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Subject: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Two Cents
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Date Posted: 14:38:01 12/15/21 Wed

From Harvard Magazine:

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2022/01/jhj-sports-harvard-football-2021-season

“With the Princeton result still rankling—it forever will—Murphy had rings made for his squad that read “9-1.”

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Replies:
[> Subject: Sheesh...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 14:49:37 12/15/21 Wed


Can't help but wonder if Murphy would have ordered those rings if Harvard was still winning titles every other year.

Are they going to have reunions as well for this "9-1" team? Going to raise a "2021" championship banner in Harvard Stadium?

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:03:07 12/15/21 Wed

Murphy stole my thunder, but I was going to post here sometime that, if I know Harvard, they will have championship rings made.

An inscription of "9-1" is not quite as bold as that, but it's pretty close.

The broader issue, of course, remains that neither Harvard nor the Ivy League office have ever issued a rebuttal to either all the chit chat on this board, which I am sure was echoed elsewhere inside Ivy-covered walls, or the editorial in the Daily Princetonian.

Those of us who have attempted to approach this -- if I'm being honest, truly fun -- topic with some impartiality have yet to find any language in the rule book which supersedes Article 7.

At this point in time, Harvard says that they were the rightful winner because they say so.

I have little doubt that the press release from the Ivy League office on the morning of Sunday, October 24, was issued at Harvard's behest. That alone should give **ALL** Ivy League sports fans pause.

Seriously, that is concerning.

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[> [> Subject: Meh...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:25:36 12/15/21 Wed


As John Lyons once astutely observed, "Harvard does whatever the hell they want."

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Joe Friday
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Date Posted: 16:19:22 12/15/21 Wed

Well said. Regardless of whether or not it is utilized throughout the NCAA, Article 7 controls and Harvard has very conveniently not addressed it…and the IL continues to look like an institutional buffoon given that it never researched the matter before reflexively genuflecting toward Cambridge that weekend. Harvard is bitter because Princeton failed to do the “right thing”…they didn’t do the “right thing” in the minds of many, but they made a choice that was clearly theirs to make….as if Harvard would have conceded the game if the roles were reversed - yeah, right, no doubt…the really sad thing here is that Harvard is so out of touch on this issue that they don’t know enough to be embarrassed by their continuing cringe-inducing conduct on the matter.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Two Cents
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Date Posted: 16:42:41 12/15/21 Wed

I don’t think that the vast majority of Harvard fans expected Princeton to “do the right thing” and conceded the game to Harvard. Harvard doesn’t have a beef with Princeton, their players or their fans. Harvard fans are irate with the inexcusable call made where a replay official conducted a review to award a team a timeout. I do wish someone would get in touch with an actual NCAA rules expert like Mike Pereira or Dean Blandino for an impartial and expert opinion on whether the timeout should have been awarded via replay. They know the rules inside and out.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 17:48:50 12/15/21 Wed

I have no dog in this fight.

As noted in a previous post, the Referee has the final say with all rulings. If there is a disagreement between officials, the referee makes the decision --a clear chain of command.

Article 7, logically allows the replay official(s) to intervene if they see something impactful. Nothing in Article 7 suggests that the replay officials have final authority or overule the referee (aka Head Official).

Agree that the whole situation is sad--not a reflection on the players or coaches on either team.

Tim Murphy is not the first coach to do something similar--

Steve Spurrier's declaration of the SEC Championship Team after the SEC retroactively cancelled their championship, (but not requiring forfeit of their games). This occured due to NCAA sanctions based on conduct two HCs and five years before. The SEC Champions is still painted on the stadium.

And more recently, UCF's undefeated season--including 3 wins over top 20 team-- and declaration of national championships including rings.

I am sure there are more examples.

