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Subject: Surace


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 20:55:54 11/20/21 Sat

Princeton has won/shared 4 titles in the last 8 seasons. Surace inherited a program that had gone 3-4 in the League the previous three seasons and he started out 2-20 (1-13) through the first 2 games of his third season. Since then, he is 63-25 (42-21) and got his first title in his fourth season. Overall, he has dealt well with with the obstacles he faces in building up the program, although not always successfully across the board, and done well taking advantage of P's plusses. And happy Thanksgiving to all.

After the 2019 season I noted that his W-L record and Tosches' W-L record during the latter's best seven seasons were virtually exactly the same, including 3 titles. The challenge for Bob was/is to sustain success. He just did. But that challenge is an open-ended one. His has done a great job at Princeton and I hope he can continue to sustain it. Not everything is in his control. For now, a great season, and soon bonfire and banquet. Then... the cycle restarts. Cheers.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Yes, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 21:01:59 11/20/21 Sat


Kudos on the title, and Quinn Epperly's opinion notwithstanding, 9-1 is an EXCELLENT season.

But you can't help but wonder if Princeton underachieved this season. Everyone (myself included) thought Princeton would blow away everyone this season. While they did beat eight teams handily, they won one game on an extremely controversial finish, and got manhandled in the other.

You have to wonder if Surace is a victim of his own success...

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[> [> Subject: Re: Yes, but...


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 21:31:44 11/20/21 Sat

No, he did not underperform at 9-1 and a shared title. "Everyone" thought Princeton would blow away all opponents? With respect, where do you come up with these utterly overblown mischaracterizations?? While several things might be said in response, I will just note that half of the voters in the pre-season Media poll picked another team to finish first. Six picked Yale, one voted for DC, and one voted for Columbia.

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[> [> [> Subject: Please...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 21:38:08 11/20/21 Sat


Everyone on this Board (including me) said that Princeton was going to blow everyone away.

I certainly don't remember you saying anything to push back on that.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: There you go again....


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 22:01:55 11/20/21 Sat

Then you certainly have a faulty memory (do better research, it isn't difficult), in addition to now rewriting what you originally said. Now, its not "Everyone (myself included) thought Princeton would blow away everyone this season," which is what you wrote. Its now everyone "on this board" predicted blah blah blah. The media poll refutes your the overblown statement you originally made. I'll leave you to do further research on who said what on this board.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Just did a search, and...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 22:10:23 11/20/21 Sat


I stand by what I said.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hopefully...


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 22:18:20 11/20/21 Sat

...you do better with legal research. And no, I am not doing the research for you. And no, I will not be further engaging on your overblown post.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Please...


Author:
jerrylh
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Date Posted: 22:05:14 11/20/21 Sat

Princeton had a slew of all-ivy types and an experienced and talented offensive line. However, they couldn't open holes for Eaddy and had difficulty in preventing quarterback sacks. While it is true that they tied for the league championship, they were not as good as I expected.
One thing for sure, Princeton, won't be one of the favorites next year.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: You're an honest man


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 22:17:26 11/20/21 Sat


Again, Princeton has nothing to apologize for. They had an excellent season. They will get rings.

But my recollection is that people thought this Princeton team would comparable favorably (if not surpass) the 2018 team. However, they just weren't quite that good.

Again, they're the champions. That they won't go down as one of the all-time best Ivy teams is no shame whatsoever.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You're an honest man


Author:
Joe Friday
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Date Posted: 23:03:56 11/20/21 Sat

I honestly don’t know how any program can even look in the mirror and call itself a champion - let alone order championship rings and or trumpet it on Twitter or whatever - when they lost to the team that they share the championship with? How does any program maintain self-respect doing that? I don’t get it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You're an honest man


Author:
West Coast Crimson
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Date Posted: 23:09:50 11/20/21 Sat

Lol. You'd be amazed what motivated reasoning can do...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You're an honest man


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:08:56 11/21/21 Sun

I honestly don’t know how any program can even look in the mirror and call itself a champion - let alone order championship rings and or trumpet it on Twitter or whatever - when they lost to a second division team? How does any program maintain self-respect doing that? I don’t get it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: What does that have to do with anything?


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:10:59 11/21/21 Sun


I mean, you do know that Columbia finished tied for fourth place, right?

