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Subject: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 06:59:08 10/10/18 Wed

From Jay Greenberg’s column

BY JAY GREENBERG

After losing by 35 points last week, Columbia coach Al Bagnoli recognized Princeton’s 2018 offense as an outlier, probably the best he had ever seen on an Ivy team in his 27 years coaching in the league. After Lehigh became the Tigers’ latest victim, 66-7, on Saturday Coach Andy Coen offered a different context.

“They’re just a better football team than we are, clearly,” Coen said. “And there are reasons why they are.

“When you look out and their threes [third-string players] are beating our ones, that pretty much says it all. Give me the scholarship money the Ivies give that they say they don’t, but they do, then it would be a whole different look.”

Before Saturday, Lehigh had won five of its six previous meetings against Princeton.

Coen’s teams are 13-16 against Ivy teams during his 12-year tenure, 5-6 since the Patriot League began giving full athletic scholarships in 2013. These are not numbers that reflect a gross competitive disadvantage by schools that Lehigh can choose, or not choose, to schedule.

“I just want to be clear than our guys are not on scholarship,” said Bob Surace after learning of Coen’s comments on Sunday. “So many don’t receive financial aid at all.

“It’s an insult to insinuate that they are coming here for free because they are football players. I don’t want that misconception out there. Our players are not getting one dollar more than any Princeton student who needs financial help.

“It insults the hard work our guys are doing, the strength and performance development staff is doing, and the work our coaches do to develop relationships and recruit kids that fit our program.

“The vast majority of the students on our team are in work-study. We even have kids in work-study who are not receiving any financial aid, getting up early and working in dining halls in addition to everything else they have to do.

“Andy is a good guy. I hope he was misquoted. I just don’t want it out there that we give athletic scholarships. Because we don’t.”

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 09:38:07 10/10/18 Wed

Well-stated response by Coach Surace.

Interesting to note that the column about "Ivy football players on scholarship" that was discussed on this board recently (in the "Ivy League Improvement" thred) came from a Lehigh-oriented website. And, that was before the Princeton thrashing. Apparently lots of bitterness in Bethlehem these days.

An aside: Bob Surace was reportedly a candidate for the Yale job back when Siedlecki was run out of town. The job ultimately went to Tom "4th-and-22 / Rhodes Scholar" Williams. How different things would be had the other path been taken...

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Ted
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Date Posted: 17:12:56 10/10/18 Wed

Coen's flipping out because he knows he's on the hot seat. If he loses to lowly Lafayette;stick a fork in him.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:58:59 10/10/18 Wed

I notice Lehigh does not appear on any announced future Princeton schedules. This pretty much guarantees that won’t arise as an issue. A shame for the Engineers, for whom a game at Princeton is a big visibility opportunity in one of their prime recruiting areas. A truly stupid move by Coen, 66-7 provocation notwithstanding. The same is true of the annual men’s Bball game, which certainly won’t be helped by this. It’s safe to say Princeton has other options.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 15:06:17 10/10/18 Wed

Surace is being disingenuous and his argument is based on semantics. Coen never said athletics scholarships, he just said scholarships. There is no doubt the Ivy league has an advantage over Lehigh and other FCS teams in terms of total scholarship money. The YDN understands this well.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/10/10/by-the-numbers-rise-of-ivy-league-football-recruiting/

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[> [> Subject: That's pretty much Sprint's point


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:45:50 10/10/18 Wed


He's been rallying against "Harvard Scholarships" for years now.

To his discredit, he never mentions Yale or Princeton--who clearly have the same policies as Harvard.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: That's pretty much Sprint's point


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 16:02:30 10/10/18 Wed

Semantic garbage.

If you get into Princeton every student has access to a generous financial aid package based on need.

If you were the best math student/quarterback etc but had no financial need you get no money.

Scholarships are awarded for abilities, not need.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: That's pretty much Sprint's point


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 17:02:47 10/10/18 Wed

Not knowing how many players, or starters/impact players, on any ivy team get fin aid, I think the biggest problem with Lehigh coach's comments is that there are in fact players who get no aid. (And I don't think Surace is being disingenuous about this.)