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[> [> [> Subject: To Joe


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 17:28:11 12/15/21 Wed

You are hereby promoted to lieutenant. Jack Webb would be so proud.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: To Joe


Author:
Joe Friday
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Date Posted: 19:00:47 12/15/21 Wed

Just so there’s no misunderstanding, Jack Webb and I agree that the right thing to do would have been for Princeton to concede the victory even though they certainly didn’t have to. Easy for me to say, I know, but it would have been a big time character and leadership move by Princeton at a time when such examples are so very rare, sadly. It would have demonstrated that there are times when you just have to step up and exceed expectations, and it would have reinforced Princeton’s (as well as the entire IL’s) reputation even more if that’s possible.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: To Joe


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 20:35:25 12/15/21 Wed

Busted to patrol. Jack doesn't even know you.

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Bengal
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Date Posted: 17:10:29 12/15/21 Wed

This article and its contents regarding the Princeton game concern me as much as Harvard's claim it invented football.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 17:56:48 12/15/21 Wed

The reporting is, let us say cautiously, incomplete. The headline editing is irresponsible: even quotation marks around STOLEN would be a serious improvement.

As a longtime reader of the magazine, which is certainly one of the preeminent independent alumni journals in the country, this is far beneath their capabilities and their track record. Highly disappointing.

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Moonbear
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Date Posted: 17:13:53 12/15/21 Wed

I hope Princeton spends the next 10 years trolling Murphy and Harvard about this. What a bunch of crybabies.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 17:42:53 12/15/21 Wed

Tiger Band is warming up a chorus of Tears on My Pillow even as we speak…

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 20:25:32 12/15/21 Wed

unfortunately it sounds like Eye of the Tiger. Cause they aren't very good musicians. Like most Ivy bands.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 19:55:49 12/15/21 Wed

I doubt Princeton or any other ivy needs an excuse to troll Harvard, and for more than 10 years.

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[> Subject: PSU 1994, UCF 2017


Author:
Ivy Inquisitor (Surprising move)
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Date Posted: 17:48:01 12/15/21 Wed

It didn’t expect Harvard to proclaim themselves league champions. What I expected from them was the Barney Fife “Aw shucks what can you do?”. I like Coach Murphy’s action.For better or worse the call must stand and Princeton should keep the win. This is just like 2017 UCF when they proclaimed themselves national champions. UCF put their money where their mouth is by purchasing team championship rings, stadium banner, parade and they gave the coaching staff the national champions bonus stipend. One of the 40 NCAA -sanctioned ranking systems awarded UCF national championship. The NCAA record books state Alabama and UCF Co- champions. In 1994 Pennsylvania St. lobbied for a split national championship .Much like UCF they ignored the polls a proclaimed themselves national champions. PSU printed national champions t-shirts ,hats and rings. I’m not entirely sure but I think the NCAA has since recognized PSU as 1994 Co- champions. Ivy can do the same by officially awarding Harvard a tri- champions. This action won’t effect Princeton and Dartmouth in any way. If a few of our institution president’s /AD’s where interested enough to press the matter would the league office award a tri- championship?

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[> [> Subject: Hell...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:53:02 12/15/21 Wed


Princeton awarded itself a bunch of "National Championships" in the 19th Century even though they weren't playing other national powers (H & Y) over rules disputes.

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[> [> Subject: And...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 17:54:48 12/15/21 Wed


Even if Harvard does print themselves rings and makes banners, the actual trophy isn't spending any time in Cambridge next season--unless Princeton is willing to share some if its months hosting the trophy with Harvard.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: And...


Author:
Two Cents
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Date Posted: 18:14:39 12/15/21 Wed

Slightly different subject, but I’ve always wondered why the Ivy League doesn’t use head to head to award the championship to one team if there is a tie at the end of the season.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: I can take a pretty good guess why


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 18:22:39 12/15/21 Wed


The first tied championship was in 1961 between Harvard and Columbia and...

.... Columbia won the head-on game.

Draw your own conclusions from that.

:)

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: And...


Author:
bulldog10jw
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Date Posted: 20:05:12 12/15/21 Wed

Until conference championship games became common, most power conferences awarded co-championships and used head to head only to decide who would go to the conference affiliated Bowl game. If the Ivy League ever woke up and sent a team to the FCS playoffs, I'm sure head to head would decide the league representative in case of co-champions.

