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Date Posted: 20:49:32 12/22/02 Sun
Author: Miguel G
Subject: Re: what are the reasons for being an athiest?
In reply to: Callus Clyde Ball 's message, "Re: what are the reasons for being an athiest?" on 11:04:18 12/18/02 Wed

Interesting post Ball but I see many errors and weak arguments in your view....

let me address them one by one....please excuse my poor typing skills!....

First of all you mentioned that "it has been found to be quite accurate with regards to the historical academics crowd."

~ That is not true at all! The bible has been found to have many errors, (politically and socially driven) twists of the truth. There are things mention in the bible that historical records and archaeological evidence prove that they most likely didn't take place (such as the Moses freeing of the people from and living in the desert for 30? years). I could go on but I'll end with saying that the bible is a mix of a little history, fables, and falsehoods to fill in the gaps.

Then you go on to say that " the wars of the bible DO have a logic to them."

~ also untrue... There are wars that the bible justify with the slanted view they give on the enemy involved. Recent discoveries have shown that some of the facts mentioned about some kings and enemies were untrue. They were loved by the people and now according to the experts the things mention in the bible were just a form of political propaganda forced by the ruling power.

Next you justify killing everyone with this comment..."Had the biblical warriors conquered their enemies and kept the women, cattle, and money they would be 'conquerers' and it could be said they were out for the same rewards as the Romans ie profit, and greed, etc....Destroying Hitler with fire bombing and atomics of the Japanese did include destruction of EVERYTHING. Just like in the bible. Our cause was Just."

~ I'm sorry but I have to say that its talk like this that scares me. Killing everyone for what you think is right is no better than what we see happening right no. The Nuke and Fire bombs weren't ment to kill off everyone thay were just a form of war. The fact that many innocent people were killed in the process is never soemthing tha should be justified, instead should make us think and act more carfully next time. If a war or action of some sort is needed to stop something that is wrong then so be it. Once the problem is eliminated let the innocent be free to rebuild. If everyone involved (or in the country) agrees with the point, right or wrong, then as long as they are not harming or mistreating anyone than its their right to make that choice. If religion has taught you to justify killing then I'd say its a point for the athiests.

you seem to justify the killing in the bible so "to prevent the spread of disease that a 'dirty' or unsanitary evil enemy 'without a God' might contain."

~ please tell me you don't agree with this. You must be just trying to give a historical understanding concerning these wars!?

You mention "As for the DeadSea scrolls, who is to say that the scroll writers didn't have and anti-christian bent?"

~ Thats a very weak argument I could say many things like that about religion but its best to keep the arguments where the evidence is not just through conjecture. Every point I've made has been based on conclusions and evidence from historical and archaeological experts (most of whom are very religious and feel that the truth is whats most important!)

Next you say "I have a belief that men and women that reject religion also reject authority and a certain responsibility for their actions."

~ well that maybe a belief or your opinion but there is no proof that it has a grain of truth. I'm athiest but I lead a more honest and wholesome life than a lot of religious people I know. I won't go as far to infer the opposite idea but I do know other athiests who are just as wholesome. Religion doesn't set our moral standards, we do. If we believe in it and teach it, the god factor isn't needed. Also, Recent evidence has show that cooperation with others is part of out genetic make up!

You also infer that "men and women that reject religion .....attempts to find the single, however tiny, reasoning to justify the action." such as adultery.

~ I think religion in many point in history has done this many many times...even just recently. There is no evidence that shows me that non-religous people do it ( or commit sins to apply this to) any more than anyone else. As for religion, well, many examples race to mind so fast that I can't guess what would be the best example....

next up you ask "what harm does a belief in religion have on a person?"

~ Again look at history, early and recent. Look at the death, destuction and cruel treament of people in the historical path of religion...all for what they though was the right way for others to live and think. Remember, When religion was the ruling force in the world, it was called the 'Dark Ages'... read up on what happened when religion controled things and you'll understand why it can be dangerous. If religion is approached from a more personal point not a political school with laws told by superiors in the political ladder than it maybe harmless... and I can feel comfortable with that.

Next..."The system works..."

~ thats your opinion. I as I mentioned above, if we lived in a world where we all try to meet on a common groung no matter what belief or non-belief we have, we repect each other and work together to reach a common goal, than the system would be working but there's the rub. I know many if not most free thinkers and athiest (at least those I'm aware of) are working toward this goal but I think others parts of society still are pushing for just thier point of view nand don't play well with others. So I have to conclude that the religious system still has its problems. There are many other issues I could bring up (including Sexual molestation in Boston...cover-up) that show problems in the SYSTEM.

You continue to say "Religion makes the believers do right and good when there is no other reason to do so..."

~ well thats a double edged sword......sometimes what they think is right is very wrong too. I think I've already pointed this out earlier. Recent histry should drive that point home. I'd love to babble on more about it but I think there is no need.

~~ You're right when you say its all about choice. Unfortuantly most religious sects don't seem to respect someone elses choice. They feel a need to force thier way of life on others. I never have once tried to do that. I share and will defent my beliefs if challenged but if you choose to believe than so be it. If I see a wrong being done, no matter from what religion of school of thought it comes, I will step in and do what I can to stop it.

I can sit hear and babble about historical, archaeological, sceintific, sociological.. etc..etc.. evidence that show why there is most likely no god at all. I chose to believe in the science conclusion because it makes sense and has the facts to show this. Hey in all of the time mans existed, we've acomplish more in the past 300 years. Why? Because we decide to apply the scientific methods of thinking to our life. look where it has brought us. I think we should trust in it. This in no way proves there is no god though. Hey, science always looks to prove no disprove. At the moment I will leave the god hypothesis for others to toy with until better evidence is brought foward. I try not to make choices base on blind faith. Since my choice may be incorrect I do respect others choices as long as they do not interfer with the positive growth of knowledge, life, and all other aspects of our world and the people on it. I do know may religious people who are friends and priests who are friends who are fine examples of the community so I say power to them, but the also understand and repect my views as I do thiers...and we both chose to ignore and see through these differences in though to find what are common beliefs and goals are. You know what, after all this god, no-god fog has cleared we've found we think a lot more alike than you might expect!!! After all I have said I hold no prejudice toward any sect. I try judge people for who they are and how thay live. Give it a try.


Well, I'm not sure if I've really gotten my point across but there you have it!

~Miguel

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