Also, perhaps Lehigh could elect to offer fin aid on the same basis as ivies, although I don't know whether Patriot League rules preclude such a step (setting aside whether Lehigh has the funds).

I do think there is one point in Lehigh's favor. We know recruited athletes get favorable admission treatment (favorable, meaning that they get better admission prospects over other applicants, not that they are unqualified). Thus aid they get could be viewed as, in reality, an athletic scholarship because their admission is predicated on their athletic recruitment. I don't see a meaningful difference between that effect, versus a Stanford player who, while being an excellent student in a demanding major at a prestigious academic school, also gets an athletic scholarship - in many cases he would likely not be playing there if it were not for the scholarship/aid. We all know this to be true in some cases. Thus the Stanford athlete's scholarship is really a function of playing sports, same as an ivy athlete's. The fact that non-athletes get aid too does not change the fact that the ivy athlete is getting aid ultimately attributable to his or her athletic skills.

But - why does the coach complain about ivies when Lehigh schedules FBS and other scholarship schools, like Navy and Villanova?

I think Sprint's arguments are different because he is comparing Harvard to other ivies (well, to Cornell) whereas the Lehigh coach is comparing ivies to outside schools (Sprint also keeps saying Harvard is breaking Ivy rules regarding scholarships, which in this context I seriously doubt). Cornell's endowment is $7B whereas Lehigh's is $1.7 B (and Cornell's endowment per student is twice as large as Lehigh's), so I imagine the Lehigh coach would not think that's fair either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Coen's point


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 17:18:46 10/10/18 Wed

The Patriots are the only conference which attempts to mimic the AI in some fashion (e.g. higher academic standards for athletes than at most schools). If they can't offer as many "scholarships" as the Ivies, they can only pick from the shallow end of the AI-qualified pool.

Not to say that Patriot standards meet Ivy standards, but if middle-class suburban kids at the Ivy AI floor are great players, they now have access to play in the Ivies in a way that they didn't have before.

The sea change in how aid is awarded has led to much stronger Ivy recruiting.

The most likely retaliation will be for the Patriot League to dump whatever academic indices they currently use, to allow their coaches to get better talent than Ivy schools.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: There are other options


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:46:41 10/10/18 Wed


Among other things, the PL does not allow for redshirting or maximum scholarships permitted under FCS rules.

I'd imagine that they'd implement those before they ditch the AI.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: That's pretty much Sprint's point


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 17:17:54 10/10/18 Wed

No matter what you call it money is money.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: It is theoretically possible for an Ivy football program....


Author:
Ghost of Bob Blackman
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Date Posted: 09:48:37 10/11/18 Thu

... to have 120 players and have the parents of those 120 players contribute zero dollars toward tuition, room & board. I'm just saying...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It is theoretically possible for an Ivy football program....


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:06:22 10/11/18 Thu

...OR to have every one of them pay full freight. Neither is going to happen. So?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: We all know which end of the spectrum....


Author:
Ghost of Bob Blackman
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Date Posted: 19:19:59 10/11/18 Thu

...will insure the most success over the long haul, if only because there are more smart and outstanding football players in America whose parents can’t contribute anything toward tuition, room & board at Princeton than there are smart and outstanding football players in America whose parents can pay full freight at Princeton. If you think that Princeton or the other Ivies are not steadily moving down the spectrum away from full freight prospects, you are sadly naive. The only question is how far each program is willing to go. That possibility presents an incredible competitive advantage vis a vis the Patriot League teams with their scholarship limits.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: We all know which end of the spectrum....


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 21:10:31 10/11/18 Thu

Which is why the AI exists, and is applied uniquely and specifically to football.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
P-Fan
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Date Posted: 17:06:17 10/10/18 Wed

I said it once already on this topic. Lehigh has beaten the Tigers five out of the last six years prior to this year. Sour grapes and nothing else.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 17:27:11 10/10/18 Wed

Clearly, it’s been so long we need to reestablish some basic points. If a football scholarship student walks off Coen’s team, his aid goes up in smoke. If Lovett is getting any financial aid and quits tomorrow, his aid package is untouched.