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[> Subject: If there is one thing I have learned on this Board


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 19:21:11 12/15/21 Wed

It is that people gonna believe what they want to believe, ivy educated or not.

Well, and that every thread is really about Dartmouth, even if the original poster does not know it.

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[> [> Subject: Post of the year


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 09:31:27 12/16/21 Thu

...and that first item is true of life in general these days, not just this board.

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[> [> [> Subject: And if you were paying a reasonable amount of attention, voy......


Author:
Valmas (Seized)
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Date Posted: 08:38:55 12/17/21 Fri

you'd know that an Observer submitted a piece on that first item over two months ago. So, if you're calling it Post of the Year, note that it has co-producers; just as we now have co-champions in our football league.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Yes


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 09:40:00 12/17/21 Fri

I realized after the post that AO originated the observation stated above. Credit to him.

His ring can say "10-0" without objection from me.

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[> [> Subject: rightfully so Cal


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 17:42:20 12/16/21 Thu

bc we are and always have been the invading Mongol horde from the north country wilderness, feared by all captured aptly by the famous line from Dartmouth's in Town again pep song
"Run Girls Run" most likely bc at the time of its writing and thru half of my years we had none

but we did have the Friday night bus from Colby Jr, luckily my frequent date used to catch a ride back in the morning with someone who worked there

I might even be tempted to attend the steel cage death match next year between harvard and Princeton to cheer on my friend bob for one reason and one reason only

Harvard Sux and all 10,00 men are obnoxious aholes IMHO LOL

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[> [> [> Subject: Speaking of mongols


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 18:55:27 12/16/21 Thu

Did you know Genghis Khan's DNA is the most common and "widely distributed" in the world? https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan

Now, the girls in his case did not have much say in the matter. But if the educated and emancipated lasses in and near Hanover had heeded your song's admonition, we would not have the Dartmouth infestation we currently endure. The frustration of a few would have been well worth the greater good.

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[> [> [> Subject: infestation?????


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 19:32:59 12/16/21 Thu

LOL rather harsh Cal don't you think
"we would not have the Dartmouth infestation we currently endure. The frustration of a few would have been well worth the greater good". I am of the firm belief that this board and frankly the rest of the world is a better place bc of Dartmouth people like me, just ask GG I am sure he will agree

After all, what we do with out clever nicknames and the content reminder of how really important the Sawhorse Dollar real is, not to mention my constant reminder of who the real Yale coach is

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: rightfully so Cal


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 21:58:42 12/16/21 Thu

I did not fully appreciate the substantive difference between an invading horde and an infestation. I will strive to keep it in mind going forward.

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Grin and Bear It (class)
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Date Posted: 22:37:14 12/15/21 Wed

I think coach Murphy did the wrong thing, and I hope it doesn't negatively impact the Harvard players. As I have stated in the past, I think H won the game, but I also think they should have accepted the result graciously. Despite the bitter result, it was also a great learning experience for the Harvard players. Injustice is part of life, and knowing how you felt when you were the victim of injustice should make you more aware of the injustice that goes on all around you. And if you remember how bad you felt, you are in a much better position to understand how the other guy feels. And hopeful your empathy will motivate you to do something about it.

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
joiseyfan
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Date Posted: 11:30:35 12/16/21 Thu

Having tried to redigest the above sprawling mess, I think I prefer Pete Carril’s approach — also a nudge to those who don’t think Princeton has ever been similarly zapped — “We’ll take it up with God when we get there.”

https://www.si.com/longform/princeton-georgetown/index.html

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[> [> Subject: I think God heard his prayers


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:35:03 12/16/21 Thu


While beating Georgetown in 1989 would have been epic, beating UCLA In 1996 was pretty darn awesome as well.