Or are there more than two divisions in the Ivy League in your mind?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: What does that have to do with anything?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 10:37:23 11/21/21 Sun

You do know what parody is, right? And quality parody, at that.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Parody at least has some basis in reality


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:50:28 11/21/21 Sun


If the situation that Calvin is parodying exists, it wasn't in the Ivy 2021 football season.

Is he talking about some other year? Some other conference? Both?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: What does that have to do with anything?


Author:
Old Lion (Columbia)
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Date Posted: 11:02:40 11/21/21 Sun

Second division? Columbia had a very good team which finished 7-3, 4-3 in the league, and had one bad game (Harvard, coming on the heels of a Yale game in which we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory). And Columbia had some excellent rookies (Canty, Green, Libman on offense for example).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Indeed


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:11:05 11/21/21 Sun


As is often the case, I have no idea what Calvin is talking about.

Indeed, I don't even know why I waste my time asking him for clarification... oh well.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: What does that have to do with anything?


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 15:15:22 11/21/21 Sun

And if you apply the metric some Dartmouth people (you, perhaps) want, since they lost to Harvard, they do deserve to be considered Harvard's inferior.

Do you ever think before you knee jerk critique?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I give up...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:21:26 11/21/21 Sun


I have no idea what you're getting at.

And I'm not going to attempt to find out.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: What does that have to do with anything?


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 15:23:02 11/21/21 Sun

And I am not even bringing up the fact that Dartmouth's loss was at home, on a big national broadcast.

Of course I mean to refer to Yale instead of Harvard, but point is the same.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You should quit while you're behind


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 06:10:29 11/22/21 Mon


First you say that Columbia was a second division team. Not correct.

Then you say that they lost to Harvard, which was accurate, but a complete non-sequitur.

Tell you what-why don't you explain to us why 2012 Penn should be considered Ivy Champions even thought they lost to last-place Yale that year. And square that with your theory that 2021 Dartmouth should not be Ivy Champions because we lost to fourth-place Columbia.

Is it because 2012 Penn lost to Yale in New Haven and the game was not on TV?

Is that what you're saying?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You're an honest man


Author:
MFK
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Date Posted: 17:32:09 11/22/21 Mon

As I said in a previous post, when you beat the team you tied with, it means you lost to a lesser team. How does that make you more worthy of a championship? It appears as though you're trying to say the game you lost doesn't count. They all count and the teams ended up tied.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Please...


Author:
Joe Friday
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Date Posted: 22:58:06 11/20/21 Sat

Agree - A LOT was made of the many (17?…I don’t know) 2020 seniors who took a year off, trained together remotely in preparation for the 2021 season…all of which was really cool to read about. The result is that expectations went way up for that team, and the reality is that they did not perform to those expectations while Dartmouth exceeded expectations. Part of Princeton’s failure was not doing more to control those expectations. The program reveled in the perception that they were the feared program for 2021….there’s a lesson in there somewhere. Princeton had a very good season. Dartmouth had a better season, totally dominated Princeton in their contest and therefore Dartmouth is the true champion among those who see things for what they truly are - regardless of the IL lack of tiebreaker idiocy - just as they were in 2019. There’s no getting around it, and there’s always next year.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Please...


Author:
Tiger69
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Date Posted: 08:37:54 11/22/21 Mon

GG: Sounds like sour grapes for having to share the Title. But, the Tigers weren’t the only winner to have a bad day (C 19- D 0). Two great, and well-coached teams SHARED the Title.

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[> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Ivy Inquisitor (tri- Champions)
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Date Posted: 23:27:26 11/20/21 Sat

What can Princeton and Dartmouth do about it? Do you expect them to play again next week? Both have identical records. As a result, we recognize them as Co- champions. Most seem content with that(myself included). If there was a Bowl game or play -off Dartmouth should get the invention because they defeated Princeton in the Saw Horse Dollar game. Joe Friday has a point on how can a team tout themselves Co- Champions when they lost to the team they shared the title . Question: If there was a tri - champion with identical records then whom is the rightful winner?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Ivy Inquisitor
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Date Posted: 00:07:11 11/21/21 Sun

I'm not a Princeton fan but I admire what they've accomplished the past 5 years. I would have loved to see that 2019 Tiger team face off against NDSU for the national championship. Would have been one of college football greatest games. I believe Princeton 2016 6-1(8-2 overall) would defeat 2021 Dartmouth &2021 Princeton.

