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Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Tiger69 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 11:07:33 06/19/24 Wed In reply to: Jerrylh 's message, "disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season" on 07:30:59 05/31/24 Fri Perfect plan for a talented hitchhiker who wants some visibility, development time and snob appeal on his resume while fishing around for the best NIL deal.. A couple of years he stands out, wins a few honors and then moves on to a high profile BCS team or two for a big paycheck. He can never really incorporate into a team culture and doesn’t even have to write a Senior Thesis. As an Alum, I find this minor league culture difficult to get excited about. Big money has corrupted politics and now has moved on to college sports. We don’t need this. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:25:01 06/19/24 Wed You're not living in the real world, you're living in a Bill Bradley-Jim McMillian-Rudy LaRusso time capsule. If a bunch of mediocre players stick together for 3-4 years, you might win an Ivy title but your RPI will sink you into a 2-15 NCAA matchup. Nothing wrong with that, you're playing at a disadvantage, financially, but at a higher level educationally. Isn't that what you want? Tough to have both these days.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:37:09 06/19/24 Wed I'm fairly certain he has been consistently saying that he thinks universities should be dedicated to education, not development of pro athletes. There is nothing wrong with wanting a pro career, but IMO hard to accept that the fundamental educational mission of all schools - at least of ivy schools - should be altered to fit the desires of aspiring pro athletes. You want big time sports, fine, then attend or follow a large public school. I have yet to see a compelling argument why all colleges should follow such a model that means accepting a fundamentally suspect incentive system.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:48:55 06/19/24 Wed The Ivys are to be commended for sticking to that academic model. But let's accept athletic mediocrity in exchange for academic superiority. The league will still be fine in the country club sports but in the revenue-producing ones, keep the expectations modest. Nothing wrong with it.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Tiger69 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:41:19 06/22/24 Sat Ghost: I think that we are pretty much in agreement. I don’t expect that we want to appeal to the potential pro prospect or even to most power school level players. So, we get a crappy NCAA seed. With a well coached, cohesive team of 4 year players, we may pull an occasional upset. The Ivy Crown is enough for me. If we get lucky and find a 2* or better athlete who enrolls to STAY, maybe he gets a few bucks from local endorsements.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Tiger81 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:33:22 06/22/24 Sat I am with you. It was fun to live in the era launched by Coach Amaker and see the Ivies start to land big-time talent and challenge the big boys with their one-and-done rosters. But with the free agent, professional era that is now upon us the league cannot preserve its values if it follows that path. And even if it tried, the power conferences will always have more to offer athletes who put a higher priority on the level of competition to get get to the NFL or NBA and the big bucks that go along with that. I can live with the scenario T69 outlined if the alternative is abandoning the Ivy League’s mission and commitment to a true student-athlete experience for its sports teams. That value proposition will still appeal to many recruits who will be fun to watch for Ivy fans and put an occasional scare into the cobbled-together all-star teams from State U.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:00:21 06/23/24 Sun You guys aren't reading the tea leaves. It's not us who don't want to be part of their game, it's them that don't want us. Through House, we are overpaying to continue to be part of what will soon become a 72-team (or 96-team) tournament, with all the little sister conferences relegated to the Dayton play-in round. Eventually, that too will go away. Keep the ostrich thinking...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Tiger69 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:52:29 06/24/24 Mon So I’m an ostrich. I’ll stick to our values. As long as the rest of the IL joins us, we’ll do fine by ourselves. Maybe some other schools will eventually become disenchanted with big $ professionalism of college sports and join us.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: We already said "no" to Colgate Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:04:30 06/24/24 Mon https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1973/5/9/ivy-schools-deny-colgate-bid-to/

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: We already said "no" to Colgate Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:32:55 06/24/24 Mon I give credit to Colgate for asking. Can you imagine the effect on Colgate University the academic institution if the Ivies had accepted their request to join our conference? It would have been transformational. Unbelievably, Dr Pepper has passed Pepsi as the second most popular soft drink in the United States. Brand names that we take as fixed somewhere on the food chain do in fact move up and down, sometimes dramatically. Could you imagine a Colgate or a Bucknell or a Johns Hopkins after half a century as an Ivy League university?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I give them credit, too Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:56:54 06/24/24 Mon You never know unless you ask! I can only imagine how much schools like Lehigh, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Georgetown, etc. would be kicking themselves if the Ivy had said "yes" to Colgate...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:49:01 06/24/24 Mon NESCAC here we come.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Diogenes (observer) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:37:39 06/25/24 Tue More to your point: "NESCAC here we are". Except for Lacrosse, Hockey, Rowing and Wrestling, the Ivies are now the "shape-shifters" of collegiate athletics.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:41:52 06/25/24 Tue Even Hockey and Lacrosse only got the AQ this year. And didn't show that well... And Men's Rowing isn't an NCAA sport anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:54:34 06/25/24 Tue "And Men's Rowing isn't an NCAA sport anyway." So one cannot grouse about rowing being a step behind big-time athletic factories.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:56:41 06/25/24 Tue It's not like the Ivies dominate women's rowing over the past decade... https://www.ncaa.com/history/rowing/d1

