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Subject: Re: The Draw of City Living for Young People


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 12:10:12 09/13/18 Thu
In reply to: Boston Lion 's message, "Re: The Draw of City Living for Young People" on 11:11:53 09/13/18 Thu

Hi there, Boston Lion. No, I do not work at Columbia, nor am I an alumnus.

I am only speculating from afar.

But in my defense, while I am not personally affiliated with Columbia, I think that my speculation is informed by some facts.

For example, in the past three decades, Columbia has leapt upwards in popularity among high school students. But its popularity among alumni, as reflected in the donation rate, is modest at 31%. That's not terrible by any means, but it's not remarkable and has not tracked the increased popularity of Columbia relative to its peers.

When I hypothesize that Columbia has ceased to be its own draw, I think mostly of NYU down in Washington Square. As you no doubt know, the surge of interest and popularity in NYU over the past three decades has surpassed even that of Columbia. So if we think of NYU as the control group or independent variable reflecting the popularity of Manhattan among 17-year-old high school students, Columbia has actually *UNDER*performed since the depths of the 1980s.

Finally, if there were any elite university which could claim to offer a different product than its primary competitors, it would be Columbia with its Core Curriculum. Columbia is offering one of the more unique products in higher education. But how many Columbia students will tell you that they came because of the Core Curriculum? I'll bet that this number is minuscule compared to the number who say that wanted to live in New York City.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Draw of City Living for Young People


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 14:24:56 09/13/18 Thu

Appreciate your reply. Fair enough. But, three points in response for your consideration:

1. A data set that is informed by some facts, versus having been drawn from full-immersion experience at a school over an extended period, is necessarily much less information-rich, nuanced, and deep.

2. NYU is a fundamentally different creature than Columbia--NYU has a much lower admissions bar and significantly less financial aid per student--so I would not go too far out on the diving board when drawing conclusions about Columbia using NYU as a control group.

3. Maybe I should know this, but I'm just not aware of the dimension of the surge in interest in NYU that you cite. However, given that Columbia's acceptance rate is 5.5% versus 28% at NYU, meaning that it's 5X easier to get into NYU, some considerable number of kids, whose parents' incomes enable them not to need financial aid, will lob in an application there expecting to get in but hoping to go elsewhere, and using it as a backup school.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: New York University


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:17:22 09/13/18 Thu

Boston Lion, I appreciate *YOUR* reply and I think that your points are fair as well. (Your posts are always very well considered.) Please allow me to address your most recent items out of order.

With regards to your points 2 and 3, I think there is plenty of data which would back up my general observation that the popularity of Columbia, while having grown substantially -- indeed dramatically -- over the past three decades, has tracked a less steep trajectory than the popularity of NYU. If they were stocks, Columbia would be Microsoft, but NYU would be Amazon. In the words of Ralph Cramden, NYU's popularity has gone "to the moon, Alice!"

When you compare the two admissions rates, that muddles the fact that the two universities are of different sizes and that Columbia's figures are distorted because they do not include the School of General Studies, or Barnard for that matter, which although formally separate from Columbia, is as much a part of the undergraduate experience at Columbia as Radcliffe is at Harvard.

This year, NYU received over 75,000 applications. That's more than twice the number received by any Ivy League school. I'm going to guess -- and this is a guess -- that it's a ten-fold increase from the late 1970s, when both the city of New York and NYU itself struggled to avoid bankruptcy. The admit rate at NYU this year was 20.9%, down from 35.4% as recently as 2014.

I think there is plenty of data which would substantiate the outsized increase in NYU's popularity but, to me, the most glaring bit of data is the following. Every year, the Princeton Review asks its surveyed high school students to name their "dream school" and, every year, the top four answers in some order are Stanford, Harvard, NYU and Princeton.

The order of the top four answers changes from year to year, but it's always the same four. Now, which of those four seems different than the other three? I'll note that the Princeton Review also asks parents to name their "dream school" for their child and the answer is always some combination of HYP, Stanford and MIT. NYU never makes even the top 10 of the parents' list. Kids want to attend NYU because it's in New York, but their parents don't care.

