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Date Posted: 10:30:33 11/23/16 Wed
Author: Mr. Magoo isn't even this short-sighted
Subject: Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig
In reply to: wake up 's message, "Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig" on 11:59:56 11/22/16 Tue

Here are a few responses:

My goodness. I swear we get a post like this once a month, I imagine from the same person. Last time it was Megan Guza getting ripped for supporting college journalism.

She directed people to college websites saying they provided the BEST coverage of the strike. She not only "supported" college journalism, she threw her own company under the bus.

Now it's Luis for supporting a fledgling startup that many people are justifiably excited about.
The Incline is direct competition against The Trib's electronic edition starting up in December. For anyone at The Trib to publicly support a competitor is just amazing.

One of the biggest stories in the country right now is the effect fake news distributed on social media had on the election. Every day, the gap between employed PR professionals and employed reporters grows.

These are the existential threats to the industry. We are, to a large extent, all in this together, regardless of who is signing our checks. That is why it's an industry norm to acknowledge a competitor's good work publicly.
You stand up for a fellow reporter or company when they're threatened with arrest or something that undercuts all our freedoms. You don't rah-rah the company that is going to take clicks and views away from your company.
And I have yet to see The Incline do "good work." The Pittsburgh Potty story sealed it for me as to how far out of touch this site is.
Hey, we're cool, we're hip! Let us educate you about what a Pittsburgh Potty is!
That's a lesson the newcomers should have kept to themselves. We know what it is. We live here.

I'm sure the newspaper wars were fun way back when. And I'm not going to sit here and say we need to let go of that spirit entirely and tweet out one another's stories every day.
Luis, on his Trib Twitter account, hailed the competition. On his company account. If you think that's OK, then you just go ahead and sing your hymnals and feel good about supporting your fellow journalists while the money behind your paycheck withers away.

But if you care about good journalism, you need to wake up. Supporting the industry is far more important than narrowly focusing on the #Brands every second of every day.
Tell that to the hundreds of Trib employees that lost their jobs.

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Replies:

[> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- Get some glasses, 17:52:37 11/23/16 Wed [1]

Pretty sure Guzza called it "good on the ground coverage." And the Incline isn't trying to be a traditional outlet. If you looked, you'd see the post and link to stories from both papers and the TV stations. They're competing with upgruv.

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[> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- wake up, 23:59:00 11/23/16 Wed [1]

I don't think someone who's making Mr. Magoo references in 2016 should be giving lectures on short-sightedness. I do think it's a good thing that your notion of the Internet as a digital newsstand is going extinct.

We're not competing over someone's 50 cents at Giant Eagle. We're competing for people's time. And the competition between each other for that time is enormously less important than the competition between local journalism and kitten GIFs. Or journalism and dank memes on Facebook.com/ObamaSecretMuslim. Or journalism and whatever press release some flak is trying to pass off as something that looks exactly like a legitimate news story to the many, many people who lack basic media literacy skills.

Any time either newspaper, or the Incline, or any reputable, independent local news sources can demonstrate to people that local journalism is worth their time, that's a win for the entire industry. Someone who finds value in good journalism at the Trib is more likely to find value in good journalism at the Post-Gazette, and vice versa.

So when Megan Guza directs people to a student newspaper, she is not costing the Trib a reader. She is creating a reader of journalism who is more likely to read the Trib later. Or maybe even in the next Chrome tab over! And when Luis Fabragas promotes a the Incline, he's not promoting a competitor, he's promoting journalists.

Again, there are obviously reasonable limits on when and where this is appropriate. But if your first reaction any time you see anything like this is to jump on Voy and try to make that person look like an idiot, you demonstrate that you fundamentally misunderstand the digital media environment and where journalism fits into that.

Our survival, not as newspapers or websites but as an industry, is not a given. So if you care about your brand, you have to care about the industry.

Again, please join the rest of us in 2016.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- Going to sleep, 11:00:01 11/24/16 Thu [1]

If this is the attitude of most journalists, I don't want to be one anymore.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- Enemy Forces, 12:03:01 11/24/16 Thu [1]

"And when Luis Fabragas promotes a the Incline, he's not promoting a competitor, he's promoting journalists."

I'm with you most of the way, but while he is promoting journalism (yes, that's a good thing) he is nonetheless promoting someone whose business plan includes selling directly against the Trib -- the soon-to-be all-digital Trib. Not to mention a competitor that likely "curate" a story or two from them in time.

