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Subject: Re: Why the Ivy League might finally be ready to compete in the playoffs


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 10:26:53 08/13/18 Mon
In reply to: John Poole 's message, "Re: Why the Ivy League might finally be ready to compete in the playoffs" on 13:45:17 08/12/18 Sun

As stated, I have no issue with any athlete who chooses not to attend a school that participates in post-season.

But the issue I have with your argument is that the ivies, as a league, do find it important or at least worthwhile to compete in national championships events in EVERY other sport, frequently playing institutions they do not consider academic peers.

And if an individual school wishes to bow out, seems to me they can do do, but I don't understand why that has to be the governing rule for all schools.

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Replies:
[> [> [> Subject: Beating a group of loser rejects doesn't mean a "national championship"


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 12:21:35 08/13/18 Mon

If we were still treated as a Division 1 school, that would be different. Being crowned the "best of the worst" is no thrill.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Beating a group of loser rejects doesn't mean a "national championship"


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 12:30:45 08/13/18 Mon

I realize the standard Harvard response is to characterize all non-Harvard types as losers and rejects, but most people understand that is a combination of insecurity and arrogance speaking.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Ivies are ALL among the losers and rejects


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:10:32 08/13/18 Mon

Apparently you don't understand how and why the FCS sub-class of teams was created. They are all, by definition, losers and rejects, including ALL the Ivies. The big boys didn't want to share the TV money, so the Ivies and others were just booted out.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Divisions exist in all types of sports


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 13:13:02 08/13/18 Mon


Under your logic, boxing should have just one champion and no weight classes.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Divisions exist in all types of sports


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 13:33:16 08/13/18 Mon

Oh, really? Just wait until the Ivies and their ilk are kicked out of the NCAA basketball playoffs in order to increase profits for the majors. In your view, we'll just be moving down a couple of "weight classes?"

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Check back with me when that happens


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:07:29 08/13/18 Mon


In any event, its not like we were participating in the postseason while we were considered Division I-A. So why take the split so personally?

Like weight classes, FCS is different from FBS. Fewer scholarships are available (85 to 63, IIRC). Coaches' salaries are not insane. Coaches aren't sadists (looking at you, Maryland). There generally isn't widespread academic fraud (none uncovered at least). There's nothing to apologize for playing for a championship among schools that follow your classification.

And the football itself is competitive. While maybe the casual fan isn't following the FCS playoffs, NFL scouts certainly are.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Let me understand your point:


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 14:20:49 08/13/18 Mon

The "casual fans" aren't looking forward to Dartmouth (presuming they win some Ivy "playoff") facing off in Fargo against Northeast South Dakota State, but the NFL scouts "certainly are." This is the rationale you buy into?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Let me try again...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:28:21 08/13/18 Mon


You keep belitting FCS football as (among other things) "rejects" and "losers." Such pejoratives are entirely unwarranted, given the quality of football.

And you keep making reference to [Insert One or Two Directions] Dakota State. Are these the guys you have in mind?

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/8/30/6086977/north-dakota-state-fcs-fbs-STOP-PLAYING-THEM

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Keep trying!


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 14:45:33 08/13/18 Mon

The FCS schools - INCLUDING ALL THE IVIES - are, in fact, rejects and losers. They lost, and were all rejected, so that the remaining Division 1 schools could hog all the TV money for themselves. HYP could have stayed, but that would have meant the end of the Ivy League. HYP then voluntarily followed the other Ivies into exile. Don't be ungrateful, GG!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I am grateful for Yale


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:54:40 08/13/18 Mon


H and P (assume you mean Princeton) did not qualify for I-A status in 1981 and were in the same boat as the rest of us.

Although it's certainly plausible that they (and Penn) could have met the criteria if they tried, Goldstein locuta; causa finita est.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You are mistaken.


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 15:06:04 08/13/18 Mon

From a 1981 NY Times story:

"Actually, four of the Ivy League teams meet one or both of the requirements, but must go with their four sister schools into Division I-AA if they want to maintain a formal football league. All eight Ivy League athletic directors were present for the vote and said they would stay together. The four Ivy League teams that qualify with big enough stadiums are Penn, Princeton, Yale and Harvard. Yale and Harvard also meet the attendance requirement. The other four are Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: A link to the NY Times story:


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 15:19:45 08/13/18 Mon

Just in case you think I made it all up:

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/05/sports/ivy-league-is-forced-to-lose-major-team-football-status.html

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Goldstein would not have gotten it wrong


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:30:34 08/13/18 Mon


And he says only Yale qualified.

