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Date Posted: 09:13:39 06/09/06 Fri
Author: Leatherface
Subject: Rival for Western?

Who can become a rival for Western in the Mid-Con? Every school needs a rival. Football is not a problem- Illinois State or Southern Illinois- IMHO.

What about all other sports. I would guess ORU or UMKC needs to be developed as a rivalry for Western.Is there anything the athletic department - or coaches- can do to help develope a good rivalry with either of these schools? Without a rival, these Mid-Con contests become--yawn.

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[> Re: Rival for Western? -- wiuato, 18:41:26 06/09/06 Fri

No, there is no rivalry now. I believe WIU administration needs to start looking into the Horizon or MVC real soon. If they wait too long they might miss out on an opportunity to ORU or UMKC. Mid-Con = BORING!!!! If WKU leaves the GFC in the future(huge mistake, did'nt they learn a lesson not that long ago)I think SEMO is a possible good fit regionally and maybe a jump for SEMO to the Mid-Con in other sports? Who knows, if the MVC were to expand to 2 more schools, add WIU & SEMO and SEMO join the GFC then we could see a total MVC conf in football also. YSU could join the Horizon and A-10 1-aa or MAC 1A in football. Hmmmmm!

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[> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Leatherface, 08:57:36 06/10/06 Sat

I'm afraid the Horizon is not going to happen. The opportunity was there, but they didn't desire Western. The MVC is out too, no media market etc. to fit the MVC new level of national exposure. It really doesn't matter if some of Western's teams can compete, it's a business decision. I'm concerened about the money WIU spends for the Mid-Con level. Is it really money well spent vs. what Western gains. Another business decision.

I 'm starting to believe WIU should drop to D2, raise entrance requirements, strenghten programs, drop those with little student interest, and become recognized as the leading liberal arts school in the state of Illinois.

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[> [> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Neckfansince71, 09:42:21 06/10/06 Sat

"Stuck in the middle with you!" (Steelers Wheel)Sorry I have not posted in a while! I have read your thoughts and at times have shared your frustrations. One of the advantages I found about WIU in the early 70's was it was in the middle of no where! People stayed on campus during the weekend, especially all of the suburban kids that were attending at that time. That meant that football games and basketball games were pretty well attended. But we all know now that attendance not only has to do with the students but also and more importantly the attendance of fans in the surrounding area.

So what to do? Well, I don't really care about Chicago State leaving. Valpo, well, except for our association with them in the MidCon, we really don't have anything else with them in common. They happen to be a liberal arts school. WIU is not! You can find them both in the upper tier of the US News and World Report, not sure about the Princeton Review, WIU is listed as a top school for the money there. Law enforcement, well WIU is one of the very top in the nation and routinely turns away students with 25's on their ACT's who have applied. Besides the team that made it to the NCAA sweet sixteen, Valpo's teams up and down the line have been mediocre at best. Volleyball pretty good, women's tennis, qualifier, but what else????? Facility wise, with VanAlstine's vision, its WIU. It just so happens that Valpo can be found somewhere in the middle of Northwestern Indiana, and WIU can be found somewhere in the central western part of the state of Illinois, close to ??????

I guess I feel like the only way to move is up! DII, been there and have done that! Way to deep into facilities and recruiting to go back there. Will not happen! OUr only choice is to hold steady, and work to dominate in the MidCon. No one will want us until we are constant movers and shakers in the MidCon basketball tourney, or NCAA qualifiers. We have so much in common with SDSt, Southern Utah, and NDSt. What do we really have in common with IUPUI, UMKC, Centenary, or Oakland? The problem is, they are stuck way out there too.

Fact is, Goldfarb and VanAlstine are not looking back, but looking forward. There is no other way to go!!! Retreat is not an option!

jc

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[> [> [> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Leatherface, 10:33:12 06/10/06 Sat

Very good reply, and thoughtfull.I'm not one to back away from much of anything whether it be business or personal. The D2 was for discussion as much as anything. However, some decisions must be made in the future about long range goals for the athletic department, and, I'm confident these are being discussed.I'm just not much of a wait and see type.

Your comments about WIU programs at the university are correct. Sometimes I feel the publicity department needs to be more aggressive in promoting Western outside of western Illinois. I guess you've persuaded me to be more patient. It's just not in my training! If anything, I will restate that I believe the publicity- athletic and university, needs to be aggrassive.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Neckfansince71, 10:48:52 06/10/06 Sat

I would totally agree with you! I always grimace when I hear ISU's advertisements during Bear broadcasts! Just because you live in a small town does not mean you have to have a small town attitude! My dream retirement job is going from high school to high school recruiting students for WIU. If you look at the strategic plan it talks about recruiting and increased visibility!!! Heck, my WIU flag flies everyday from my home in Wheaton! Went to the Sox game last night and wore my WIU hat and the radio guy from the SCORE, Chris R noticed it and we talked some Gateway football. He is a ISU grad!