It's all well and good to be civil and treat them professionally as an opponent instead of an enemy. It's another thing to lavish praise on them.

Maybe they'll quote him as a blurb in their marketing kit.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- Media Man, 16:44:56 11/24/16 Thu [1]

This might be the best summation of the current situation of the news industry in Pittsburgh I have read. Very well written! Agreed that all papers are better off when we promot journalism.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Why Luis Fabregas will never measure up to Frank Craig -- Cool vs. Real, 13:58:45 11/25/16 Fri [1]

Yes, it's best to "promot" (sic) journalism, if we're talking about REAL journalism, not the curation and abject silliness that dominates UpGruv and The Incline.

These are speculative ventures, one from the ruins of Trib Total Media and the other from a Philly company who got some Gannett backing. Significant time will pass before it's clear if either of them, or similar ventures around the country, are viable. Just as as some won't accept the days of print are numbered, others, mostly younger, don't want to believe these new sites may not be the second coming. This may be their ticket into a new era of journalism, one with fewer standards and a greater emphasis on clickbait nonsnese. Or it may not be.

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[> [> [> [> Grow up -- Responsible adult, 04:16:57 11/25/16 Fri [1]

This is not the first time a post with an older pop culture reference has gotten a snarky "anyone who brings up [blank] should be lecturing on short-sightedness" or whatever. There seems to be a faction who feels so obsessed with the future they deny and disrespect the past, and how it all ties together. This is likely rooted in their inability of understanding how history, the present and future work together. That's a sad commentary, but some of this "new generation" of millennials who are supposedly transforming Pittsburgh and journalism reveal their own acute tunnelvision with this chip-on-shoulder attitude.

It is fair to say some of us remember the Press and PG newsrooms when Greatest Generation reporters still working bitched about writing on a computer terminal, favoring their ancient Smith-Coronas or IBMs.

People want news in smaller bites, compatible with smartphones, pads, etc. They like news on social media, apparently despite the fact so many sites are rife with the much-discussed "fake news."

While you are correct that good journalism is good no matter what the platform, perhaps you who are solidly in sync with The Incline or UpGruv would be so kind as to enlighten the doddering oldsters over 35 about the great journalism done by either of these sites since they opened. I see a lot of snark and fatuous BS masquerading as news, obviously there to impress the narrow group who feel this and this alone is the cutting edge.

Megan Guza tried to make a point but revealed her own limitations by phrasing it poorly, in such a way that it was misinterpreted. Obviously her friends feel she was mistreated. It was her own poor articulation that caused this problem, not the people who blasted her on Voy. And guess what, young folks? Local papers, reporters and editors were getting blasted on Voy before MySpace, prior to Facebook and Twitter, and well before you had your middle school photos taken.

I'll make you a deal: I'll join you in 2016 (I already have, really) when you admit that pop culture is an ongoing entity doesn't just center around Kanye, Justin Bieber and what's there right now. Batman, Superman, etc. go back long before any of you. I'll buy your arguments when you accept the reality the "digital media environment" you tout so loudly and abrasively remains a work in progress, far from being refined. Likewise, the tone of your remarks prove that you, like that digital media environment, have yet to mature.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- Adding to the great points by Responsible Adult, 15:50:46 11/25/16 Fri [1]

So you think it's OK that cool chick MJ Slaby ended a story about Pittsburgh's budget with this...\_(ツ)_/
If you think that's clever and has any place in a "news story," then, as Mrs. Landingham once said to President Bartlett, "Well, God, Jed, then I don't even want to know you."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- Interpreter, 22:16:48 11/25/16 Fri [1]

It all comes down to a bunch of silly, shallow children, playing at being "cool," "hip" and "cutting edge" and wanting to call themselves "journalists." They grind out immature nonsense to mask their indifference to addressing serious newsworthy issues. Called on it by actual journalists of all ages, they flip to a defensive posture, explaining how their nonsense is the future and all else is the past. It's like they're just playing around on social media and getting paid for it. Something cool to do until their dream PR job comes along.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- Except for..., 14:47:29 11/27/16 Sun [1]

People like Dan Gilman have embraced The Incline. I fear the bar for quality journalism has been set to ground level.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- wake up, 00:15:45 11/26/16 Sat [1]

You're moving the goal posts of this conversation. My purpose isn't to sell you anyone's journalism. It's to explain a normal behavior you and others on the board seem to be baffled by. You're not offering any sage wisdom that's being denied or disrespected here. You're projecting norms of the past onto a platform you don't seem to understand, then ripping people with them, and that deserves to be called out as misguided.