End of story.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Goldstein got many things wrong


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 15:50:55 08/13/18 Mon

His product is chock full of misinformation. In this case, he couldn't even read the NY Times correctly.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Name some


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 16:08:01 08/13/18 Mon


Should be easy to name, say, ten such examples of a "chock full of misinformation" from his book.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: A better book: Bernstein - "Football - The Ivy League Origins of an American Obsession"


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 16:24:30 08/13/18 Mon

You find the differences ... unless Goldstein is your brother-in-law or something. All his book is good for is the pictures.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I'll take that as a "none"


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:21:56 08/13/18 Mon


You're going to have to do better than that to back up those serious charges, my friend.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Stubborn guy, aren't you?


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 18:09:43 08/13/18 Mon

You reject the contemporaneous NY Times story, even though I sent you the text and a link? And you reject the Bernstein book which got much better reviews than Goldstein's (and got its facts straight)?

Guess we'll just have to leave you with your eyes shut hands covering your ears!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Nah- just a guy who likes assertions supported


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 21:22:05 08/13/18 Mon


You're the fellow who accused Goldstein of having numerous inaccuracies in his book.

Are you going to substanitate that claim or not?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No sense wasting any more time with you


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 09:06:02 08/14/18 Tue

I have given you one significant inaccuracy - backed up by a contemporaneous NY Times story, with a supporting link, and also by another book citation, and you simply close your eyes and cover your ears.

Like I say, one suspects Goldstein must be your brother-in-law!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No, I'm asking for evidence


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:01:47 08/14/18 Tue


That Goldstein "got many things wrong" and that his book is "a chock full of misinformation."

If you no longer stand by those statements because you can't back them up, then say so.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No sense wasting any more time with you


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 10:25:44 08/14/18 Tue

Go away, you faker. When I back up my "statement" - with links and citations, - you simply close your eyes and cover your ears.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I'll try lowering the bar for you...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:34:22 08/14/18 Tue


Instead of 10 inaccuracies in Goldstein's book, how about you just name five?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yale should have left at that point.


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 10:04:27 08/14/18 Tue


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: They didn't have anywhere to go


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:32:57 08/14/18 Tue


Who was going to take them? The Big East didn't sponsor football until 1991.

I suppose they could have tried to form a football conference among Eastern Independents, but it was far from obvious that the benefits would outweigh the costs of leaving the Ivy. As I said yesterday, its not like anything materially changed for the Ivy from going to I-AA. Yale wasn't going to bowl games prior to that time.

Yale probably also was well-aware that Penn tried to compete on a national stage in the 1950s but just couldn't do it while also maintaining its academic integrity. Yale likely figured that they would run into the same issues...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: They didn't have anywhere to go


Author:
Son of Eli (`)
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Date Posted: 14:04:14 08/14/18 Tue

I think the ACC would have taken Yale at that point.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ACC did indeed have an opening then


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:17:07 08/14/18 Tue


The ACC had seven teams in 1982. They gave the eighth spot to Georgia Tech the following year.

Whether or not they ever placed any calls to New Haven.... I have no idea.

:)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: ACC did indeed have an opening then


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 21:28:34 08/14/18 Tue

Or Yale, Harvard and Princeton could have all joined the ACC together (using stadium size qualification) giving the ACC an even 10 teams and preserving the HYP rivalry.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No that was never going to happen maybe in a dream


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 06:41:29 08/15/18 Wed

The only team that had a chance was Yale . At that point if they were to leave they could’ve done so a independent.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yale? No chance.


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 20:12:04 08/15/18 Wed

In 1981, there was no ACC school north of College Park, MD and just two north of Chapel Hill.

The only other school that would even have been considered was South Carolina, who left the ACC in 1972.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: DFW you have no idea,


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 23:18:28 08/17/18 Fri

Yale was playing Navy, Air Force, Boston College, Rutgers, Miami of Ohio and not only competive but they WON. Yale would and could go as a Independent. ACC sucks, Yale don’t need no stinkin ACC..

