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Subject: The new age of college athletics


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 09:02:31 01/04/22 Tue

Former UCF QB Dillon Gabriel enters the portal, commits to UCLA, then flips to Oklahoma.

Star Oklahoma QB Caleb Williams surprisingly entered the portal but says he may remain a Sooner.

Unlike the National Letters of Intent, there is no contractual obligation for those entering the portal—meaning they can change their mind or be flipped for better sponsorship deals or playing scenarios.

Depending on your views, this is either the next level of player empowerment and free enterprise within college sports … or the beginning of the apocalypse of players as mercenaries, chasing the highest $ with little regard for the goal of developing student-athletes, and loyalty to team and school.

Personally, I am watching with interest.
I see both sides and have no idea where this will end. I suspect it will get more bizarre and corrupt as the pressures on schools to “win NOW” and the $millions if college athletics grows bigger.

I cannot wait for the first athlete to sign a NIL promotion deal with an online gambling firm, beer, distillery, or adult nightclub.

Today, this seems far away from the Ivy League. But it’s impact on player movement will grow over time.

As they said on the old SNL Coffee Talk sketch … "talk amongst yourselves … discuss"

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Lurker
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Date Posted: 09:21:41 01/04/22 Tue

I am generally in favor of athletes getting paid and having more autonomy over where they attend/play. Yes this will change college athletics dramatically, but the status quo of multi-billion dollar businesses not paying their workforce (except of course for the $10-20M schools are somehow able to find for paying current coaching staffs and buyouts of prior staffs) needed to change

However, it does feel like an opportunity for the IL to differntiate themselves. Money and player movement will probably be less important factors among IL teams. I can see a campaign promoting “old school” college athletics where the true student athletes take challenging courses, attend one school and get a meaningful degree and then move on to the rest of their lives. Just a thought

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[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 09:27:35 01/04/22 Tue

Something like 1300 players in the transfer portal.

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Diogenes
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Date Posted: 10:47:55 01/04/22 Tue

The cynic in me thinks that if illiterates can vote, why can't football players change colleges at will. The hopeful part of me says you still have to make the team and perform. The Ivy parts of me say what's wrong with getting an Ivy degree and then playing a year or two of big time football whilst studying for a graduate degree from Michigan or Cal or Stanford or Duke or Vanderbilt or Wisconsin etc. The "good riddance" part of me says "you get where you're going".

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 11:29:29 01/04/22 Tue

Did you mean to include conspiracy theorists - who likely are disproportionately large group of football fans - being allowed to vote as well?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Diogenes (sparman)
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Date Posted: 11:47:58 01/04/22 Tue

These days it's hard to find someone who isn't a "conspiracy theorist" about something. What I find most interesting is the tendency of "conspiracy theorists" to accuse others of what they themselves are doing.

As far as voting, I'll begin to feel better when most Americans actually vote. Almost no elections turn out even half of the eligible voters--kind of like student attendance at Ivy football games!!

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Transfer Portal COMBINED With NIL Is Hugely Detrimental to Team Sports


Author:
Travis
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Date Posted: 13:50:33 01/04/22 Tue

Most people are not stupid, but a surprising percentage are. I'd say somewhere between a quarter and a third, depending upon how high you set the bar.

And while most are not stupid, most are very occupied with living their lives, putting food on the table and getting their kids to school.

Here's another way to look at it. Surveys consistently show, across different administrations, that more than 40 percent of adult Americans cannot name the sitting Vice President of the United States.

Moreover, more than 10 percent of respondents, when given the name of the Vice President, cannot identify that person's job. That is, they cannot tell you who Mike Pence or Kamala Harris are.

And all of these people are allowed to vote. So in a way, it's a good thing that so few people actually show up at the polls. Many, many people are completely unqualified to cast an informed, meaningful ballot.

As far as the transfer portal is concerned, college sports is now a game of free agents. That in and of itself is not a huge problem but, combined with NIL in certain sports, will change those sports profoundly. For the worse.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Transfer Portal COMBINED With NIL Is Hugely Detrimental to Team Sports


Author:
Lurker
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Date Posted: 15:31:06 01/04/22 Tue

I personally think predictions of negative impacts are overstated. Freeing players to make decisions in their own best interest may actually bring more competitive balance to college fb. If you think of 5 star recruits as first round draft picks, college football works exactly opposite NFL. Teams that perform best divy up the top talent. Portal and nil may spread that talent out more widely

Also, even if I am wrong and there are net negative impacts on the game, at least partially addressing the absurdly exploitative system of paying coaches multi millions while insisting those who risk life and limb can not be paid has to be worth it. At least in terms of trustees of these fine institutions being able to look themselves in the mirror

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Transfer Portal COMBINED With NIL Is Hugely Detrimental to Team Sports


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 16:17:56 01/04/22 Tue

There seems to be a significant correlation among the general population between level of interest in football, and lack of interest in or knowledge of civic affairs and government.

