairs and big jobs. Money doesn’t hurt in implementing this, but it’s minor; the commitment of the community is everything.

This is not the SEC. If our athletic departments aren’t seen as integral to the education — and not just to the athletes, but to everyone on campus — they will die. And it’s their responsibility to establish that, not the president or admissions.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 18:17:06 06/06/18 Wed

How is Princeton Field Hockey (or Tennis or Lacrosse) integral to the education of *everyone* on campus?

And why the gratuitous swipe at the SEC - because they value school spirit and campus life?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFn1WEaYY3A

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton, Harvard, Yale. . . .


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 00:57:40 06/07/18 Thu

Fair questions.

For the first, I'll refer you to someone qualified to comment. The three Academic-Athletic Fellows of the Field Hockey team are the Assistant Dean and Director of the University's International Internship Program, the Executive Director of the Princeton Environmental Institute, and the holder of an endowed postdoctoral fellowship in Astrophysics. Ask them.

As for the second, SEC athletics have as much to do with education as they do with Mongolian crop circles.

https://deadspin.com/5976391/sec-schools-spend-163931-per-athlete-and-other-ways-the-ncaa-is-a-bonfire-for-your-money

Meanwhile, the conference is on the cutting edge with nine men's sports, counting X-country and indoor/outdoor track as three.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Academic Athletic Fellows


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 13:06:44 06/21/18 Thu

Joisey, what do you think that the academic athletic fellows tangibly do? I'm not trying to be overly skeptical, but I would guess that mostly they attend a few games, perhaps share a couple of meals with the team and generally provide moral support. Is there more to it than that?

Don't get me wrong. I think that's all to the good. To the extent that some of the fellows are very senior members of the faculty or administration, you know that their time is very valuable. But is there anything more tangible that that?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Academic Athletic Fellows


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 23:34:59 06/27/18 Wed

AO —

Apologies for missing your question — I’ve been stretched thin.

From what I’ve seen, it varies somewhat by faculty member and team, although they are weeded out annually via athletic department reporting paperwork. The model for the program, sociology dept. chair Marvin Bressler, couldn’t be pried away from the men’s basketball team with a crowbar during the season. I also heard through the grapevine — I have no idea if it’s true — that he was a major player in recruiting Courtney Banghart, as well as other coaches in various sports when Gary Walters called his number. Others no doubt just became attached to sports they’ve played themselves. But as powerful as the faculty is at Princeton — far more than all of extracurricular combined — it represents serious intent.

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