But to address your point 1, you're absolutely correct that I'm just stringing together some facts as an outside observer. I have not been "fully immersed" at Columbia "for an extended period of time," though as I mentioned in another thread, I spent a considerable amount of time when I was single chasing lesbians. One of those lesbians was a student at Columbia, so I actually have spent a lot of time in a Columbia dorm in the fairly recent past. I think it's fair to say that she and her friends did not represent a scientific sample (of any population of Columbia students whatsoever), but in terms of my not meeting more co-eds from Columbia, it was not for lack of trying.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: New York University


Author:
Boston Lion
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Date Posted: 17:56:44 09/13/18 Thu

Thanks in return. Your posts are also well-conceived and articulated.

Maybe it's my twisted perspective, but I find the kids' "dream school" business a bit silly, so I wouldn't attach much weight to that kind of exercise. I'd be with the parents on that one.

I still maintain that NYU's high admit rate, low yield rate, and lack of financial aid attracts a different cohort.

As for NYU itself, I've never really gotten the attraction of a no-campus school consisting of unremitting masonry on densely packed city blocks with no coherent or centralizing sense of place (Washington Square is a city park and not campus land). I've always felt the same way about a place like GW. From my perspective, both lack a campus identity.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: New York University thread merging with the lesbian thread


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 23:19:54 09/13/18 Thu

Greetings, BL, on the eve of kick-off weekend, when all teams are undefeated and championship hopefuls. Good luck to everybody in terms of staying injury-free all season.

Don't interpret my comments about NYU to be broader or stronger than they were intended to be. I am not endorsing NYU as a college, Washington Square as a place to spend four years, or the Princeton Review as a college handbook.

I'm merely saying that there is a ton of evidence that NYU went from near-death and near-bankruptcy in the late 1970s to being one of the very hottest colleges in America today. That speaks to how much 17-year-old high school students want to spend four years in Manhattan.

This is to put into context Columbia's own meteoric rise in popularity, almost all of which I also ascribe to the draw of Manhattan, as opposed to anything specific to Columbia.

This is in spite of my admiration for Columbia's "product," the Core Curriculum, one of the few unique offerings in American higher education and different from what is available at the other seven Ivies.

All of which is to agree with Go Green's original point that Penn and Columbia went from Ivies substantially less popular than Dartmouth to Ivies more popular than Dartmouth almost entirely because of what was happening in West Philadelphia and especially New York City over the past three-plus decades.

I do think that the draw of Manhattan means Columbia attracts, at the margin, a somewhat different mindset of student than you find at (definitely) the non-urban Ivies and (probably) all of them.

Columbia students, especially the women, think of themselves as New Yorkers in a way that I don't think, say, Cornell students think of themselves as Ithaca residents. I further believe that affects how much school spirit there is at Columbia.

They're too busy to get off campus that often but, when they do, they like to act like they're not students. My Columbian lesbian paramour is an example. Again, she's only a sample size of one, but she represents the phenomenon I'm describing.

I went to a private party downtown. My date was the young woman who eventually became my wife. The new gal was a beautiful woman with the lithe body of the ballet dancer she had been her whole life. She wore more make-up than students usually do -- you know, getting back to my 85/15 hypothesis.

After some light flirting, she declared, "I haven't had any sex since my last break-up six months ago." Because I am a compassionate human being, I innocently asked, "Why did you break up with your boyfriend?" She batted her mascara-ed eyelashes and cooed, "What makes you think it was a boyfriend?"

I gotta tell you, that kind of thing just puts me into overdrive. With all due apologies to my wife, my new friend immediately became my highest priority.