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The ACC Wasn't Looking For Yale


Author:
DFW HOYA
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Date Posted: 22:13:03 08/18/18 Sat

The ACC wasn't looking to the northeast in 1981, whether it was Yale or Boston College or even Rutgers. Where did they go? South to Georgia Tech.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wow very good..Thus if Yale were to do so


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 08:14:07 08/19/18 Sun

IT WOULD HAVE DONE SO AS A INDEPENDENT..!! I never said that the ACC wanted them. !!! Yale would have thrived..

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Be and Independent.!!! Come on


Author:
Ivy wanna be..!!
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Date Posted: 14:11:35 08/14/18 Tue


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Yale should have left at that point.


Author:
Steve Mathiason
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Date Posted: 19:20:52 08/16/18 Thu

There aren't many schools that can truly thrive as an Independent. A football school would need to have a special place or purpose and an appeal as an opponent to do it.

Notre Dame, sure. Army, BYU also. Could Yale have? Yes.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Yale should have left at that point.


Author:
Ivy wanna be
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Date Posted: 21:00:52 08/17/18 Fri

Bartt Giamatti, esentiially killed Yale Football, Frank Ryan was no help I was had a feeling, that hated Yale Football. That was one question I wished I had asked Coach Carm.
But if any team at that could it was most definitely Yale. I am sure if Kingman Brewster was the President at that time. We would probably be playing in THE BIG TEN..!!! That’s right..!!! LOL I wish . Thank you for indulging me.
Now where is that single malt.?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Yale should have left at that point.


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 21:48:22 08/17/18 Fri

Great points IWB.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Let me understand your point:


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 15:02:44 08/13/18 Mon

The Big 0 has a thing about Fargo. He reverts to this time and time and time again (sounds like he had a traumatic experience there).

His phobia about North Dakota misleads from the fact that FCS playoff games were also played in the following places:

Stony Brook NY
New Hampshire
Utah
Iowa (dome)
Harrisonburg, VA
Flagstaff, AZ
Elon, NC
Spartanburg, SC
Georgia
Alabama
Huntsville, TX

(Oh, the horror!)

I bet his hockey team would gladly play in Fargo for the hockey NC - which happened to be the West regional site- if it could qualify for, and make it that far in, the event.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You don't understand either, do you?


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 15:14:45 08/13/18 Mon

In hockey, as in most sports, the "championship" is actually that.

In football, on the other hand, the Ivies and the other "losers and rejects" must contend amongst themselves for a consolation "title" of sorts about which the "casual fan" cares nothing, as GG confesses. Rather (he apparently hopes) a few NFL scouts may show up in Fargo to check out the "loser bowl."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You don't understand either, do you?


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 10:09:48 08/14/18 Tue

You have harped and harped about North Dakota, whereas you are now making an argument that has nothing to do with location.

It's still an official NCAA championship.

You must feel that Division 2 and 3 championships (in all sports) are for losers, too, because D3 teams cannot compete against D-1 teams. Not to mention championships for club teams, for which I suspect more than few Harvard teams compete.

You disdain for other "lesser" schools has shown itself enough to be non-maskable by this now-professed belief that ivies are just as much "losers and rejects."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You don't understand either, do you?


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 21:28:42 08/19/18 Sun

To be fair, the NCAA hockey championship is contested by the "losers and rejects" who didn't get drafted highly out of major juniors and euro leagues to play right away in the NHL. Ain't no Connor McDavids or Sidney Crosbys playing in NCAA hockey.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Many NCAA Championships Contested By Losers and Rejects


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 22:38:05 08/19/18 Sun

Yes, the best young hockey players are nowhere near a college rink. Same is true for baseball players, though there are more exceptions in baseball. Ditto for tennis, for sure, especially on the women's side.

Probably also true for NCAA bowling championships, which is an official NCAA national tournament. Maybe golf, as well. And of course, at various points in time, the best 18-year-old basketball players have gone right to the pros.

Now that Observer brings it up, there are in fact relatively few NCAA championships which are not diluted to some extent by the best athletes in the country not participating. The losers and rejects sully a lot of our favorite sports.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Let me understand your point:


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:07:43 08/13/18 Mon

Some "rejects and losers" who made it to the NFL. It brings a tear to my eye when determined young people are able to overcome their educational disadvantages.

https://www.gocrimson.com/sports/fball/2017-18/releases/20170907eaqsqr

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