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Huckleberry
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Date Posted: 19:05:35 12/16/21 Thu

Pathetic move by Murphy. Refs make mistakes all the time. What if Harvard had been robbed of a pick 6 earlier in the game because of a BS offensive pass interference penalty, would Murphy still get 9-1 rings? That technically would have allowed Harvard to win in regulation. This is about Murphy and his ego taking a hit due to his inability to win big games. He hasn't beaten an ivy front runner in 5+ years. Maybe Harvard should consider moving on to another coach who can properly utilize Harvard's deep talent pool.

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[> [> Subject: I understand your larger point, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 19:13:14 12/16/21 Thu


Usually offensive pass interference calls get declined when the play results in a pick 6.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: I understand your larger point, but...


Author:
Huckleberry
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Date Posted: 20:43:16 12/16/21 Thu

My mistake,*defensive interference

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[> [> Subject: watch out


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 19:24:39 12/16/21 Thu

my early fav for the title next year is unfortunately the 10K aholes bc they are loaded with 2 best RB's maybe two best QBs and a lotto returning OL and DL

I think Dartmouth will be lucky to finish in the top half with the resurgence of Columbia with returning ROY, my friend Bob's always tough tigers and the incredible unprecedented recruiting class that Brown is bringing in, Lest we not forget Tony Romo's always tough bulldogs


We are losing a lot, the Slender Slinger, Mangas Flores Mackie into the transfer portal just to name a few, could be a lean year and as a result I am worried.

Please Pray for me and the Dartmouth football team bc we are going to need it. Maybe I will just have to relax by going to Robert Kraft's fav spa not to far down the road

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[> [> [> Subject: Monday's Zoom call with Teevens should be interesting


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 05:56:04 12/17/21 Fri


He never goes into the type of detail that Murphy apparently did when he addresses Friends of Dartmouth Football.

But it should be interesting!

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Old Liuon (Ill grace)
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Date Posted: 09:09:00 12/17/21 Fri

I am frankly disappointed in Coach Murphy. It is almost Trumpian to claim that the title was effectively stolen. Is this the type of life lesson that coaches should impart? Life is full of unlucky and unfair breaks—get used to it and get past them when they occur. As I said this gesture by Murphy comes with particular ill grace and stains his legacy.

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[> [> [> Subject: Huh?


Author:
Valmas (Stunned)
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Date Posted: 23:35:38 12/18/21 Sat

Funny that I recall reading the words of someone that implied Princeton stole a game on October 2nd, and that Yale basically did the same on October 30th. So perhaps the life lesson is that unlucky and unfair breaks are material during the month of October.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Tiger69
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Date Posted: 09:32:31 12/17/21 Fri

I confess that I had some sympathy for harvard players as I watched the very even and hard-fought overtime WON BY PRINCETON 18-16. At the time I felt that a regulation tie would have been more appropriate ending. But we don’t want to accept ties anymore. And even if we did, the end result would have been an outright Championship for Dartmouth (6-1) and a 2nd place TIE between Princeton and harvard (5-1-1). Come to think of it I’d rather share just about anything with Dartmouth rather than harvard.🐅🤔😎

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[> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Woodsman
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Date Posted: 09:17:05 12/17/21 Fri

So far Mangas is the only player to officially announce he is leaving. Flores, Mackie, and Johnson have all indicated that returning to the Big Green is still an option. The offense is losing Kyler, Guidone, Hecimovich, Jones, and Mangas. There is still plenty of talent at the skills and if Flores comes back, that would mean 3 out of the 5 starting lineman are set. Coach Clark has done an amazing job replacing top O lineman and next season should be no different. Mackie and Johnson are big if’s as far as the defense is concerned but remember, last years unit had 2 returning starters. Cokes, DiLeo, Jefferson, Schmidt , and Reece are all back up front. OLB White, Pupel, and safety Arello are all back. DC Dobes is the best in the business and will no doubt fill in the blanks to field a top notch defense. The biggest loss is Kyler. How Daft decides to fill that void will be interesting. Does Howard play a bigger role in the passing game or does he get a younger guy like Cadwallader into the mix?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Harvard Football’s Stolen Ivy League Title


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:43:57 12/17/21 Fri


If Mackie and Johnson return, then Dartmouth is fine. All due respect to everyone else, but those guys will be front-runners for the Bushnell if they return.