Unlike Lehigh football scholarships, the Ivy students are in charge, and the aid offices control all the grants. Coen knows this, and is a complete jerk.

One fascinating question is why so many high quality coaches remain in the Ivies, given this relative lack of authority vs. other division I schools.

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[> Subject: Ivy Scholarships ?


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 17:35:25 10/10/18 Wed

you might want to read what Bruce Wood said this morning on his blog regarding his daughter
biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Scholarships ?


Author:
Jerrylh
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Date Posted: 17:43:36 10/10/18 Wed

I am confused. In the past 10 years Princeton has played Lehigh several times. Lehigh has won most of those games. Has Princeton changed its policy on financial aid in the last year or two? Does that explain why the tigers beat Harvard so handily last year after losing to them during the previous years??

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[> [> Subject: Re: Ivy Scholarships ?


Author:
O&B
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Date Posted: 18:00:10 10/10/18 Wed

I am so tired of hearing this crap regarding scholarships for players. My son has played for the last four years at an Ivy school. There is NO scholarships given. period. I have filled out the same financial aid forms every year. The same forms every other student fills out. Try giving credit to the Princeton coaching staff for their recruiting and development rather than coming up with ..they are giving the players more money. It's not valid.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Sprint66
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Date Posted: 20:13:50 10/10/18 Wed

Bob Surace is an excellent football coach and he's worked very hard to build a dominate football program. He also has some of the best athletic facilities in the league, One of the reasons Cornell has posted only one winning season since 2001 is the disparity in financial aide. I have talked with dozens of our assistant coaches in recent years and it's a crazy recruiting system in the Ivy League because schools like Cornell have to wait until other Ivies make an offer and then we can match. Which means over the past twenty years all we're getting are "second pickings". I didn't realize the issue until Kent Austin came to Cornell from Ole Miss where he was the offensive coordinator. Austin loved Cornell and the Ivy League, but he said our recruiting and financial aide packages were much less fair than the SEC. Coach Austin turned around the program quickly, but he quit after three years because he simply couldn't compete for players.

My suggestion is every football team in the Ivy League gets the same pool of financial aide for their recruits and then once you use it up, you're done. That's the way nearly every other conference in this country works. Cornell is the youngest of the Ivy League and we have excellent academic programs. However our focus is more in areas like biology, plant science, medicine, animal science, engineering, etc. which means we don't get the billionaire contributors like many of the other Ivies. A plant scientist working on producing the best grapes for the wine industry is not exactly bringing in the big bucks. An engineer working for General Dynamics makes a very good living, but certainly not capable of the multi-million dollar gifts. Our College of Business is fairly new and it will take many years for those alums to blossom into big time contributors. I am very concerned about the long term viability of varsity football at Cornell and some of the other Ivies as well. We can only support nearly empty stadiums for so long.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 20:33:42 10/10/18 Wed

I understand your position but you also have to understand that football players are going to get exactly what all the other students get at HYP, no more, no less. No one in athletics has any influence over that, nor will they get any. If any of the other Ivies don’t wish to play in that world, they don’t have to. Nor does Lehigh, of course. HYP are doing this as a matter of institutional strategies, and you might want to consider what would happen if any of them decided to just skip the trouble and eliminate tuition entirely.

In other words, if anything the league is headed away from your idea, not toward it. That’s not an endorsement, just a fact.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Bob S
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Date Posted: 20:37:18 10/10/18 Wed

According to Chuck Burton Patriot League teams can carry no more than 90 players and of those 90 a Patriot can carry no more than the equivalent of 60 full scholarships. The Ivies since they do not give athletic scholarships are not held to any such quota so theoretically they can offer more financial aide than a Patriot League squad.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 20:56:10 10/10/18 Wed

Interesting and accurate theory which has nothing to do with the discussion. They aren’t athletic scholarships. Out of interest, I did some quick numbers on the Princeton squad. If they have 120 on the roster with the average % getting aid and the average amount of aid per recipient, the Tigers would be giving the dollar equivalent of 51 full scholarships in aid.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Ptown dad
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Date Posted: 22:19:19 10/10/18 Wed