The bottom line is, we need another great year in football, and a break out year in men's basketball. I would say that if Thomas does not get it done this year, he is going to be on a short rope! He has gone back to recruiting hungry players instead of well fed players with names!

I have enjoyed your posts and recognize your frustration. Have felt the same way many times. I thought the North Central Conference was a good fit back in 1974 basically because we were playing alot of those teams. Just so happens, SDst and NDst were members of that conference. Things are sure to get more interesting before they get boring. Also, the MidCon office has alot of repect for WIU. I get the feeling that they look at WIU as the capital of the MidCon! Stuck, right in the middle!!!!!!!

jc

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[> Re: Rival for Western? -- Rabidrabbit, 18:13:30 06/13/06 Tue

Look to the Ex-NCC'ers for good rivals. Hopefully both SDSU & NDSU will be mid-con members before the end of the summer (this Rabbit is hopeful :-) ) Likewise, UND is looking for opportunity to jump to I-AA, and D-I for the other sports. Get them through the transition years ('08 for the SU's) and we'd love to be on your schedule for all the sports we currently share. Once UND goes D-I, look for most of the larger NCC schools to go D-I.

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[> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Leatherface, 18:22:31 06/13/06 Tue

I think North Dakota State and South Dakota State could be good rivals for WIU. They offer all sports, and the schools have a lot in common with Western. Here's hoping they get in. Yes, I have read the NCC is in trouble. The Fighting Siuox would be good, even a good Gateway possibility.Don't know what the rest of the Gateway would feel, but, NDSU and SDSU too! It's nice to see such enthusiasm coming from the Dakota's.

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[> Re: Rival for Western? -- MikeWIU, 12:06:24 06/23/06 Fri

Valpo has won regular season/conference tournaments in a few more sports than listed, just to be correct. Liked you stated, their men's basketball, volleyball, & women's tennis; they have also experienced past/current success in women's soccer, men's soccer (mid 90's I believe), women's basketball, and have made strides in softball. As far as academics go, you cannot really compare the two well.

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[> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Leatherface, 16:23:49 06/23/06 Fri

Mike- I don't follow you. Are you saying Valpo is a rival of Western's?

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[> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- MikeWIU, 22:38:37 06/25/06 Sun

Leatherface, no I am not saying Valpo is a rival. Necksfan had mentioned that Valpo's teams have been mediocre at best. I was just pointing out that a good portion of their sports teams have had success. The sports that have really kept them down when it comes to Commissioner's Cup standings are T&F, & Swimming/Diving.

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[> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- Neckfansince71, 05:12:58 06/26/06 Mon

As far as academics go, you cannot really compare the two well.
Mike, what does this statement mean? I hope your not saying that you would hire someone from Valpo instead of WIU just because they went to Valpo! Or am I getting just a bit to sensitive in my old age?

Guess my problem is not with Valpo, but with the Horizon League's stature which is solely a result of basketball and nothing else!!! Have you ever seen Green Bay's other athletic facilities? When was the last time a Horizon Baseball team got to the final 16? Track All American's? Unfortuantely, the only thing that matters is the number of invitations to the big dance!!!

jc

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[> [> [> Re: Rival for Western? -- MikeWIU, 07:50:23 06/26/06 Mon

I am saying that you cannot compare the universities academically as well, because they are a little different in what they offer with degree programs.

Even though I have a WIU degree, I do know that VU is ranked #2 for Master's level universities in Midwest, and we are #61 according to US News & World Report (generally used by soon-to-be HS grads in assessing academics). When I go for my Master's, I do not see any issue with going to a school such as VU because of academic reputation.

As far as baseball reaching final 16, yes the Mid-Con has that over the Horizon. But, you also have to take into account that there is really only 1 competitive team on a NATIONAL level in baseball, meaning being able to beat the best from the south like ORU can. Without ORU, our conference is the same as Horizon in baseball. Simple fact is that southern schools are generally a bit better in baseball due to playing outside more often growing up, and that a lot of the Midwest top talent goes to those schools as well for more exposure.

I do believe that Butler has a good T&F program that has earned All-Americans, and I think a National Champion in the mid 90's (?). Horizon has wins in men's soccer in the tournament as well. My knowledge is limited here, but just by reading their site you can see they are competitive in most sports. Overall, the Horizon is a more competitive conference, even though I like the Mid-Con.

I am not trying to upset anyone, I just try to be more real in my view of opponents. I do not like to take the approach that the school/conference I went to was the best, and everyone else is not good (I am not saying anyone takes this view either).

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