I agree with Lurker that the imbalance between pay for coaches and non-pay for the athletes who earn the coaches their millions is absurd, but I also agree that the current NIL approach is going to produce profound changes for the worse. You cannot take just any medication to cure an ailment.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Transfer Portal COMBINED With NIL Is Hugely Detrimental to Team Sports


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 17:36:08 01/04/22 Tue

Sad but true, sparman.

At the risk of sounding too self-congratulatory, ground zero for the small intersection of the Venn diagram of people who are passionate about both football and civic engagement might be the Ivy League Sports Message Board. I wish there were more of us.

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[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
2-cents worth
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Date Posted: 10:47:42 01/04/22 Tue

NESCAC here we come. This drifting into a bridge too far for eight Ivy Presidents.

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 10:53:50 01/04/22 Tue

Unfortunately, this is the correct answer. Also note that ESPN+ doesn't broadcast the NESCAC.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
2-cents worth
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Date Posted: 13:42:42 01/04/22 Tue

That's a great question for the 8 Presidents. I'd be very afraid to hear their answer.

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[> [> Subject: Are you talking about all sports?


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:11:51 01/04/22 Tue


Because the Dayton Rule requires "all or nothing" for D-I participation.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Are you talking about all sports?


Author:
2-cents worth (Green)
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Date Posted: 13:49:49 01/04/22 Tue

response above intended for Green's comment

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
bonarae
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Date Posted: 05:42:43 01/08/22 Sat

What about the D-III UAA? Didn't they imitate our model in a multi-region D-III setting?

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[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Travis
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Date Posted: 14:42:35 01/05/22 Wed

As a fan, I do like more parity in college football. But NIL, while it will disrupt the existing hierarchy, may only replace it with a new one.

The going rate for Caleb Williams in the SEC sounds it will be $1-2 million. How many programs and their booster base/local economic ecosystems can generate $1-2 million to pay a college quarterback on a recurring basis?

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 18:34:59 01/05/22 Wed

I anticipate that the current asymmetry between the top 5 FCS programs and "all others" will become even worse.

The current financial strength, loyal support, and facility advantages will only increase the gap between “the haves and have nots”. The opposite of parity.

Today Alabama and Georgia are significantly more talented than the rest of the country--evidenced by the manhandling that they handed the #3 and #4 teams.

Texas A&M is very good, and just signed a class that may be the best ever (24 four- and five-star recruits); fueled by alumni-supported NIL deals.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
ivy guy (correction)
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Date Posted: 18:36:19 01/05/22 Wed

BCS... not FCS

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
M3
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Date Posted: 07:53:57 01/08/22 Sat

The answer for college football could be the same as the NFL

For any compensation beyond tuition there is a “salary cap”.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Transfer Portal


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 07:59:54 01/08/22 Sat

According to SI, 3,000-plus FBS and FCS players have entered the transfer portal in the past two months.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 10:07:02 01/08/22 Sat

The following is slightly over simplified, but salary caps are legal primarily because the players are unionized and their union has accepted the cap as part of the collectively bargained agreement. Won't readily work in college football especially when there is no single league (employer) with which to reach an agreement.

I have long thought the best approach for players is to create a trust fund, sort of like Social Security, for players that is funded solely by college sports revenues to cover scholarship, room and board, and a simple stipend for expenses, with remaining proceeds shared equally by players. This way colleges would not be able to hold the threat of financial support over head of players.

As to uncapped coach salaries, there could be a baseball-style luxury tax (actually an excise tax) on coach salaries above some level that can be very generous. I know this would trigger the anti-socialist sentiments and is unlikely to be enacted in my lifetime, but it is a mechanism that would begin to address the issue of using public funds (tax revenues) for non-educational purposes. One might hope that public institutions normally opposed to such a vehicle might be sufficiently tired of being outspent by the Alabamas of the world and realize they will always be seond best under the current system, that they would welcome a chance to level the playing field.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 10:34:07 01/08/22 Sat

Public funds aren't used for coach salaries. By law, many states cap salaries of public employees. Boosters and sponsors pay the bulk of the $10 million annual payouts to Saban, et. al.