What is being unsaid is the value of admission. Admission to Princeton has incredible value so it is an inducement itself. Few, if any kids on Princeton, or Harvard or Yale or columbia, would have gotten in to their school w/o football. I know my son’s wouldn’t have. While it sucked to pay $50k+ for college, it was worth it when compared to the free education offered elsewhere. I can afford it thankfully, the people who get screwed are those that make just above the $ cut off, which is pretty low. They often can’t afford the cost of an Ivy.

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Annex
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Date Posted: 02:40:40 10/11/18 Thu

Coach Coen is a great coach and person. Most 'football guys' really like him - including Surace, it appears. This comment was out of character and I would guess that it was caused by frustration about the beat down.

That said, I doubt that anyone has ever turned down playing for Nick Saban to join the Lehigh team. I believe that famously happened recently with a Princeton QB right? There are a lot of qualitative indicators that suggest Princeton has a huge recruiting advantage over Lehigh. Good for Princeton!

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[> Subject: Re: Princeton Football Scholarships


Author:
Son of Eli
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Date Posted: 09:08:45 10/11/18 Thu

Surace was afraid to play Rutgers. He’d rather beat up on the likes of Butler and Lehigh.

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[> [> Subject: In all fairness...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:11:01 10/11/18 Thu


At the time the potential Princeton-Rutgers game was first broached, Princeton was a bottom-feeder in the Ivy and Rutgers was competitive. By the time that changed, it was too late for the P-R game.


Hindsight is 20/20.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: In all fairness...


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 09:30:01 10/11/18 Thu

Go Green

On behalf of all the Princeton posters on this site we would like the thank you for your support and wish Dartmouth all the best except on November 3rd.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: It's been fun!


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:58:04 10/11/18 Thu


When I was playing, D-P was the Ivy game of the year.

A shame that we aren't closing with each other anymore, but I'm enjoying it!

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's been fun!


Author:
Tad
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Date Posted: 11:17:56 10/11/18 Thu

Agreed, GG. Penn/Princeton may be a more heated rivalry, but you can't beat the history of end of season P/D matchups like the Elias vs. Fiedler years which as I recall reluctantly, Fiedler usually came out on top.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's been fun!


Author:
Tiger69
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Date Posted: 13:10:14 10/11/18 Thu

My context of P v D is my college years — 1965-1969. I believe that we ended the season at home against Dartmouth or Cornell, depending which opponent was to be a home game that year. In my Freshman year we were coming off an undefeated season (1964) and both P and D were undefeated through 8 games in 1965. Princeton was getting most of the press. But, Dartmouth cleaned our clock 28-14 and won the Lambert Trophy. This is not to suggest that P and D will again face each other undefeated through WEEK 7 — it’s a long season. But, if they do, I feel that this one should be ours.🐅

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Lambert could be on the line again


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 13:17:54 10/11/18 Thu


Whichever D or P runs the table will be a serious candidate for the Lambert.

But as you said, plenty of football left.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Saw Horse Dollar could be the most....


Author:
Ghost of Bob Blackman
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Date Posted: 20:23:03 10/11/18 Thu

....coveted prize in the Ivy League this year. Who’d a thunk it?!

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's been fun!


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:45:14 10/11/18 Thu

The 1950 edition in a hurricane is well-remembered, especially in the physics lab 400 yards away, where the entire roof blew off. Having spoken to a couple people who attended, seemingly 1) nobody ever seriously discussed postponing it, and 2) anyone who attended was clinically insane. Did you enjoy it, GG? 😁

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's been fun!


Author:
Tad
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Date Posted: 12:02:03 10/11/18 Thu

My parents were there, so I'll confirm the clinically insane part. Also don't forget the 12th man game.

https://www.si.com/vault/1962/11/26/592385/will-the-real-twelfth-man-stand-up

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's been fun!