Anyway, that's how I ended up spending a lot of time in a Columbia dorm. I don't think Dartmouth women are meeting middle-aged men in downtown Hanover and bringing them back to their dorms. Because they think of themselves first and foremost as Dartmouth College students, in a way Columbia women don't. And thank goodness for that.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Roger that


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 08:49:47 09/14/18 Fri


While I do remember my Dartmouth women classmates dating grad students and maybe local guys in their mid 20s, I can't recall anyone spending a lot of time with middle aged dudes...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: They can dress us up, but may not want to take us out


Author:
IvySportsJunkie
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Date Posted: 10:43:57 09/14/18 Fri

GG, undergraduate women dating middle age jocks sounds about right to me. My wife complains it took her a few decades to properly house train me after college.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: All power to the middle-aged jocks who can pull it off!


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:47:01 09/14/18 Fri


I personally didn't see it happen at Dartmouth, though.

:)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: New York University thread merging with lesbians, Dartmouth and Princeton 85%


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 18:18:32 09/18/18 Tue

Congratulations to Callie Brownson. The only Division I college football coach is now undefeated. Unscored upon, actually. Maybe she should retire now, on top of her game, like Rocky Marciano, Jerome Bettis or Peyton Manning.

Here is an article about Ms. Brownson which I think reflects very well upon Dartmouth football players:

https://www.fredericksburg.com/sports/virginia-native-becomes-first-female-division-i-college-football-coach/article_667b6e52-b775-11e8-8cc2-efbc8fc37159.html

The idea to hire Ms. Brownson was actually brought to Teevens by Dartmouth's wide receivers. Good for them. That says good things about them as men who are comfortable working with women, especially in an environment where everybody is measured unambiguously by whether they win or lose.

In other news about the 85%, I noticed and posted a few years ago about the best looking uniforms in college sports: Princeton field hockey. As I observed back then, the players wore these tight little orange skirts made out of some kind of diaphanous, almost sheer, material. Unlike some sports such as softball or Go Green's favorite, rugby, in field hockey all the players have great figures. Having these lithe athletes in those uniforms, especially in a sport where players spend most of the time bent over, made game photos a pleasure to see.

Well, I just noticed that Princeton field hockey players now wear black loose ill-fitting skirts made out of some kind of very heavy material. Honestly, it looks like burlap. The designer could have been Larry Johnson's grandmama. What the heck?

I did a little background research and it all comes back to my previous observations about the 85%. It seems that Princeton field hockey has had a coaching change in the last couple of years. The new coach must be good because the team is ranked #5 in the country.

But as I described earlier, women who are members of the 85% like to make a political statement by dressing as unattractively as possible. It's their way of saying, "I'm not going to comport to your oppressive hetero-normative fashion styles."

It's a shame, at least as far as it pertains to field hockey uniforms. By the way, when I went to read that article about Callie Brownson, I had to answer some survey questions before getting access to the website. One of the questions was, "What is your gender?" There were three choices: "(a) Male; (b) Female; and (c) Other, Please Specify."

It's a new world out there.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: New York University thread merging with lesbians, Dartmouth and Princeton 85%


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 20:27:47 09/18/18 Tue

I dunno, here's the PU roster, not seeing anything quite like the DC coach, not that that means anything (or that there's anything wrong with that anyway):

https://goprincetontigers.com/roster.aspx?path=fhockey

BTW, when asked for "sex", your best answer is "as much as possible."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: New York University thread merging with lesbians, Dartmouth and Princeton 85%


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 10:54:41 09/25/18 Tue

Sparman, I was not referring to the players. I assume that the team uniform is chosen by the coach.

I don't mean to be jumping to unfounded conclusions but, based upon my experience among the 85% and 15%, I am guessing that the new Princeton coach is a member of the 85%, not that there is anything wrong with that.

By the way, the Princeton field hockey roster you provided seems to be devoid of underrepresented minorities. I am referring of course to women who are not blondes.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: All I can say


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 17:52:07 09/25/18 Tue

I wish field hockey was a sport when I was there.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You're Welcome


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 16:31:50 09/30/18 Sun

Google "Dutch field hockey team." You'll be very glad that you did.

I think that's how I first subliminally became convinced that there was something special about short, super tight, orange field hockey skirts.

Make sure that you click on the Sports Illustrated photo feature.

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