As to the perquisites of having a state trooper detail... and lavish offices and use of private jets... that's something else.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 10:39:10 01/08/22 Sat

observer
I agree that the majority of Power 5 coach's compensation is paid from external sources (boosters, sponsorships etc).

But the NCAA requirements for "institutional control" mandate that the coaches be employees of the university. As noted, these salaries are not reflective of the total comp package.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 13:23:07 01/08/22 Sat

Valid point. It seems to vary by school and also may be more the case with P5 schools than others.

https://athleticdirectoru.com/articles/making-sense-of-college-coaching-contracts/

https://athleticdirectoru.com/articles/how-innovative-group-of-5-leaders-are-changing-the-model-for-coaches-pay/

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics- I agree


Author:
Ghost of 1961
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Date Posted: 22:05:08 01/10/22 Mon

Glad I can add something to this but let's talk the football side. The Power 5 schools have figured out how to create their own bidding wars for talent through NIL sponsor-subsidized deals. This spring and summer, FCS schools will send their staffers to clinics and think tanks so they can learn how to compete for talent. So very soon, even at the FCS level, you'll see only the NIL deal-deprived skill players in the CAA, Patriot, NEC and Ivy Leagues and the level of play will continue to bottom out. If you're all playing each other, you won't notice it. But if you turn on your television......

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: FCS level of play will actually increase - quickly


Author:
Joe Friday
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Date Posted: 12:37:18 01/15/22 Sat

The NIL effect is actually secondary, because the number of guys who are in that end of the pool is very, very small - generally, P5 and maybe a few G5 guys who actually play on a regular basis or who are projected to get on the field sooner rather than later….and maybe a few guys within the usual FCS powers in isolated markets who regularly play in December, but that’s really it.

What’s happening right now as we type here: the portal is like the low ground after a big storm: saturated, and it’s not draining. Two and three star prospects who weren’t realistic about where they really fit with on the field skill level are awakening to the fact that they will likely never get onto the field unless someone else gets hurt….and you can’t put it on film if you’re not the field. So, most of those P5 guys who have been sitting are hoping to land in G5. G5 guys in the same posture are looking to go to high level FCS and so on. Yes they’re all getting pushed down, but they’re bringing their higher-than-what-you-usually-see skills with them to all levels of the FCS. Sooner rather than later you’re going to see legit FBS guys grateful for the opportunity to actually play in the Pioneer League of the FCS…don’t get me wrong: they’re definitely better than that level, but the roster management challenges and sheer competition just squeeze them down. The level of play will go up accordingly, which will benefit the FCS, generally. I have to think that from a talent standpoint it will help the IL programs, because there will be more AI qualified guys who won’t throw the dice with an FBS program and instead will take the (likely) smoother path to the field with an IL program. It’s actually already happening in the IL.

The big losers in this are the solid HS prospects who just can’t get onto any D1 roster (FBS or FCS) unless they’re willing to take a PWO and prove it…you do have to prove it every year, but you know what I mean…and then financial considerations may preclude them from taking even that limited opportunity…at which point the JCs will see a pop in interest as more guys use it out if necessity as a spring board….but even they assumedly have roster limitations.

Programs from FCS and up will be adding GM-type staff in the next year or two solely to help with roster management and the ever increasing fluidity of the (effectively) free agent market.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: FCS level of play will actually increase - quickly


Author:
Ghost of 1961
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Date Posted: 18:30:35 01/15/22 Sat

You could be right, but the top of the FCS will figure out how to lure next level talent with NIL deals. We'll see if there's a further separation from the top to the bottom of the FCS.

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[> [> [> Subject: Saban agrees with Ivy Guy


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 16:12:47 01/11/22 Tue


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nick-saban-federal-legislation-needed-on-nil-rules-to-prevent-competitive-imbalance-184842142.html

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Saban agrees with Ivy Guy


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 18:43:46 01/11/22 Tue

Nick Saban is brilliant ...

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[> Subject: Dalen Cuff Bets on Columbia-Penn Game


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 12:04:24 01/08/22 Sat

Former Columbia hoopster and current broadcaster Dalen Cuff just appeared on ESPN's "Daily Wager" show where his "Best Bet" pick for the weekend is Over 145 in today's Columbia at Penn game.