Author:
Travis
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Date Posted: 12:31:56 10/11/18 Thu

The hurricane and the snowstorm are God's way of saying that Princeton and Dartmouth should finish the year together.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: If God was saying anything


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 12:47:52 10/11/18 Thu

Per the article, in the year of the snowstorm game Princeton played its final game versus Yale.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If God was saying anything


Author:
Travis
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Date Posted: 14:28:10 10/11/18 Thu

Fair point. God has been distracted lately, devoting a lot of His attention to Nick Saban.

If He were to ever really focus on optimizing college football, Princeton and Yale would finish the season in New York City, playing for the national championship in front of 60,000.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If God was saying anything


Author:
Tiger69
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Date Posted: 18:43:38 10/11/18 Thu

The famous 12th man snowstorm game was in 1935 between Princeton and Dartmouth. My father was there along with a few hundred other sturdy soles with nothing better to do. He would swear to it if he hadn’t died in 1998.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: In a just world


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 14:32:13 10/11/18 Thu

Both She and I would accept that.....

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[> Subject: Re: Patriot League Football Scholarships


Author:
Southbridge St.
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Date Posted: 20:14:49 10/14/18 Sun

The Patriot League established a cap of 60 full scholarships for football (the NCAA allows 63 for FCS schools). No more than 85 players on the roster can receive financial aid; i.e., schools cannot award 60 merit-based full scholarships, and supplement that with need-based aid for players not receiving merit aid. The football roster is capped at 90; before re-introducing merit aid, schools would often roster 100+ players.

Georgetown remains the only Patriot League school that did not go the merit route, but continues to award need-based aid to players.

Some of the constraints on total aid stem from Title IX considerations, with the need to offer merit scholarships for female athletes as an offset for those awarded to male athletes. (Title IX basically precludes Boston University from resurrecting football, as it already maxes out on merit aid for female athletes; a consequence of the undergraduate population being less than 40 percent male.)

The Patriot League AI floor is 168. Georgetown has the highest school-wide AI, followed by Colgate. Georgetown's use of the AI only applies to its football team. (Georgetown also has potential Title IX issues if it were to award merit scholarships for football, but not on the order of BU.)

Before the Patriot League returned to merit scholarships for football, it awarded need-based scholarships. It appears from old Title IX reports, that the amount of need-based aid awarded was the equivalent of 50-60+ full merit scholarships, depending on the school.

From the perspective of the Patriot League, Ivy schools, particularly those that are the most generous in offering need-based aid, could field a football roster with 60, 70, perhaps even 80 scholarship equivalencies. As an example, if 80 players on a Ivy League roster of 120 were receiving need-based aid, and the average need-based aid represented 80 percent of the cost of attendance, that amounts to 64 scholarship equivalencies. That could be higher if the football coach heavily targets recruits with family incomes of less than $125,000.

Where the Patriot League (and most other FCS conferences) get squeezed is that to create roster depth, a school might award 11-12 full scholarships annually, and 6-8 partial scholarships. A roster could be comprised of 43 players on full scholarship and 40 players on partial scholarships, and a few full pays. It is said that Lehigh overweighted the full scholarships in recent years, a strategic direction that could result in little team depth.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Patriot League Football Scholarships


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 21:15:26 10/14/18 Sun

The glaring weakness of the above described Patriot view is that any Ivy coach is going to somehow recruit based on family income. Having to conform with the Ivy AI is so limiting that any other non-football consideration for a talented player is essentially nonexistent, unless and until he gets a superior aid offer from another Ivy. The AI itself implies academic equivalence with the general student body, so that an inference of at least roughly similar aid patterns isn’t outlandish, plus a possible adjustment for any matches. As I noted above, if you do the math based on the Princeton aid for the Class of 2022, that works out to 51 full ride equivalents for a squad of 120.

And any hotshot Ivy player who’s AI qualified and getting an 80% aid package at Yale can be offered a full ride by Lehigh or Georgetown, and there’s absolutely nothing the Yale staff can do about it.

This whole thing is a crock, as it was when the Patriots were beating the Ivies regularly prior to going to their athletic scholarships.

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