I agree with your assessment on offense. Kyler will be impossible to replace. Howard will likely spend time at the Manning Passing Academy. Cadwallader looked fine in garbage time last season. If he can show that he's the guy, then great! If not, then perhaps Lingle can help us move the ball. Who ever is the "throwing" QB should have great targets to throw at and capable runners to hand the ball to.

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[> Subject: When Harvard Players Wear Their Rings Out and About


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 10:47:02 12/17/21 Fri

My athletic career did not culminate in any Ivy League championship rings nor, conspicuously, any collegiate varsity team at all. I'll have to leave first hand experience with Ivy championship jewelry to others.

But I would imagine that one aspect of having a title ring is that, if one chooses to wear it (not my style in any event), one gets questions about it. Then one can proudly or modestly answer and give details about the days of vigor and accomplishment in one's youth. Perhaps the listener will be impressed.

But can you imagine a Harvard 2021 football player explaining the circumstances of the "9-1" inscribed on his ring?

I would think that many listeners, instead of being impressed, would think, if not say out loud, "You and your teammates are d--chebags."

If a Harvard player wears his ring to his job interview at Goldman Sachs, he's not going to inspire, "This young man is the kind of hard-working team player we want." How many times have I been told by my boss (or the firm's risk manager), "See the world as it is, not as you want it to be."

Seriously, the Goldman Sachs interviewer is going to note on his sheet, "This young man is the kind of delusional, reality-denying narcissist who leads to huge blow-ups on the trading floor. Reject."

These Harvard football players will learn soon enough never to wear their 2021 season-celebrating "9-1" rings in public. They'll learn soon enough that nobody feels sorry for them, except Two Cents and John Harvard.

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[> [> Subject: Re: When Harvard Players Wear Their Rings Out and About


Author:
Two Cents
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Date Posted: 11:50:33 12/17/21 Fri

Ha! You may in fact be correct. But I sense from all the comments on this issue that the majority of the posters do in fact feel sorry for the Harvard players in terms of the result of that game. Maybe not feeling sorry for Harvard, the institution.

Also, I highly doubt Ivy players wear their rings that often - especially not to a job interview. I think most would wear their rings to alumni events. GG may be able to weigh in on how often he wears his ring.

I am on the fence whether Murphy should have had the rings unscripted with “9-1”. But I do understand why he did it.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: When Harvard Players Wear Their Rings Out and About


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 12:02:16 12/17/21 Fri

TC, you make a good point. Your response is better and more nuanced than my original post.

Yes, I think that a lot of observers would have some sympathy, perhaps a great deal of sympathy for Harvard *players*. Indeed, I feel for them inasmuch as they played well in an intense game and had three apparently game-winning two-point conversions taken off the scoreboard for a variety of reasons. That's an emotional roller coaster beyond the usual game-ending theatrics.

So you are right.

Further, I would have even more sympathy, understanding and perhaps even go over to the other side of the issue if somebody, somewhere could find language which supersedes Article 7.

And I doubt that any Harvard players will be explaining Article 7 to folks who inquire about their rings.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: When Harvard Players Wear Their Rings Out and About


Author:
Calvin
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Date Posted: 13:20:13 12/17/21 Fri

But in the current entertainment vernacular, it probably makes them feel pretty, and witty, and bright.

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[> [> [> Subject: Anyone who cares


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 16:27:58 12/17/21 Fri


I wore my first ring quite often when I received it my sophomore spring. After the novelty wore off, and I got two others, I only wore them for special Dartmouth-related occasions and stuff like job interviews where I thought it would be a good conversation piece (i.e., I knew that the interviewer liked football).

But I think most guys have either lost them or put them in a drawer and left them there. Even at our championship team reunions (all three teams), only a handful of guys wear their rings.

That said, it was really cool to see that picture on BGA a few weeks back of Zach and Griff Lehman (father and son) pose with their rings with big smiles on their faces.

:)

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