Yup, it's a new era in Ivy sports, too.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Dalen Cuff Bets on Columbia-Penn Game


Author:
Greenhorn
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Date Posted: 02:53:09 01/09/22 Sun

And he lost.

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[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
ivy guy
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Date Posted: 08:12:15 01/09/22 Sun

Every SEC school (including Vanderbilt) will only receive $80-85 million from the new broadcast deal. For comparison, every ACC school will receive $31 million.

The top SEC schools now have director-level leaders and staff to help recruited athletes make NIL deals.Loyal alumni are stepping-up to fund these direct payment sponsorships.

Tha gap widens.
Parity is a fleeting dream.
... And so the new age begins.

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[> [> Subject: Would *YOU* Pay A Recruit to Attend Old Ivy U?


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 13:40:11 01/09/22 Sun

The game has begun. It has not yet reached our shores -- as far as we know -- but like Roosevelt in 1939, it's only a matter of time.

Someday, maybe three years from now, maybe five, one of your friends will call you and say, "We're putting together a package for a kid out of Florida who's 230 and can run a 4.4 forty. If we don't come up with enough dough, he's headed somewhere else. If we can't raise the cash, we'll probably have to face him on Saturday afternoons when he suits up for Harvard/Princeton/Penn."

What do you say then?

I find the whole idea of NIL distasteful. Some may argue, and I do not disagree, that closing the gap between coaches who make high seven figures a year (and keep making it after being fired) and athletes who make zero is an issue of fairness.

But is this good for America? No. I do not believe it is. When I get that phone call, I will decline. And then I'll watch as that 230 pound kid runs over my team on the way to an Ivy title.

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[> [> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Lurker
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Date Posted: 16:37:27 01/09/22 Sun

What exactly is it about young men getting paid for their efforts that create huge value that is bad for America?

Maybe what is bad for america is turning our educational institutions into sports/entertainment businesses.

Is NIL a perfect, or even good solution to the inherent unfairness of current system? No. But I think it is on a path to correcting a wrong. Which cant be bad (in the long view)

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[> [> [> Subject: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 17:02:33 01/09/22 Sun

Thanks for asking, L.

I am thinking most of the systemic effects on the high schools in America, especially those in the less privileged and poorer parts of the country which supply an inordinate proportion of the raw material, I mean, athletes to the sports/entertainment industry that we call college football and men's basketball.

For every kid who actually makes some money from his athletic skills in college, there will be at least 20 and maybe 100 who think that this is a viable game plan for life.

It's not.

It's hard enough already to get a 15- or 16-year-old kid whose mind is 60% full of girls girls girls and 30% full of sports to spend any mental energy on studying and applying himself to the traditional path of working hard on homework, getting a college education and pursuing a white collar career.

Now you're going to have college recruiters come into those same high schools and telling star athletes, "By the time you enroll at old State U in January of your senior year of high school, there will be $2 million in your bank account. Sports cars, Rolexes and -- Did I forget to mention? -- girls girls girls."

So maybe a few thousand kids who otherwise were supplying their labor for free to the sports industrial complex will now be paid something and maybe a few hundred will be paid big, serious money.

In exchange for that, tens or hundreds of thousands of kids will take school less seriously. Their life outcomes will get worse, not better.

So we are as a society exchanging a few thousand rich 19-year-olds for tens or hundreds of thousands of kids whose lives will be worse.

Put yourself in the place of high school teacher in an inner city like Miami or rural area like Philadelphia, Mississippi. You've got a kid who is a borderline college football prospect who also happens to be the best and brightest student in your calculus class. Maybe you had a chance of keeping him focused on calculus before, so that he could go to Duke or Vanderbilt.

No more.

We all remember what it was like to be 16. I wish all the high school teachers in America good luck when they are trying to get and keep the academic attention of a kid who, in the next calendar year, will make more money than the teacher will make in his entire career.

Our society will be worse off. What is the counterargument to this near certainty in the long run?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
Lurker
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Date Posted: 14:16:22 01/10/22 Mon

Dont those unrealistic expectations already exist in our culture? But I guess it is fair to raise the possibility of NIL deals increasing those fantasies.