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[> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Oamale
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Date Posted: 00:48:22 11/21/21 Sun

2018 Princeton barely beat a mediocre Harvard team. NDSU likely would have blown them out.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 07:33:54 11/21/21 Sun


Princeton was up by 15 with a minute to go before Harvard got a late touchdown to make the score look closer than it actually was.

I don't think that game was ever in doubt.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Oamale
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Date Posted: 12:16:18 11/21/21 Sun

The game was absolutely in doubt for a majority of the game. If anything, it seemed Harvard had the physical edge out there.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Oamale
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Date Posted: 12:46:08 11/21/21 Sun

It was a 10-7 game in the 4th quarter.

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[> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Tiger81
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Date Posted: 05:59:54 11/21/21 Sun

Bengal - thank you for your appreciation of what Coach Surace has brought to Princeton, which is a record of sustained excellence that had not been seen in generations. Tiger fans are indeed fortunate to have a man of his talent and character leading its football program. This year brought several challenges including a new OC, new QB and the loss of three All-Ivy caliber starters over the course of the season. But Surace and his staff and the super-sized senior class delivered another championship in a very competitive league where 5 of the 8 teams had a legitimate shot at the title.

9-1 is underachieving only by the standards of the once in a lifetime undefeated 2018 team. I won’t parse those arguments or wallow in the muck with this board’s trolls, instead I will be thankful for a return to Ivy football and another outstanding performance by the Orange & Black. And I would not count Princeton out to be a contender next year …

Congrats to Princeton and Dartmouth for sharing this year’s crown.

Go Tigers!

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[> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 07:18:27 11/21/21 Sun

Surace is “the guy” Princeton football has been looking for since Charlie Caldwell.

Ron Rogerson might have been but his life was tragically cut short.

The only question left in terms of legacy will be whether Surace is able to up scale the schedule to include a game against one of the service academies or say JMU.

Congrats to Dartmouth

Looking forward to next year, will bring flak jacket for game in Cambridge.

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[> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
P-Fan
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Date Posted: 08:34:12 11/21/21 Sun

I'm going to add to Tiger81 and M3's comments. I find it amusing that some on this thread believe that the Tigers underperformed this year. They had one hiccup this year and I believe that two road Friday night games back-to-back had a lot to do with it. The 2019 Dartmouth team was simply better than the Tigers. I don't believe that was the case this year. Just like Dartmouth had a hiccup against Columbia, the Tigers had theirs against Dartmouth. I've never been a fan of the "co-champions" approach in the IL, however, I also would not want a tie-breaker either to determine the title winner. In fact, you could make the argument that Dartmouth had a bad loss and the Tigers didn't. This is the second year in a row that Surace had to play a QB with virtually no experience. He also had a first year OC that needed a year under his belt. He lost three starters during the season, including Eaddy against Dartmouth. He's 27-3 over the last three years with two of those losses against Dartmouth and the other one against Yale, which was an aberration IMHO. So if you want to say that they are underperforming, it's true only if it's against Dartmouth. (and that's just during the last two years of play). I just hope that the Tigers keep "underperforming" like this year after year.

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[> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Lion Rooter
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Date Posted: 09:29:30 11/21/21 Sun

I am willing to let bygones be bygones and give congrats to Princeton and Dartmouth on being co-champions. To bring up other issues related to game results, referee issues etc -- it sounds petty to me.

Things do change in Ivy sports -- we now have a hoops tournament, so who knows maybe some day Ivy football will be in the post season - which could settle any issues about who is the stronger or "true" champion.

I suspect that Dartmouth is having a hell of a kegger right now --and Princeton might be having some pork roll sammies with champagne or those new fangled cocktails the kids drink nowadays -- LOL

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[> [> Subject: Re: Surace


Author:
Two Cents
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Date Posted: 09:49:15 11/21/21 Sun

Both Dartmouth and Princeton are very deserving champions. Both class programs and do things the right way. I don’t buy it that Surace and P underperformed. I thought Harvard was the favorite going into the season. Going 9-1 is a fantastic accomplishment in a very tough league now.

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