Furthermore, it's pretty rich to demand respect when your meme of the "millennial" (scare quotes yours) journalist seems to be a vapid husk of a human being walking around town telling the olds "Yep, I've figured out the Internet, here's how you do it," and showing them a crappy listicle with a smug look on his or her face.

In fact, no one is claiming to have all the answers. Most of the Under-35s have been mentored by plenty of boomers and respect them. A lot. And I think that's a mutual feeling for most of the boomers who've taken the initiative to lead instead of snipe about The Way It Used To Be from the peanut gallery.

Diverse skill sets and points of view are good. This is an industry that's lacked them for way too long, and the fact that you apparently feel threatened by that doesn't make that a generational struggle. It just offers a pretty convenient window into how we got into this mess in the first place.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- Responsible adult, 00:43:37 11/27/16 Sun [1]

You've tried berating the critics of the not-so-brave new world of online digital journalism by inferring they are all out of touch. You've done your share of mockery. It hasn't advanced your arguments or given them greater credence. You've earned the ridicule you've gotten.

Now, you fall back on the oldest trick in the book. "You're moving the goal posts." "You misunderstand me." You lament that some here have stereotyped Millennials by saying they're silly and shallow, yet you never ONCE offer a defense for things like the unmitigated garbage MJ Slaby posts at the Incline.

Why? Because you can't.

We don't have all the answers, nor do you, you insist. Yet you keep asserting anyone who disagrees with or challenges you is living in a temporal rut, well before the year 2016.

We are well aware not all younger journalists are enamored by the blather of Incline and UpGruv. By the same token it's amusing to see some editors trying to advance their careers on proclaiming themselves as being on the digital frontier. That doesn't always work out. Ask the high-level ex-PG editor who was supposed to take them into the 21st Century who quit this past summer.

You and your allies are no more a threat than those fools who insist all journalism should remain analog, the equivalent of "get a horse!" in the early days of automobiles. It's noise and posturing. In your case, you enjoy kicking it around and wisecracking, but when your points are solidly refuted, you hide behind the tried and true: "You're picking on me and distorting what I've said!"

In short, you have yet to prove your point while doing much to validate the criticisms of those who disagree.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- wake up, 15:53:36 11/29/16 Tue [1]

At no point in this conversation have I demanded you like the journalism at Upgruv or the Incline, so I'm obviously not going to indulge your itch to debate their legitimacy with a response. We all have our tastes, and if those outlets and writers don't speak to you, don't read them!

What I took exception to in the original reply is the ignorance of where we stand as an industry. It is important to acknowledge good journalism where it exists, and it's not productive to cut up on people for innocuous comments like those made by Megan and Luis. This is an industry norm now, and explaining to you why you should update your thinking on this particular issue is not the same as demanding you like everything about the digital environment.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Grow up -- Watt Izitt, 08:32:31 11/26/16 Sat [1]

Is this the difference between creative writing and journalistic writing? Is it the difference between feature writing, with a twist of opinion maybe, and straight news writing?

Remember, journalism in straight news stories is not about self-expression as much as about giving people the truth, the light so they can find their own way in a democratic republic.

Good writing is surely to be celebrated, as the talent to do it is a gift that has to be worked at to turn it into an advanced skill. But there is writing and writing.

Could it be that the misunderstandings or differences of opinion are all over labeling and mislabeling? Do people want to be sure news writing is not labeled opinion or free-style, stream-of-consciousness creative writing, and vice versa?

While journalism has always included editorial pages and oped pages came along, with letters to the editor, journalists will quickly distinguish between opinion pages or columns and "objective" news stories, either hard news or features. Is that line fuzzier now due to developments in "media" that even blur the line between news and opinion and advertising and maybe even entertainment?

As newspapers have gone down to the development of the new cyber advertising media, has the shakeout, which includes so much experimentation, actually harmed journalism and its core reason for being -- to inform people with facts? The other reality is news is a product that people will either buy or not, yet no one should be surprised that experimentation is throwing everything at the wall to see what will stick, what will sell. Time will tell what survives, as many still want to make sure the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bath water.

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