I do think the Power 5 conferences do a much better job now of making sure high school fantasies of collegiate stardom are tempured with the reality of academic qualification and then actually earning a degree while attending football factory U. Enabling players to start life with some kind of financial asset to go along with their degree in recreation management would help those individuals

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:08:41 01/10/22 Mon

L, those unrealistic expectations already exist in our culture, for sure. That's why I know it's already a temptation and an easy way out mentally and psychically for many kids, especially those who are less privileged. How many times to you think a kid with some academic potential has weighed his options and incorrectly concluded that focusing on sports is the better choice?

Now it will get worse because the money will get closer.

Right now, before NIL kicks in, the money is mostly in the professional leagues and the college players who are getting paid under the table are told to keep their mouths shut.

So high school kids know it's a long road. They need to study to clear the minimum academic requirements for college, then stay in school long enough to cash in on their athletic skill, which we know is a long, almost infinitesimally low likelihood outcome. The smarter ones will conclude they need academics as a back-up.

Once NIL fully kicks in, the money will be available in January of their senior year in high school. Now it's not a remote, low probability event. Well, it might be, but the money will be more tangible and thus more tantalizing.

When I was in high school, the star football player who led us to the state basketball championship used to come around with his classmates the following year. They would hang out in the hallways reminiscing about their glory days. Now imagine this same scene playing out except he's driving a Porsche and wearing a Rolex. Now the kid who is still in high school thinks, "I want that. Forget choosing between the two long-run options of an NFL team or a white collar job. I can get paid millions NEXT YEAR."

Recall what you were like at age 16. Do you think that you would have avoided the temptation? This is bad for America, period.

And what of the kids who actually do bank a six- or seven-figure NIL deal in college? Sure, they've won in the short term. But how many do you think will be better off in the long run? It's the classic parable of the lottery winner whose life is made worse by the jackpot, not better.

Again, how would 18-year-old you have done with $2 million in your pocket?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
Lurker
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Date Posted: 15:30:29 01/10/22 Mon

Any or all of what you predict may come to pass. But - please dont take this as an attack - isnt this somewhat condescending? One of the only places in our society where the gospel of “get paid what you are worth” does not hold sway is among young economically disadvantaged men

I am not so convinced that among High school athletes there is so little understanding of the short term vs long term issues.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 15:49:40 01/10/22 Mon

Lurker, you are absolutely correct that it is somewhat condescending. The optics also look bad in that I am advocating against paying often poor young men during the one brief period in their lives when a (small small -- did I mention "small"?) percentage of them have a chance to earn some real money.

But I would say my pessimism is not based on any low opinion of the ability of the economically disadvantaged. My pessimism is based upon my observation of the human species.

I don't know about you, but I am a middle aged man. Decades ago, I went to college with a bunch of good guys and then we were launched out into the world by alma mater.

Today, some of my friends are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and a couple, I believe, are billionaires. Others of my friends have nothing. Little cash on hand, no retirement savings, selling assets to stay liquid. I look at their futures over the next couple of decades and I fear for them. I've seen it all up close and personal over the span of decades. Much of it does not look pretty.

A lot of the human species simply cannot manage their personal finances. All of us have a quirky relationship with money.

And these guys were not young athletes with no options in life. They were Ivy League graduates with the world at their feet.

So, yes, there is condescension embedded in my pessimism. But that pessimism is the product of watching a lot of people over a lot of years.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: A couple?


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 15:52:24 01/10/22 Mon


You got me beat on the "friends who are billionaires" front.

At best, I only have one. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: How NIL Will Undoubtedly Harm Our Society


Author:
observer
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Date Posted: 16:26:28 01/10/22 Mon

How is this unique to America?

Have you ever seen what South American clubs (Santos, River Plate, etc.) do to get young talent off the streets... and then package them for huge fees to Barcelona... who then run the price up before selling them to Manchester United... who then dump them onto an unsuspecting MLS or J-League team looking to cash in on a name player?

And keep in mind - there is no college in the offing. And yet, Maradona was one of the most admired men in the world, even when he died.

This isn't an America thing. It's a human thing.

And just so we're clear, college ain't what it used to be when we matriculated. Even at Ivy schools.

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[> [> Subject: well said


Author:
holtsledge
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Date Posted: 22:03:09 01/09/22 Sun

couldn't agree more

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[> Subject: Re: The new age of college athletics


Author:
Old Blue
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Date Posted: 21:03:17 01/09/22 Sun


Gentlemen; may I dare say so much for scholar athletes

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