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:12:51 06/25/24 Tue The big state universities have, with women's rowing, done a much better job of recruiting non-US students. It would be interesting to compare the respective football and women's crew budgets at these institutions. Note also with exceptions of U of W, Berkley and Stanford, none of the schools boat varsity men's crew. Kudos to Brown for what they've achieved. Brava to the state schools for giving our Olympic opponents unparalleled 4-year training.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:30:40 06/25/24 Tue Don't kid yourself. Many Ivy boats are foreign-born.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:12:11 06/26/24 Wed For the men, yes. On the women's side, not to the same proportion.

[> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Tiger69 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:35:40 06/25/24 Tue Observer (with lowercase “o”). I assume that from your frequent criticisms of Ivy athletics policies that you are an alum and possibly a former athlete. I don’t understand why you think it necessary that we imitate the policies of others who place a much greater emphasis on money sports (football and basketball) than we do. I will not argue that the level of play and the overall talent of recruited athletes may drop. But, the level of commitment and identification with the university should remain high when the academic role of the university is the prime attraction. Is this not more important than our NCAA seed in postseason basketball competition?

[> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: The Mountain LIon [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:24:49 06/26/24 Wed Just wondering whether anyone believes that Columbia Athletics can survive D.A. Alvin Bragg. How can you hold athletic events in Manhattan given that he has admitted publicly that he and his entire staff are incapable of successfully prosecuting persons committing violent crimes against Columbia students, employees and faculty. Is it worth taking the risk of physical harm to attend football games at Baker Field or basketball games at Levien Gymnasium? And how do the student-athletes feel if Bragg says it ok for masked protesters to demand that they disclose their religion in order to compete in athletic events.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:39:23 06/26/24 Wed Ridiculous post, sounds like you have an agenda against the DA for prosecuting a high profile criminal, recently convicted. I'm sure there are already high level discussions between the police department, Columbia security and Columbia's administration about these situations to maintain the highest level of safety whether you're walking through campus or sitting at a football game.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:49:14 06/26/24 Wed Fair point. I've been to games at Baker Field in which Columbia quarterbacks seemed constantly under the threat of extreme physical violence. Bragg never charged any of the perpetrators in blue or orange.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:38:44 06/26/24 Wed Recent events (including Students for Fair Admission v Harvard) suggest that pure merit-based academic excellence is far from the mission of most Ivy schools these days. Stanford, Duke, Texas, North Carolina, Michigan, UCLA and many other schools with strong athletics continue to rise in both national rankings and desirability among college-bound youth and hiring employers, despite these institutions participating in "big-time" sports. The idea that being good in sports is somehow antithetical to being a quality educational institution is false, and always has been. It also smacks of racism, as the two sports most likely to be sacrificed on the altar of "no professionalism" are basketball and football - both of which have many more black athletes (by percentage, and gross totals) competing nationally than fencing, squash, rowing, skiing, sailing, equestrian, rugby, archery, tennis, lacrosse, ice hockey and field hockey combined.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:10:18 06/26/24 Wed You are equating "strong athletics" - which I don't see anyone here objecting to - to participation in pro sports development and an ever escalating, probably unwinnable, financial battle with schools that prioitize sports over education. How many more stories do you need to see about college athletes being expected to stay out of academic programs that interfere with their sport before you accept this reality? Or do you just not care about it? Athletic excellence can exist outside the confines of pro sport preparation. I salute players who can pursue sports and education at the same time. I do not support our schools becoming post-grad IMG academies.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: disappointing upcoming Ivy basketball season Author: John Harvard [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:11:07 06/27/24 Thu Although amusing, some of these posts appear to be overstating issues in favor of some narrative. If I want that, I'll just tune into tonight's debate. Otherwise, Ivy sports will go on, our student bodies will remain admirably diverse, and everyone (even hopefull, the Lions QB) will likely remain unscathed. These are remarkably unhinged times, or at least the most extreme since 1969. Hopefully, we can put escalating and doomsday concerns aside, at least when discussing Ivy Sports.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Maia Ramsden Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:25:06 06/27/24 Thu While waiting to tune into tonight's debate as suggested by JH, I surfed by ESPNU and its rebroadcast of the women's 1500 meter championship final. It was so fun to see the familiar crimson "H" nestled in the pack among the bright yellow of Oregon and the other power conference jerseys. With about 600 meters to go after a very slow pace, Ms Ramsden decided that she had waited long enough. She put down the accelerator like a NASCAR racer coming off a banked turn, pulling away from the field in dominating fashion. There was a good battle for second place, ten meters behind Ms Ramsden, who coasted to defending her outdoor title. Brava.